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Could I be right?

  • Yes

    Votes: 534 86.4%
  • No

    Votes: 33 5.3%
  • Who cares?

    Votes: 51 8.3%

  • Total voters
    618

ADee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
963
Sweden
This is just something which have been bothering me for a couple of days. But why should they just use the right to create chaos when the left have strong views too?

First of all I want to say that in a perfect world is that everyone whomever they are should be treated equal and it is a thing we should forever strive to accomplish. The gouvernment should pay bills via taxes so everyone can get their basic need (food for those who can't afford, water, free healthcare and studies up to and including university (I vote for the social democrats in Sweden))

Now to the point. I have seen many left people being attacked by someone for some awful allegedly thing he/she has done. Since many from the left hate those things they are being accused of, which leads to a hate group starts against those being accused.
I think that some, definetly not all could allege someone just to take them down. Which a puppet from Russia could do.

Am I wrong for worrying about that? Or is that something that could/is happen/ing?

PS: I decided to write this after I read the thread about Shaun King. I have never heard about the guy and I don't know if he is guilty or not.
 

Atisha

Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,331
Dividing the people, and sewing discord amongst them is part of the game. So why wouldn't they try and play every fiddle?
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,386
Seoul
The right are definitely benefitting them more directly. But there trying to use everyone to make chaos in the US
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
I don't think Russia would be opposed to using any particular ideology to their ends. What would they care.

However, be very careful to not attribute simply any disharmony or dysfunction in Western politics to Russia. I don't think the Shaun King situation has anything to do with Russia.

There has to be substance to it otherwise it's just paranoia.
 

kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,518
Accardi-by-the-Sea
The "left" like Jill Stein, yes

A key goal for the Russians is destabilization of the US. Resources on the left can help as well as the right
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
Jill Stein's a good example.

zn2DZ8Y.jpg
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
I've seen a total of two tankies here ever. I certainly see far more people complaining about tankies than people that actually are positive about the Soviet Union.

I've seen people on here equivocate for the Russian invasion of Ukraine as if it was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Every NATO thread brings them out.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,125
They will use anyone.

anyone found guilty of assisting/accepting money from a foreign power should be treated extremely harshly in the judicial system.

THey are akin to seditionist traitors, or espoinage and forefit of their citizenship.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
all of the paychecks I get for creating fake outrage say they're from something called "U.S.S.R." so I don't know anything about Russia
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
I don't think Russia would be opposed to using any particular ideology to their ends. What would they care.

However, be very careful to not attribute simply any disharmony or dysfunction in Western politics to Russia. I don't think the Shaun King situation has anything to do with Russia.

There has to be substance to it otherwise it's just paranoia.

if anything the conflict is more class based if anything

the oligarchs in russia merely use the state as a front to enrich themselves and solidify their wealth and they have found allies here in the US oligarchy that are willing to play ball through kickbacks or blackmail.

i think thinking of these issues as merely "state vs. state" is the old fashioned way of doing things
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I've seen a total of two tankies here ever. I certainly see far more people complaining about tankies than people that actually are positive about the Soviet Union.

This is a bigger problem for socialists and anarchists than you think. Their culture is steeped in idolising the Soviets terms, symbols and iconography. It blurs when they're playing it straight and being ironically aggressive to troll the libs. Does not help that occasionally speaking to a well intentioned socialist can be very difficult to tell from a tank_ie to someone not deep into that perspective. Too much can line up so while they may not intentionally mean it it can come off as being a Soviet apologist, regardless.

edit: For example, there's a reason AOC got as far as she did by speaking like a normal person rather than being a hard left socialist like saying "comrade" and "bourgeois" with a straight face.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,681
A lot of Russian bots were the ones propogating pro-Bernie stuff during the US election, so yeah. It's all about chaos, not supporting specific candidates.

I've seen a total of two tankies here ever. I certainly see far more people complaining about tankies than people that actually are positive about the Soviet Union.
Reality and Getafe's posts rarely align, I wouldn't bother.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
This is a bigger problem for socialists and anarchists than you think. Their culture is steeped in idolising the Soviets terms, symbols and iconography. It blurs when they're playing it straight and being ironically aggressive to troll the libs. Does not help that occasionally speaking to a well intentioned socialist can be very difficult to tell from a tank_ie to someone not deep into that perspective. Too much can line up so while they may not intentionally mean it it can come off as being a Soviet apologist, regardless.

