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wccftech.com: Why The PS5’s 10.3 TFLOPs Figure Is Misleading

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amstradcpc

amstradcpc

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Oct 27, 2017
1,768
Decarb said:
I feel like this is the first time people in console space are hearing about variable frequency based on workload as a new concept.
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Thats the problem, shouldnt exist in a console. First time ever to and for what?for reaching the double figures in marketing. And why, for going cheap with a 300 mm2 chip (or less).
Yeah the cus are bigger and bla bla bla, then why the chip isnt at least as big as PS4's one?.
 
BubblegumNemesis

BubblegumNemesis

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Feb 1, 2018
5,241
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gofreak said:
The proposition is that:

1) Heat varies with workload, not just clock

2) Often - but not always - workloads would safely allow higher clocks than what they fixed in previous consoles. Safely, meaning, they could run those worloads at higher clocks and stay within the power/thermal limit of the console

3) Based on that, why not run those workloads at a higher frequency when you can?

The downside of a fixed frequency is that you're fixing it for an assumed worst case workload - such that the system won't break when a very intensive game comes along - and potentially leaving clockspeed on the table for a range of other workloads that could have sustained something higher without breaking the machine's heat dissipation limits.
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So basically you are saying the same as the OP, that these are just peak numbers. It doesn't make sense to have this in a console IMHO. Again, the only reason I can think of is to influence the cooling and save on money building the cooling. Downside of fixed clock rates? If your cooling can handle it, there is no downside.
 
Diarrhea Day-Lewis

Diarrhea Day-Lewis

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Oct 27, 2017
20,761
Mark Cerny said he believes both processors will spend the majority of their time at peak clock, so I assume they can do it 99% of the time. I'm sure the XSX GPU is variable in that it's peak is 1.8Ghz but not everything will push it to there; will it?

I feel like people are making more out of this than there is. Sure, the wording is a little vague but this is a developers talk. If they had just released a spec sheet and never mentioned variable clocks, which I imagine devs are aware of for all platforms, we would have all just accept the 10.3 TFs #

Cerny said it will be there most of the time, so why do we expect them to release a box that can't sustain it for an entire play thru of say God or War 2?
 
bcatwilly

bcatwilly

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Oct 27, 2017
2,483
Digital Foundry has had developers working with the PS5 dev kits share with them as noted in the post below that they must make a choice when designing their game of whether full power is provided to the GPU or CPU at any given time because it can't be full power to both. That maybe doesn't matter too much for current generation level/cross gen type games because of the headroom provided by both the new CPU and GPU, but it is absolutely a fixed design constraint that will result in compromises in places for true next generation games that won't be a factor with the fixed frequency/full power to both CPU and GPU on the Xbox Series X.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/nx...a-new-generation-is-born.176121/post-30071054
 
Decarb

Decarb

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Oct 27, 2017
8,643
amstradcpc said:
Thats the problem, shouldnt exist in a console. First time ever to at leats reach the double figure in marketing.
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Why shouldn't it exist in consoles? The Switch already does this and helps immensely with heat, battery and loading speed. I'm actually surprised it took them this long and two consoles with shitty cooling to finally solve it this way.
 
gofreak

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
7,736
kc44135 said:
I know nothing about tech, so keep that in mind. But... Reading this, and how the GPU is going to be operating at it's maximum limit at almost all times (if I am understanding that right)... Um, isn't that, like, going to lead to overheating stuff? Have they said anything about the cooling system, and more importantly, the noise level of the system? Because I absolutely can't stand my Pro anymore, it is as loud as my Vacuum Cleaner lol.
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Part of the rationale for this system is that it allows them to know, and control always, the heat produced in the system, and keep it within the (hopefully quiet) capacity of the cooling system.

Part of the reason your Pro jet-engined in certain circumstances is that they got it wrong in fixing the clocks for the 'assumed worst case'. Here they don't have to make that prediction.
 
Dizastah

Dizastah

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Oct 25, 2017
6,124
Geez, this thread is awful....and so is wccftech. People need to do their research. DF and plenty others explain this well.
 
cakely

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
After reading that article, I think I'll avoid ... "wccftech.com" in the future. It was poorly-written.

Is everything else from that site equally low quality?

EDIT: Oh, god, I just read the rest of the thread. It's nearly all console wars, I'm out.
 
Hu3

Hu3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,587
amstradcpc said:
Thats the problem, shouldnt exist in a console. First time ever to and for what?for reaching the double figures in marketing. And why, for going cheap with a 300 mm2 chip (or less).
Yeah the cus are bigger and bla bla bla, then why the chip isnt at least as big as PS4's one?.
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" Don't try new and smarter stuff ", stick to the old and tired ways. Innovation bad. Same old same old good.
 
gofreak

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
7,736
BubblegumNemesis said:
So basically you are saying the same as the OP, that these are just peak numbers. It doesn't make sense to have this in a console IMHO. Again, the only reason I can think of is to influence the cooling and save on money building the cooling. Downside of fixed clock rates? If your cooling can handle it, there is no downside.
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The downside is that for some workloads, your fixed system is leaving performance - potential increased clockrate - on the table. XSX could run even faster with some workloads, safely. It won't, because they've fixed for what they assume their cooling solution will need to handle in a worst case.

A console is ideal for this. You have a fixed, known heat dissipation envelope. Why not let the clock rate float up and gain that performance, where the workload allows it?
 
Ada

Ada

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Nov 28, 2017
3,735
The biggest issue with the PS5 design imo is that by pushing the clock so high they have dramatically increased the power and hence the cooling required to run the console(price goes up). Cerny even mentioned by dropping the clocks slightly you get a big reduction in power draw. So Sony obviously knows its a problem.

