-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Waypoint: When I Visited South Park As A Trans Woman, The Joke Was On Me
- Thread starter Cream
- Start date
South Park making a game with a landmark trans protagonist reminds me of Sammy Davis jr and the Rat Pack. On one hand his mere presence in the group was progressive and a huge deal, but then you go back and watch videos and drunk Sinatra is making racist jokes at Sammy's expense on stage and everyone in the crowd is laughing, and the best you can say about it is that hopefully it will open a door for someone else to sneak through with a better message.
Lol did you even look at that link? Jewish is first, followed by Hindu, and even Atheist outscored most denominations of Christianity. Such privilege!
Two things:
1) The mods got together to discuss Hollywood Duo's ban. As we realized that his post could be taken in a few ways - ignorance, malice, or just poor wording - we decided to reduce his ban to one month instead of a permaban.
2) This topic is about the representation of transgender individuals in South Park. If you can't stay on that topic, leave the thread. This is the last warning.
1) The mods got together to discuss Hollywood Duo's ban. As we realized that his post could be taken in a few ways - ignorance, malice, or just poor wording - we decided to reduce his ban to one month instead of a permaban.
2) This topic is about the representation of transgender individuals in South Park. If you can't stay on that topic, leave the thread. This is the last warning.
So you are not going to address the claim, "White Christians, in the U.S. at least, are the powerful advantaged majority" that you cannot disprove?
Seeing how we are on this topic because posters would argue that jokes on white christians are just as harmful as jokes on trans individual. Which is false. Prove me wrong.
Support the argument that South Park joking about White Christians is equivalent to joking about trans individuals. Since that is what we are discussing.
Me thinks we can start a thread in OT about this. Given the issue at hand of the thread is, of itself, pretty serious IMO
As a big South Park fan, I can definitely understand why these examples would be concerning but as apparently several of them occur regardless of gender I don't think they're necessarily transphobic in themselves. I'll have to play for myself and see.
Regardless, it could've been handled better. The series is certainly not exempt from criticism.
Regardless, it could've been handled better. The series is certainly not exempt from criticism.
And they are one of the first big name games to include a transgender option. Let's not pretend like there wouldn't be missteps the same way we shouldn't pretend they did this with malicious intent.
I do want to say that whether or not they had malicious intent doesn't really matter that much. The only thing that matters to this conversation is how trans people are portrayed in the game. Even if it was an act of love towards trans people that they just managed to fuck up, well then it was still a fuck up. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the easiest way to fix issues like this is to hire trans writers.
Nobody is under the impression that this was done with malice.
But the byproduct is malicious in it's delivery.
First, I totally agree that the portrayal was at least mishandled - although I personally think it's not awful, it's not my place to argue about that.
I just want to say something about the people who are saying "You shouldn't expect anything better of South Park" or things like that, because they already did it better. They had a episode on the show dealing with trans issues and it was well-received at the time (well, I saw trans people speaking favorably of the episode, it's not just me). And, I mean, it's one of the first games (maybe the first big one? I don't know) to offer that option, so, yeah, I think people have the right to be disappointed, even if "it's south park".
I just want to say something about the people who are saying "You shouldn't expect anything better of South Park" or things like that, because they already did it better. They had a episode on the show dealing with trans issues and it was well-received at the time (well, I saw trans people speaking favorably of the episode, it's not just me). And, I mean, it's one of the first games (maybe the first big one? I don't know) to offer that option, so, yeah, I think people have the right to be disappointed, even if "it's south park".
My Hero Academia has a similar issue (hasn't been adapted to the anime) w/ some things in the LGBT sphere where the author is clearly making an earnest attempt but is still ending up with some missteps despite the honest intentions.
That seems like the situation here-the NPC jokes read innocently in most contexts but take on accidental overtones, but I'm not sure how much of that is avoidable w/ their style of humor. Other parts of the game are more of an issue where stuff just seems "off". I wonder if some of the gender options were brought in later in the process, as reverting to having NPCs just use male pronouns in a game that explicitly lets you pick out your gender and gender identity is.....really weird and seems like something that should not be happening in a game that spent this long in development. There's also the whole choice w/ Kanye's Momfish thing where it's neither satirical or trying to do anything with the imagery, it's just *there* in whats otherwise a funny sendup of Kanye's ridiculous mobile game.
It's stuff that's weirdly off for them as creators relative to both Stick of Truth and the modern seasons of the show.
that doesn't make them immune from criticism. especially when the joke they make isn't funny.
and I don't think "equal opportunity offender" is a good enough defense for anyone at any time. it's lazy and stupid.
