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How do you like your puddles?

  • The entire game should take place inside a huge puddle

  • As big as Insomniac's artists want them to be

  • As deep as my knowledge of game development

  • I prefer oceans tbh

  • Don't go chasing Waterfalls


Results are only viewable after voting.
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MaLDo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,404
No, I'm saying the game looks just as good as it does in that first gif, it's different sun setting + traffic patterns that are making it look less appealing to you rather than downgrades. The pic I posted is lighting + traffic setting close to the first gif and looks just as good as it does to me.


But is not the TOD. The level of geometry is way lower in the new gif. Take a look at the corner where the pigeons are (those with aggressive LOD change). Building geometry is not the same.

Distant cars are detailed in old gif. Full LOD, full shading and project shadows. In the new one, distant cars are a block without shading (only spec on glass), without details and without shadows.

Most distant building is full LOD and shading in old gif, in the new one is not. And so on.
 
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Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
Pretty sure DoF will be toned down in the game, because although it looks great and cinematic in trailers, it is helluva distracting in actual gameplay. The Sekiro E3 trailer had crazy aggressive DoF but its gone from actual gameplay.
 

benny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
381
This.

I find all the efforts at mockery and corporate defense super-weird when going by the images there's such an obvious downgrade, for whatever reason.
Because Nirolak is having a laugh by not including the other comparisons in the OP. It is not merely one crappy youtube compressed screenshot that can be used to evaluate the claim that this game was downgraded. People have posted lots of images.

In addition to people not understanding that an artistic change doesn't mean a capability downgrade, which is what this term used to mean. You can prefer one or another, that's fine. But to actually call out a capability difference it needs to be demonstrated and seemingly nobody gives any shit to do that.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
Ok, let's try this again. Had to fix a link.

It was never really about puddles for me, and I don't really care since the gameplay still looks great and I've seen worse downgrades in the past (Dark Souls 2 for example), but people saying it didn't happen here are in denial.

Here's a different scene. 2016 vs 2018.

wOQWRpP.gif



Full res:

https://gfycat.com/FairWeeklyDodo

Traffic density, massive lighting change, and the 2016 version has no depth of field.

What in the world is with you people?

Ignore list is going to be absurdly long by the end of this holiday season.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
I can see the justification for everything but the enemy shadows in the infamous puddle shot. It's obvious they downgraded the per character shadows. I really could care less though. That's like the first thing I lower in my pc settings.

My main beef is with the new thread title dissing Ben Reilly. Mans been through enough.
 

SuzanoSho

Member
Dec 25, 2017
1,466
You know...

I find it really dumb and annoying that something as silly and a non-issue as this gets so much attention yet those same people couldn't afford a second's worth of consideration towards things like addressing diversity issues or the fact that my black avatar HAS to have fucking cornrows or an afro in damn near any non-sports video game...

A game that looks amazing literally everywhere, packed with content, an obvious labor of love, and all they can talk about is fucking puddle on the top of one building in a jungle full of them? That's what we're giving our energy to?...

I'm probably gonna get banned for this...but this culture is so damn mentally exhausting at times...
 

starfox

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,341
Portugal
Ok, let's try this again. Had to fix a link.

It was never really about puddles for me, and I don't really care since the gameplay still looks great and I've seen worse downgrades in the past (Dark Souls 2 for example), but people saying it didn't happen here are in denial.

Here's a different scene. 2016 vs 2018.

wOQWRpP.gif



Full res:

https://gfycat.com/FairWeeklyDodo
rhu rho at agressive LOD pop-up, even the rats become piggeons at less than 3 meters.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
Because Nirolak is having a laugh by not including the other comparisons in the OP. It is not merely one crappy youtube compressed screenshot that can be used to evaluate the claim that this game was downgraded. People have posted lots of images.

In addition to people not understanding that an artistic change doesn't mean a capability downgrade, which is what this term used to mean. You can prefer one or another, that's fine. But to actually call out a capability difference it needs to be demonstrated and seemingly nobody gives any shit to do that.
Yeah, I don't exactly have time to comb through a 75 page thread. Nirolak, just update the OP already.

