Waypoint: When I Visited South Park As A Trans Woman, The Joke Was On Me

[Falconbox]

Each character in South Park has their own personality, and you can generally tell ahead of time how people will react to many situations.

Kyle will always be the most open to differences, as will Stan. Cartman will often be bigoted toward them (unless he's using them for his personal gain, in which case he'll defend them to the death), Kenny will usually be cool with just about anything, Butters will be confused and not understand, Cartman's mom won't care, Kyle's parents are generally really conservative and will be upset, Butters' parents are disciplinarians and will punish for literally anything, and Stan's parents are generally pretty open.

My point being you've got to know the world you're stepping into. If you're oblivious to South Park, I don't think the game or the writers should necessarily worry about how you will interpret things.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Funny, I watched South Park and found a way to not insult Jews.

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Others didn't though. I'm pretty sure I would have never heard somebody use "Jew" as an insult growing up if it wasn't for South Park.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

The problem is that the way it's presented doesn't touch hard enough on the "these people are nuts" aspect and a bunch of people's takeaway is "these people think the same things I do and validate my shitty opinions". I remember being a shithead kid who saw South Park and so did a bunch of other classmates, and I remember that we said just absolutely horrible fucking things to the Jewish kids in school. I grew out of it, but some of the classmates from back then didn't.

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Yeah. I had a couple of kids in elementary school who thought it was hilarious to make fun of me for being Canadian because of South Park. That's kids though. As an adult, I think it's easy to see it as the parody of the casual awfulness of the masses that it is. The Canadian jokes also come off as funny to me because of the ridiculousness of it all whereas they really annoyed me when I was a kid.

I think the joke before every episode says it all about the tone of the show. "Due to its content it should not be viewed by anyone."

 

[BraiM]

Imagine being Jewish, black, Mexican or Muslim etc and be made fun of in the most racist possible ways imaginable in South Park for over 20 years.

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I can tell you now that it is not very nice. One example from a recent episode had a hologram of a black man walk through the police station, and the police, and I quote, were talking about how they were unable to choke him despite him being black. And all I can think is, wow, I hope I don't get choked. And if I do I hope I they don't get away with it. And if they do, I hope I won't have to suffer from the people making jokes about it. Have anyone writing those jokes been black, or choked? I really don't think so. I'm not upset, or disappointed, just a bit worn out about it.

 

[monketron]

What I think is that choosing to believe in a religion that actively exploits vulnerable people out of their cash, kidnaps people, destroys family/friend relationships, and demonises psychology is distinctly different to being born a certain way. That was okay, those are fine marks because Scientology is obviously a shitty thing.

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Never said you had to find it funny. Plenty South Park jokes that I felt missed the mark or just weren't funny at all. A fair bit of the recent stuff to be fair. I just accept that I'm sure there were jokes over the years that I found hilarious that other people probably found deeply offensive and it would be a bit hypocritical of me to get on my high horse about how I'm offended and you shouldn't tell those jokes, when I would have mocked people for doing the same about the jokes I didn't find offensive.

 

[mac]

Others didn't though. I'm pretty sure I would have never heard somebody use "Jew" as an insult growing up if it wasn't for South Park.

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Kinda feels like a cop out. But, in the end you learned a lesson and became a stronger person for it. For that you are a stronger and smarter person than most.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I have my own opinions on punching down/punching up/punching everyone and all that stuff that encompasses South Park (and comedy in general), and while there's a lot about the article I don't agree with, I do appreciate when they are written.

I'd say it's good to hold Matt and Trey's feet to the fire, but I feel like they progress at their own pace, and they definitely HAVE progressed on trans issues. Compare Mr. Garrison's Fancy New Vagina (a pretty clear cut case of trans-erasure) to The Cissy (a progressive take on trans rights that falls on the "correct" side of the bathroom issue).

So yeah, while I do think there were missteps, I can't imagine the intent was malicious. I definitely think getting actual trans writers on board would help the transition toward more inclusive portrayals in media in general, but hey, you gotta start somewhere. More than anything, it's just bizarre to me that South Park of all games is the first "AAA" to have a possible trans protagonist.

Now if we're talking about stuff like "the joke is on the bigots, not the vulnerable minority", well that's a much wider discussion that goes way beyond the scope of this thread. My TLDR conclusion has mostly been people are really stupid when it comes to both understanding satire AND making it, and I don't know what the solution is beyond the unrealistic scenario of people always being around to contextualize jokes for those that don't get it.