So, on South Park going by her account, it does sound like it's pretty damn lazy "humor", and I understand completely why she would be pretty disappointed. When introducing a trans option in character creation, I guess you wouldn't expect that choice to only mean you get treated like trash for awhile. Sounds like she maybe she is at least partly misinterpreting some things that are non-gender specific due to her real life experience. It's tough to tell if some dialogue is semi random or only occurs due to other choices (like some other RPGs). I think when joking about a disadvantaged group, the joke isn't really going to hit unless there's something to play it off of. Basically, where the bigoted asshole becomes the butt of the joke or gets some kind of immediate comeuppance. Otherwise it's just the character getting bullied.
Quoting in case others didn't see it:
Quoting in case others didn't see it:
I know rednecks are assholes. I don't need a game to constantly call me a terrorist or a paki or any other list of terms as a way of the it trying to endear itself to me. Unless this is the KKK who i am literally about to set aflame with some molotov cocktails, I don't have interest in being constantly bombarded with this shit in a game. And judging from this writer's experience, neither does she.
South Park went for the weakest fucking attempt at a joke.
You do fight them. We all know nazi's are assholes, do we need the nazis in Wolfenstein to use so much nazi imagery or slogans?
And it's only ever the same 3-4 generic people using the joke. The main quests and game itself all but fucking ignores this stuff once you pick it.
Its like I said earlier. This type of comedy is mean and lazy all at once. If they were going to put a trans player character in the game they could at least make more characters react to it or matter in that playthrough, but they don't even have that. So its all very half assed.
Are these not just generic locals with incidental dialogue that are throwing these comments at random? These certainly aren't characters you're fighting.
I was talking about when you walk out of the school and the redneck gang attacks you. You did use the word redneck.
As with any peace of media you don't enjoy, just don't consume it. I'm not a big fan of South Park myself.
No defense needed tho. As with other kinds of humor, there is always more behind other than the crude jokes.
so game uses same "jokes" on all characters? If so, thats something else then...
But in general, there should be a topic about this stuff in gaming in general, it is very difficult to get this right - if we are to agree that trans people are likely the most vulnerable group, should they be included in such games at all? Or is exclusion worse?
I dont plan to play South Park ever, so someone should check out if they really treat all characters the same or they have special insults for trans people.
A few thoughts that aren't new but I think bear repeating.
1. Just because something's said to every player does not make it ok. If you only play the one time as a trans character, are you supposed to look up every line to see if it's unique or not so you can tell whether you're supposed to feel uncomfortable? Because that's what you're proposing when you say "but everyone gets that".
2. "South Park is always like this and you should know that in advance" doesn't make any sense as a defense. Someone who says bigoted things to you every day is still a bigot. South Park always being like this is a condemnation, not a defense.
3. Them "offending everyone" isn't a defense either. A couple people in this thread have implied that it's a benefit, because you can just wait for an episode that's funny for you. But that would imply every other episode is neutral or positive, instead of shitting on different (groups of) people. Some of which deserve it, and many of which are just marginalized people trying to live. Attacking both is not a plus; it just makes your actual attempts to say anything weaker because all you really care about is shitting on anyone at all.
4. Just having random characters spout harassment at you isn't satire. Furthermore, even if it's set up as satire having to encounter the same (dangerous, potentially escalating to violence) shitty comments you get in real life isn't exactly funny. At best the satire in this situation would be for the benefit of cis people who can go "hah, I get it, it's like how they treat trans people in real life!", not for the benefit of trans people.
1. Just because something's said to every player does not make it ok. If you only play the one time as a trans character, are you supposed to look up every line to see if it's unique or not so you can tell whether you're supposed to feel uncomfortable? Because that's what you're proposing when you say "but everyone gets that".
2. "South Park is always like this and you should know that in advance" doesn't make any sense as a defense. Someone who says bigoted things to you every day is still a bigot. South Park always being like this is a condemnation, not a defense.
3. Them "offending everyone" isn't a defense either. A couple people in this thread have implied that it's a benefit, because you can just wait for an episode that's funny for you. But that would imply every other episode is neutral or positive, instead of shitting on different (groups of) people. Some of which deserve it, and many of which are just marginalized people trying to live. Attacking both is not a plus; it just makes your actual attempts to say anything weaker because all you really care about is shitting on anyone at all.