Another huge issue is the serious lack of CUs compared to XSX. I expect RT performance to suffer heavily and like the PS4pro/X comparisons the PS console will be a disadvantage in resolution when pushed hard.

I think the XSX architecture is much better thought out. Going by the cooling system they showed off it looks like they hit the power performance sweet spot(same vapour chamber heatsink combo).
 
HeavenlyE

HeavenlyE

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Oct 27, 2017
3,800
amstradcpc

amstradcpc

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Oct 27, 2017
1,768
gofreak said:
Part of the rationale for this system is that it allows them to know, and control always, the heat produced in the system, and keep it within the (hopefully quiet) capacity of the cooling system.

Part of the reason your Pro jet-engined in certain circumstances is that they got it wrong in fixing the clocks for the 'assumed worst case'. Here they don't have to make that prediction.
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Thats an excuse, thats because they have always put shitty fans, except for in some PS3 models.
 
kc44135

kc44135

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Oct 25, 2017
4,721
Ohio
gofreak said:
Part of the rationale for this system is that it allows them to know, and control always, the heat produced in the system, and keep it within the (hopefully quiet) capacity of the cooling system.

Part of the reason your Pro jet-engined in certain circumstances is that they got it wrong in fixing the clocks for the 'assumed worst case'. Here they don't have to make that prediction.
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Right, gotcha.
 
ty_hot

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
I didn't like this text, it starts from the premise that Cerny is lying and assumed the leaked value as the true one. Then goes and uses the variable clock that the text itself implied was a lie and then applied it to the Series X while still saying "u know Microsoft even underclocked it so lets go and overclock it like the PS5!".

It also affirms that having a variable clock is objectively worse when in fact it can be benefical. You can never know if you will need a bit more juice for the CPU or for the GPU.

Other analysis were a lot better.
 
gofreak

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
7,736
amstradcpc said:
Thats an excuse, thats because they have always put shitty fans, except for in some PS3 models.
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No matter how good a cooling system they put in there, they have to make a prediction about a safe clock rate. That problem goes away if you make more constant the heat dissipation and vary the clock instead.
 
ShapeGSX

ShapeGSX

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Nov 13, 2017
5,224
Calabi said:
Isn't it the same with the Xbox Series X, though? You can't sustain 100 percent load 100 percent of the time, any consoles TFLOPs will fluctuate as the scene and requirements change.
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If you coded something to sustain 100% load all the time, the Xbox Series X would maintain its Clocks and performance.

The PS5 would have to choose what to downclock, the CPU or the GPU. Or both? We would have to understand the power model they are suing to know.
 
Munstre

Munstre

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Mar 7, 2020
380
HeavenlyE said:
I'm really starting to wonder why more people on Era aren't world class engineers, to correctly diagnose fatal flaws in Cerny's work that he's spent years on in just a couple days is insanely impressive
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I've read some vague stuff on the internet from random people so I think I know everything there is to know about console architecture, so when I say Cerny is a fraud, you can take that to the bank.
 
Rosol

Rosol

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Oct 29, 2017
1,397
Does Cerny have a history of lying or making misleading statements? I'd love to see a list - because you know who would know the PS5 hardware better than the system architect himself? We had a lot of people thinking he was deliberately misleading and hiding the "fact" that ps5 would only play about 100 PS4 games - which turned out to be hogwash.

It's kind of sad to see what's happened to the world, where we live in this state of constantly distrusting people and authority figures. It's like in the age of Trump we've arrived at the 'everyone's lying' belief - where we can't ever trust anyone; and we fail to properly examine the background and history of the individual or entity in regards to judging that trust. I'm not saying Cerny is a saint, but what evidence do we have that he's deliberately misleading us?
 
Darkstorne

Darkstorne

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Oct 26, 2017
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What I'm realizing is that both consoles are so powerful in different ways that it won't be an easy choice this time around (for those of us not crazy enough to swear loyalty to a company).

Current plan is to wait a month or two after they launch, watch DF videos on multi-plats, see how the UI appeals to me from each console, see how the exclusives stack up, and decide what best fits my use case from there. But while the current gen was a very easy decision after the E3 showcases, I think this gen will be like choosing between ice cream and cookie dough... I'm going to want both, but just can't financially nor practically justify that.
 
BubblegumNemesis

BubblegumNemesis

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Feb 1, 2018
5,241
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gofreak said:
The downside is that for some workloads, your fixed system is leaving performance - potential increased clockrate - on the table. XSX could run even faster with some workloads, safely. It won't, because they've fixed for what they assume their cooling solution will need to handle in a worst case.

A console is ideal for this. You have a fixed, known heat dissipation envelope. Why not let the clock rate float up and gain that performance, where the workload allows it?
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So once again you are saying these are peaks?
 
Ostinatto

Ostinatto

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Oct 30, 2017
2,543
So Cerny is lying about the 10.28 Tflops? and the PS5 has 9.2 Tflops in reality?

This is what some people are saying here.
 
BobLoblaw

BobLoblaw

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Oct 27, 2017
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While this is a fascinating conversation, I don't think we'll get the real answers until devs have had some time to work with it (and are willing to go on record). The more important (off topic) subject for me is cooling. Can't wait to see what sort of feedback we get on that. We need to see the design now!
 
rokkerkory

rokkerkory

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Jun 14, 2018
14,128
Once everyone accepts that xbox is more powerful the better. We can then focus on what really matters: games.
 
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