 

[spwolf]

Others didn't though. I'm pretty sure I would have never heard somebody use "Jew" as an insult growing up if it wasn't for South Park.

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I think this thread can serve as reminder to all of us parents to talk to their children, constantly, about being considerate of other people and their feelings, etc, etc. Realistically they are going to see shows like this even if they are rated 15+, 18+ or R depending on the country.

If they dont, their friends are and they will tell them all about it... So we need to educate kids better at home, about whats right and whats not right, so that they wont do the same as other kids when it comes to insulting someone for being different.

i.e. i would be very disappointed if my kid made fun of someone in school because of their gender, race, religion or anything like that and I would be sure to point out that to them, and try to teach them differently. Parenting is not simple or easy and things need to be repeated constantly for it to stick into their heads. But it will stick and it does all start from home.

 

[monketron]

Scientology = Transgender, people. You heard it here first.

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No need to be facetious. That is not what I said at all.

 

[Cream]

No need to be facetious. That is not what I said at all.

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You made the comparison. You put it out there. You can't take it back.

 

[mac]

You made the comparison. You put it out there. You can't take it back.

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I think you made the comparison.

 

[CannonFodder52]

If you laughed along when South Park ripped Scientology to shreds, or found the AIDS episode hilarious, or didn't mind how they skewered any number of celebrities. But now find it all a bit mean and not funny when it pokes fun at something that you care about, maybe that says more about you than Matt or Trey.

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This seems to place Scientology and this topic on relative levels.

You don't think there were Scientologists who found that episode deeply upsetting and offensive? That was OK? South Park has insulted and mocked many parts of my culture, race and religion. I'm just not hypocritical enough to bitch about it while laughing at all the other things they mock and insult that doesn't impact me.

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Why even compare to Scientology if you don't think it's near equivalent.

 

[deepFlaw]

I think you made the comparison.

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You compared trans people being mocked to Scientologists being mocked.

Which is a ridiculous comparison to be clear. People aren't "offended" just because the show/game happened to direct some insults at one group or another. It's entirely about power dynamics and hurting people (and encouraging further hurting) when they deal with enough just for living their lives as is.

 

[TheClaw7667]

Put yourself in the shoes of a trans person or anyone playing as a trans character, and imagine hearing these quotes directed towards you. If you had no idea those were generic comments, would they not all come across as transphobic, and perhaps not dissimilar to comments made in real life? Someone earlier already mentioned hearing the word "abomination" used in general conversation about trans folks. Just because they happen to be said to everyone in game doesn't excuse the tone deafness of it I feel.

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How should the developers/writers handle this? Should they avoid using any type of disparaging comments towards the player? Or change the dialog depending on which gender is chosen? Maybe give a language option before the game starts asking the player if they want to hear offending statements towards them?

I haven't played the game yet so I have no first hand experience with it so I'm not sure how different the NPC dialog is compared to Stick of Truth. If it's similar to the first game, most of the awful stuff said comes from the awful, racist characters.

Ill say as a fan of South Park I'd be weird if Cartman started being a normal, moral, kind human being. He's not. Almost everything that comes out of Cartman's mouth is offensive. He's the most awful person in South Park. I'd be weird if the redneck characters didn't hate everybody. They don't like anybody that isn't exactly like them. And Mr.Mackey is a clueless moron.

Now of course none of that takes away from how someone feels. I think if a person finds something offensive or hurtful then someone fucked up. Having said that, I'm just not sure how you make a South Park game that isn't going to hurt someone and/or be incredibly offensive.

 

[Spoopy]

Kotaku Splitscreen had an episode on this last week. Kirk brought up that South Park is very much still "white bro" humor and often when they are throwing grenades everywhere they miss and make marginalized groups the butt of their jokes.

Also Jason if you are reading this the word coon is modern and prevalent and South Park is gas lighting with that low hanging non-joke. It is not an outdated word.

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yeah, I was surprised he wasn't aware of this.

 

[ashep]

I do want to say that whether or not they had malicious intent doesn't really matter that much. The only thing that matters to this conversation is how trans people are portrayed in the game. Even if it was an act of love towards trans people that they just managed to fuck up, well then it was still a fuck up. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the easiest way to fix issues like this is to hire trans writers.

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But the thing is, there's nothing wrong with the portrayal of the trans character in the game. Where offence is being derived, is the shitty reactions of other characters to your trans character.