Anyway, even *if* technically there's no capability downgrade, then it's an artistic downgrade. The 2018 version in the OP literally looks much worse, whatever change was made.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Ok, let's try this again. Had to fix a link.

It was never really about puddles for me, and I don't really care since the gameplay still looks great and I've seen worse downgrades in the past (Dark Souls 2 for example), but people saying it didn't happen here are in denial.

Here's a different scene. 2016 vs 2018.

wOQWRpP.gif



Full res:

https://gfycat.com/FairWeeklyDodo
This is inaccurate. Different time of day and traffic is dynamic and variable. This kind of graphic is hugely misleading.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I really can't wait to see your work this week. Thanks for responding to people, btw. I know it must be a grey area considering NDA's and whatnot.
Well, there's already a lot of footage out there so it's easy to understand what's going on just based on available media. I think people just don't know what they're looking at in terms of the way it functions yet.
 

Chaserjoey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,626
Well, there's already a lot of footage out there so it's easy to understand what's going on just based on available media. I think people just don't know what they're looking at in terms of the way it functions yet.
I think it definitely helps to have someone like you highlighting various functions and the different elements that contribute to a game's development. The problem is if people don't want to listen.

I'm someone who is pretty much clueless on game development, outside of some pretty basic things, so it's nice to be able to sit down and listen to people with the knowledge explain what things are, why and how they work, and some of the decisions Insomniac would have made. I think that kind of in-depth analysis is very much needed for this thread, and it can't come soon enough.
 

Couscous

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,089
Twente (The Netherlands)
Now that I have seen most of the images in this thread I say that I think that game was downgraded. I still agree with most people that the blurry pudlle image being used as evidence for the downgrade is wrong though.
 
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benny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
381
Now that I have seen most of the images in this thread I can finslly say that the game was definitely downgraded. People shouldn't defend these practices. I still agree with most people that the blurry pudlle image being used as evidence for the downgrade is wrong though.
Could you make a summary of how you came to that conclusion, that would be helpful for other readers that don't want to spend their time doing the same.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Differences are obvious to me.

2018: Spidey looks pretty darn good. Bold colour and nice lighting

2016: Everything else looks better. Way more detail in the setting, more cars, and clear fidelity. In the 2018 shot, aside from Spidey everything else is a blur.
There is literally a picture on the very page you posted that shows the same fidelity and same density in terms of crowds and cars. Not to mention the swinging GIFs on this page.

This is going to be a Uncharted 3 "downgrade" situation, isn't it? Where people keep posting the same bullshit for years to come?
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
Ok, let's try this again. Had to fix a link.

It was never really about puddles for me, and I don't really care since the gameplay still looks great and I've seen worse downgrades in the past (Dark Souls 2 for example), but people saying it didn't happen here are in denial.

Here's a different scene. 2016 vs 2018.

wOQWRpP.gif



Full res:

https://gfycat.com/FairWeeklyDodo
I've looked at this image quite a lot and have even posted it myself. My final findings would be:

Additions - Depth of Field / Birds

Changes - Building to the right is completely different. I tend to think it looks a bit less detailed, but I'll leave it in this section regardless. Time of day and therefore traffic density. Texture on floor of building Spider-man leaps off of is also different.

Subtractions- Exhaust vent is missing. Smoke, presumably from vent, is therefore missing. Coiled wire that you need to almost freeze the gif at the very start to see is missing.
 
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Sangetsu-II

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,503
Yeah, I don't exactly have time to comb through a 75 page thread. Nirolak, just update the OP already.

Anyway, even *if* technically there's no capability downgrade, then it's an artistic downgrade. The 2018 version in the OP literally looks much worse, whatever change was made.

What the hell is an artistic downgrade!!?

Like art is in the eye of the beholder. You don't see me criticising Da Vinci Mona Lisa because she isn't smiling. Da fuq.
 

Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,701
I'm sorry, I can't do that since I'm not an expert on this subject. I can only judge it with my eyes and I don't know all the terminology.
Then don't make definitive statements if you aren't an expert. I can't tell if there are legit people thinking this is real or we all keep taking the bait over and over again
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
What the hell is an artistic downgrade!!?

Like art is in the eye of the beholder. You don't see me criticising Da Vinci Mona Lisa because she isn't smiling. Da fuq.
Calm down bro. Sorry for not using "in my opinion". Although I would say I'm surprised -- at least, judging solely by the comparison in the OP -- that it's not a more common reaction ITT.

Let me be clear: in my opinion, the 2018 pic looks worse. I don't know or care why. It just does.
 

Deleted member 32359

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
319
The only clear "downgrade" that I imagine will be there (as for almost every other open world game) is the number of NPC, vehicles, details on objects in long distance and a few textures not being as clean as in some trailers.

DF says that different time of day can change that so we'll see but that's an easy trade off that is often used. You had 20 NPC there, just put 10 and PS4 will stop going in rocket mode.

Also I'm giggling a little because if industry was focusing on the important things (art style vs. graphic power) they wouldn't have these reactions. They made people to be like this so in a way it's deserved.

Review thread will be fun.
 

Abominuz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,550
Netherlands
Cant a mod ask the OP to update the first page ? For the sake of repeating the same every page when someone new comes in. There is a lot of proof it was not downgraded even from the devs themselfs.
At least that way we can filter the trolls out.
 

Deleted member 32359

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2017
319
I think that right now, downgrade or not, even for Insomniac it doesn't matter. What matters is the perception of their target demographic. And with all the fuzz this makes we can at least all agree that many gamers are seing a difference and some prefer the previous version.
Now I wish they all stopped with the hype trailers with too many promises.

If you make people dream almost with graphics you can be sure that they'll ask for what they dreamt about... sadly it's their dream, trailer are here to make people want the game but they now project their own "perfect" version of the game and just don't want anything else (even if it's obviously not solid reasons to dismiss a game).
 

Philippo

Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
7,915
Well, there's already a lot of footage out there so it's easy to understand what's going on just based on available media. I think people just don't know what they're looking at in terms of the way it functions yet.

Which is?
Honest question as someone who's trying to catch up.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,623
Calm down bro. Sorry for not using "in my opinion". Although I would say I'm surprised -- at least, judging solely by the comparison in the OP -- that it's not a more common reaction ITT.

Let me be clear: in my opinion, the 2018 pic looks worse. I don't know or care why. It just does.
That's the underlying issue to this whole thing. People are classifying a downgrade as "in my opinion, the 2018 pic looks worse. I don't know or care why. It just does". Instead of realizing there's a difference between subjective personal preference and technical downgrade, they define a downgrade as I liked the other one better, so it's a downgrade, regardless of any other context
 
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Slacker247

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,063
Fuck.

I think all these years I've been pronouncing Reilly wrong. My life has been a lie.

Edit: multiple pronounciatons. I'm good. rie lee it is!
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
Because Nirolak is having a laugh by not including the other comparisons in the OP. It is not merely one crappy youtube compressed screenshot that can be used to evaluate the claim that this game was downgraded. People have posted lots of images.

In addition to people not understanding that an artistic change doesn't mean a capability downgrade, which is what this term used to mean. You can prefer one or another, that's fine. But to actually call out a capability difference it needs to be demonstrated and seemingly nobody gives any shit to do that.

Yeah, I don't exactly have time to comb through a 75 page thread. Nirolak, just update the OP already.

Anyway, even *if* technically there's no capability downgrade, then it's an artistic downgrade. The 2018 version in the OP literally looks much worse, whatever change was made.

Why don't you all @ Nirolak instead of just mentioning her/him in passing?
 

17 Seconds

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,589
it's funny how resetera is making fun of this controversy so much, when this place is constantly having these same inane discussions about downgrades with every other game
 

cgcg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
430
eh the new lighting looks more pleasing. it looks more comic like which fits this game better than the old drearier lighting

the building on the right sure got a yuge upgrade tho
 
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