4. Just having random characters spout harassment at you isn't satire. Furthermore, even if it's set up as satire having to encounter the same (dangerous, potentially escalating to violence) shitty comments you get in real life isn't exactly funny. At best the satire in this situation would be for the benefit of cis people who can go "hah, I get it, it's like how they treat trans people in real life!", not for the benefit of trans people.
This is definitely something I was weary about whenever I got to the game, even if I had the courage to pick that option (and not just go with a cis girl this go around.) South Park, is at best, clumsy with understanding these issues, and at worst... uhh, they were an example of using humor in a way that'd mainly serve to keep trans people closeted. :/
Put yourself in the shoes of a trans person or anyone playing as a trans character, and imagine hearing these quotes directed towards you. If you had no idea those were generic comments, would they not all come across as transphobic, and perhaps not dissimilar to comments made in real life? Someone earlier already mentioned hearing the word "abomination" used in general conversation about trans folks. Just because they happen to be said to everyone in game doesn't excuse the tone deafness of it I feel.
Ignoring the games existence doesn't help. If every trans-friendly person just ignored every piece of transphobic media (whether malicious or accidental), instead of using these moments to start important conversations like this, what does that achieve?
I don't want to make this political but for example, as a liberal, I could just ignore everything that comes from Fox News and Breitbart because I don't enjoy or like it. Or I could challenge what is said by those outlets, because I don't believe what they say is fair, or true. I criticize because I value what is right over what is convenient.
If you laughed along when South Park ripped Scientology to shreds, or found the AIDS episode hilarious, or didn't mind how they skewered any number of celebrities. But now find it all a bit mean and not funny when it pokes fun at something that you care about, maybe that says more about you than Matt or Trey.
It's a shame that the first major release that allows you to play a trans character immediately insults you for it. I think I said most of what I had to say in the last thread, but it's fucking nuts how the show normalises prejudice behaviour in that there are folks who I know aren't racist folks, but had no issue saying coon when referencing this game without bringing up the fact a huge amount of the laughs the game goes for is calling people coon.
Did you really just compare Scientology with being trans or a racial minority? Also I don't think it's fair to have a go at people for things they found funny when they were probably a kid. I think defending certain aspects of South Park's humour at this point says more about a person than somebody's reaction to it.
Did you really just compare Scientology with being trans or a racial minority? Also I don't think it's fair to have a go at people for things they found funny when they were probably a kid. I think defending certain aspects of South Park's humour at this point says more about a person than somebody's reaction to it.
Last edited:
That's part of the humor of South Park. The entire population of the town is largely depicted as ignorant, stupid, and/or just plain terrible people. The reaction is meant to be "Jeeze, the people in this town", rather than "jeeze, the directors". Even the theme song makes fun of it by being the complete opposite of reality.
"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody ... in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article."
I feel like the first part of Poe's Law is really important with this kind of humour. You can't just regurgitate something like transphobia and expect it to be parody.
I feel like the first part of Poe's Law is really important with this kind of humour. You can't just regurgitate something like transphobia and expect it to be parody.
You don't think there were Scientologists who found that episode deeply upsetting and offensive? That was OK? South Park has insulted and mocked many parts of my culture, race and religion. I'm just not hypocritical enough to bitch about it while laughing at all the other things they mock and insult that doesn't impact me.
The problem is that the way it's presented doesn't touch hard enough on the "these people are nuts" aspect and a bunch of people's takeaway is "these people think the same things I do and validate my shitty opinions". I remember being a shithead kid who saw South Park and so did a bunch of other classmates, and I remember that we said just absolutely horrible fucking things to the Jewish kids in school. I grew out of it, but some of the classmates from back then didn't.
I mean, good for you? Fucking stand on your ivory tower, lording your superior mentality over everyone. How dare people get offended at offensive things? Why can't they just sit down and take it like a good little minority? Get over yourself, dude.
You are not born a Scientologist. These two things are not on par.
OP
OP
Do you want to point me to all of the Scientologist getting killed?
What I think is that choosing to believe in a religion that actively exploits vulnerable people out of their cash, kidnaps people, destroys family/friend relationships, and demonises psychology is distinctly different to being born a certain way isn't the same.
Last edited:
This is not a simple issue and it is not the same as criticism of trash media like Fox News or Breitbart.
It is important to know if some comments are generic - same for everyone or not. It shows context.
If they are the same, then I am not sure what exactly could they do - not include trans character? Not include all/most/many other minority groups? Simply not make offensive show and content (ie ban offensive shows like South Park)?
What exactly is your take on solution in this case?
Funny, I watched South Park and found a way to not insult Jews.
I could say that about any religion. Can I now insult muslims and jews?