I'm sure it's still offensive to hear those words no matter the context but that's an important distinction.

 

[mac]

You compared trans people being mocked to Scientologists being mocked.

Which is a ridiculous comparison to be clear. People aren't "offended" just because the show/game happened to direct some insults at one group or another. It's entirely about power dynamics and hurting people (and encouraging further hurting) when they deal with enough just for living their lives as is.

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To be clear, I did not say that. It was another member.

But the power dynamics between scientologist and transgender people would be quite murky. But yes, I agree. Elizabeth Moss and Jenna Elfman will never face the same daily oppression a tran person does. And the TV show has shown willingness to be more inclusive of trans issues even if they are sloppily done. That's how South Park works for the most part. They announce their intentions and then sloppily blast it in your face.

 

[Cream]

Apologies for twisting monketron's words.

Even though I still completely disagree with his position and his argument in literally every way. And think it's grossly misinformed.

 

[mac]

Apologies for twisting mac's words.

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You owe that apology to someone else. I wasn't the one you quoted.

 

[Cream]

You owe that apology to someone else. I wasn't the one you quoted.

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You're right. Edited.

 

[monketron]

This seems to place Scientology and this topic on relative levels.


Why even compare to Scientology if you don't think it's near equivalent.

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Fine. I just randomly threw Scientology in there. Why don't we change it to people of colour, or Jews or Muslims? If your only problem is that I picked Scientology as the example then you're missing my point.

 

[Cream]

Fine. I just randomly threw Scientology in there. Why don't we change it to people of colour, or Jews or Muslims? If your only problem is that I picked Scientology as the example then you're missing my point.

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Alright but plenty of black people have vocalized their disapproval of south park's "jokes" recently too, myself included. The kanye's mom joke was what made me boycott the game because of the black face and mocking an innocent and dead black woman.

Also apparently in the game you help the police beat up and arrest black people?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

To be clear, I did not say that. It was another member.

But the power dynamics between scientologist and transgender people would be quite murky. But yes, I agree. Elizabeth Moss and Jenna Elfman will never face the same daily oppression a tran person does. And the TV show has shown willingness to be more inclusive of trans issues even if they are sloppily done. That's how South Park works for the most part. They announce their intentions and then sloppily blast it in your face.

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How is it murky on any level?

 

[mac]

Sigh

You compared trans people being mocked to Scientologists being mocked.

Which is a ridiculous comparison to be clear. People aren't "offended" just because the show/game happened to direct some insults at one group or another. It's entirely about power dynamics and hurting people (and encouraging further hurting) when they deal with enough just for living their lives as is.

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To quote myself

To be clear, I did not say that. It was another member.

But the power dynamics between scientologist and transgender people would be quite murky. But yes, I agree. Elizabeth Moss and Jenna Elfman will never face the same daily oppression a tran person does. And the TV show has shown willingness to be more inclusive of trans issues even if they are sloppily done. That's how South Park works for the most part. They announce their intentions and then sloppily blast it in your face.

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Do some research before saying I said trans are the same as scientologist.

 

[mac]

How is it murky on any level?

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Would you treat a Scientologist differently than a non? Would you treat them better or worse than a transgender person?

Maybe you have a chart that lists the rankings of minority figures in the USA but I don't.

 

[Rowlf]

After discussing it with the moderator team, all bans from this thread have been lifted. To be clear, referring to being transgender as having a "mental illness" will not be tolerated. Please PM a moderator if you have any questions about that.

I would also like to issue a general reminder to argue civilly with each other and in good faith. Other warnings have been issued in this thread on that point as well.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Would you treat a Scientologist differently than a non? Would you treat them better or worse than a transgender person?

Maybe you have a chart that lists the rankings of minority figures in the USA but I don't.

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Look into the history of Scientology? I outlined some of my issues with it in another post. Even at that point I think it's unfair to put people who choose a religion on the same level as somebody who's born in a certain way.

Also I kinda don't know what a non is?

 

[monketron]

Alright but plenty of black people have vocalized their disapproval of south park's "jokes" recently too, myself included. The kanye's mom joke was what made me boycott the game because of the black face and mocking an innocent and dead black woman.

Also apparently in the game you help the police beat up and arrest black people?

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That's cool. Lets be clear. There's nothing wrong with finding South Park unfunny, offensive and race bait-y if you wish. More power to anyone who feels like that. My specific point (and one I'm probably putting across badly) is that it's a bit annoying to me that some people have no problem with South Park (and comedy in general) offending people, UNTIL that comedy turns it's eye to something or someone they care about.

 

[Cream]

That's cool. Lets be clear. There's nothing wrong with finding South Park unfunny, offensive and race bait-y if you wish. More power to anyone who feels like that. My specific point (and one I'm probably putting across badly) is that it's a bit annoying to me that some people have no problem with South Park (and comedy in general) offending people, UNTIL that comedy turns it's eye to something or someone they care about.

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But you shouldn't use that as an excuse to decide "they are ALL okay because some of you are hypocritical!"

You wouldn't dismiss discrimination and oppression of black people because there are some black people that make racist jokes about Asians.

 

[mac]

Look into the history of Scientology? I outlined some of my issues with it in another post. Even at that point I think it's unfair to put people who choose a religion on the same level as somebody who's born in a certain way.

Also I kinda don't know what a non is?

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A non-Scientologist.

And no, I don't think it's unfair. If a Indian person is disgusted by the Indian caste system and they choose to become a Sikh they should not be less defended by the oppression they face than a person born gay, transgender, or disabled.

 

[deepFlaw]

Sigh


To quote myself


Do some research before saying I said trans are the same as scientologist.

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...why did you quote the exact same post you already responded to as if I'd said something new?

Apologies for confusing you with another user but I don't understand the point of doing this.

 

[Robin]

I'm a transwoman and I gotta say after over a decade of South Park trashing on transpeople I have zero interest in their new "nuanced" take on anything. I'm not callin' people bigots for liking South Park or anything but I feel like they have added nothing of value to the conversation and this game stands only to make transpeople feel shitty.

 

[mac]

...why did you quote the exact same post you already responded to as if I'd said something new?

Apologies for confusing you with another user but I don't understand the point of doing this.

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I guess it was a mistake. What is your question?

 

[ashep]

I've kinda argued the other side in this thread but the bottom line is that nobody should feel shitty about their identity when playing a game, no matter what that game is.

If that's happening here then the creators of that game should be called out for it and criticism is warranted.

Except Nazis. Nazis should always feel shitty.

 

[deepFlaw]

I guess it was a mistake. What is your question?

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I mean my literal question was just why you were acting exasperated by the exact same post you responded to already, since it was uncomfortable for me given how it framed my question. Which you've answered.

But if you want me to reply to you for some reason:

Would you treat a Scientologist differently than a non? Would you treat them better or worse than a transgender person?

Maybe you have a chart that lists the rankings of minority figures in the USA but I don't.

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Nobody's asking you to have a chart or something. But with no disrespect meant, if you do not understand the difference in how these two groups are currently treated by society, the amount of power they have, and what actions they've done, it might be a good idea to google a bit before entering this conversation.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

A non-Scientologist.

And no, I don't think it's unfair. If a Indian person is disgusted by the Indian caste system and they choose to become a Sikh they should not be less defended by the oppression they face than a person born gay, transgender, or disabled.

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I don't see how Sikh's are comparable to Scientologists? You need to stop with this all religions are the same bullshit.

 

[ashep]

I don't see how Sikh's are comparable to Scientologists? You need to stop with this all religions are the same bullshit.

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C'mon now, that didn't happen.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

I can tell you now that it is not very nice. One example from a recent episode had a hologram of a black man walk through the police station, and the police, and I quote, were talking about how they were unable to choke him despite him being black. And all I can think is, wow, I hope I don't get choked. And if I do I hope I they don't get away with it. And if they do, I hope I won't have to suffer from the people making jokes about it. Have anyone writing those jokes been black, or choked? I really don't think so. I'm not upset, or disappointed, just a bit worn out about it.

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Same here. Such humor can work and for sure be great sometimes to have a conversation about a difficult topic. Sometimes as a release and even funny. But after 20 years of the same shit I don't see any of that. All I see are 2 idiots out of touch stuck in puberty beating a dead horse for as much money as they can make while their fans call it satire and smart. It isn't either.

 

[BraiM]

Same here. Such humor can work and for sure be great sometimes to have a conversation about a difficult topic. Sometimes as a release and even funny. But after 20 years of the same shit I don't see any of that. All I see are 2 idiots out of touch stuck in puberty beating a dead horse for as much money as they can make while their fans call it satire and smart. It isn't either.

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Exactly. I've just seen everything there is to see about racial humor, even while generally trying to avoid it, so everything is already old and worn out. There's only so many times you can make the same joke, right? ... Right?

 

[ChestRockwell]

Same here. Such humor can work and for sure be great sometimes to have a conversation about a difficult topic. Sometimes as a release and even funny. But after 20 years of the same shit I don't see any of that. All I see are 2 idiots out of touch stuck in puberty beating a dead horse for as much money as they can make while their fans call it satire and smart. It isn't either.

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Well, they do have three Tony awards and a Grammy on their mantlepiece. I'm not sure you can attribute all of their success to prepubescent morons.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

Well, they do have three Tony awards and a Grammy on their mantlepiece. I'm not sure you can attribute all of their success to prepubescent morons.

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Opinions can change, time passes and new perspectives presented as the world changes. When it comes to talent for toilet humor especially in song I can't argue or deny that others find their short animation on tv to be great workmanship.

 

[mac]

I don't see how Sikh's are comparable to Scientologists? You need to stop with this all religions are the same bullshit.

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You can pretend I said that if it helps you but other people see through it.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Opinions can change, time passes and new perspectives presented as the world changes. When it comes to talent for toilet humor especially in song I can't argue or deny that others find their short animation on tv to be great workmanship.

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Parker and Stone earned those awards for their Broadway musical "The Book of Mormon". Completely unrelated to South Park, by the way.

This is the very same Academy which recognized and awarded Rent, Kinky Boots, Hamilton, etc.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

Parker and Stone earned those awards for their Broadway musical "The Book of Mormon". Completely unrelated to South Park, by the way.

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I know. It isn't South Park. It is a musical hitting liberals and Africans for shits giggles.

But on the topic of South Park.

 

[ChestRockwell]

I know. It isn't South Park. It is a musical hitting liberals and Africans for shits giggles.

But on the topic of South Park.

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Since you asked, I snatched this quote from Principal Victoria in an episode of South Park from season 18 (aired in 2014). It's announced near the end of the piece and I think it offers a shortcut to their ideology on transgender politics.


"Anyone who has a problem sharing a bathroom with people who might be transgender will have to use the special designated bathroom designed to keep them away from the normal people who don't care"

I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

Since you asked, I snatched this quote from Principal Victoria in an episode of South Park from season 18 (aired in 2014). It's announced near the end of the piece and I think it offers a shortcut to their ideology on transgender politics.


"Anyone who has a problem sharing a bathroom with people who might be transgender will have to use the special designated bathroom designed to keep them away from the normal people who don't care"

I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

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And how is "principal Victoria" portrayed in South Park, what's her role in the story, what makes you think that is satire?

As I said I think they are ignorant out of touch people who never had to grow up with sad opinions. Not saying they are evil. In 20 years I never saw anything to change that in fact my views of them and their show have just gone downhill.

 

[GhostTrick]

I was made pretty uncomfortable with the PC principal thing and told the Ubi rep when I played it.

The game, and South Park in general, are lauded for being shock humor and you're the fool for not appreciating and loving it. It has an inborn defense for anything it may handle poorly and I felt like that would be true if I wrote about that in my preview.

It's not sick, it's just bad, and I wish we could have a larger discussion about South Park and stuff like this without people going "That's just South Park, man! You know what you're getting into!"

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But is is South Park. And when I say that, I'm not saying "They make fun of everyone" but more like "It's gross, dumb and not funny".

Not an excuse for the experience the writer had to go through by playing this game and the complaints are definitely justified. But yeah... It is South Park, so subpar writing and unfunny jokes are the stuff expected there. And even though there was some appeal to play a trans character... Let's say I'm not surprised of how bad they treated the theme here.

 

[osa]

And what were you playing as? Because I haven't seen them in any of the cis playthroughs, none of those comments.

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I saw all of them in a cis-playthrough; "i dont see gender", "tiny Liberace" etc. I played as a cis-gendered straight male and still got treated like shit by the rednecks and Jared and other characters still made the same remarks I've seen here.

On my playthrough, the rednecks "not taking kindly" to people like my character was "sort of" funny because of the absurd switcharoo.

HOWEVER.

I understand this is what people are frustrated about: the game manages to invoke thoughts about how fucked up it is to treat people different from you poorly. If you play a cis-character, mostly. I can see how a transperson playing a trans character, encountering these scenes, it doesn't really hit home as a joke, but as the same way they might get treated in real life every day.