This. It often bleeds across from anti western positions. I don't think I've seen a broadly obvious russian troll but I have seen plenty of people adopting Kremlin positions because they're naturally anti-west.

The subtlety of what Russia does involves stoking those extreme positions in otherwise ordinary lefties.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
if anything the conflict is more class based if anything

the oligarchs in russia merely use the state as a front to enrich themselves and solidify their wealth and they have found allies here in the US oligarchy that are willing to play ball through kickbacks or blackmail.

i think thinking of these issues as merely "state vs. state" is the old fashioned way of doing things

It kind of makes sense though doesn't it?

A lot of left wing activism in the West is grassroots, pretty hard to infiltrate and control without massive expenditure of manpower and resources. They aren't the USSR anymore, they don't have that ideological persuasiveness to talk to the working class.

Right wing activism though? You just splash around some dark money to astroturf PACs and you're golden. Much easier game for Russia to play.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
This. It often bleeds across from anti western positions. I don't think I've seen a broadly obvious russian troll but I have seen plenty of people adopting Kremlin positions because they're naturally anti-west.

The subtlety of what Russia does involves stoking those extreme positions in otherwise ordinary lefties.

Yes! Jeremy Corbyn is my go-to example for this.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
This is a bigger problem for socialists and anarchists than you think. Their culture is steeped in idolising the Soviets terms, symbols and iconography. It blurs when they're playing it straight and being ironically aggressive to troll the libs. Does not help that occasionally speaking to a well intentioned socialist can be very difficult to tell from a tank_ie to someone not deep into that perspective. Too much can line up so while they may not intentionally mean it it can come off as being a Soviet apologist, regardless.

I'm not seeing any evidence for this. Obviously some of it is there but liberals play it up as far more common than it is because it's a handy "I win" button/crudgle for internet arguments. People here have equated arguing for a
socialism to arguing for rape in the same vein.

Meanwhile of course it's going to be difficult to tell them apart when people are actively interested in making everyone to their left out to be a Stalinist. Part of understanding the difference comes with entering conversation with an open mind.
 

Psamtik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,868
One of the worst things about 2016, pre-November, was seeing otherwise reasonable, otherwise intelligent liberal friends embracing and internalizing 25-year-old far-right anti-Hillary narratives. Like, Vince Foster and shit.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
I'm not seeing any evidence for this. Obviously some of it is there but liberals play it up as far more common than it is because it's a handy "I win" button/crudgle for internet arguments.

Meanwhile of course it's going to be difficult to tell them apart when people are actively interested in making everyone to their left out to be a Stalinist. Part of understanding the difference comes with entering conversation with an open mind.

You don't need to be a tankie to spread the Kremlin message. Remember the Skripal poisoning thread?

Part of the reason you don't see many tankies here is that the majority of the politically vocal have no idea what they're talking about. Committed tankies would view this place as a liberal hell hole.
 

softfocus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
903
Look at Jeremy Corbyn...


I'm fucking kidding. Our right wing press would love me to believe that. I believe that if Russia did, it would be to make the left look bad. So maybe they're the source from some of the fake outrage, and the creation of "snowflakes", it sounds very Russian since they're so masculine over there, I mean you seen Putin on horseback?
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
In Italy, the Five Star Movement is very pro-Russian and is also more on the left side. They are likely financed by Putin's party.
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
It kind of makes sense though doesn't it?

A lot of left wing activism in the West is grassroots, pretty hard to infiltrate and control without massive expenditure of manpower and resources. They aren't the USSR anymore, they don't have that ideological persuasiveness to talk to the working class.

Right wing activism though? You just splash around some dark money to astroturf PACs and you're golden. Much easier game for Russia to play.

i agree.

the right, wanting to enforce class, racial, etc structure to ensure they can accommodate wealth while people on the bottom fight agmost themselves is a much easier target for them. especially since most of their goals actually align. most of the groundwork for them was already in play before the 2016 elections.

you're only seeing a few on the left who you could actually say are on some payroll, the jill steins, jimmy dores, etc.

everyone else are just ironic shitposters or leftists who want to dismantle capitalism.
 
Oct 28, 2017
993
Dublin
People finding Rooskies under every shadow are more of an issue for discourse on this site than people actually under Russian influence for sure.
Right? When I learnt about the Red Scare and McCarthyism in history, I didn't understand how that could ever possibly ever happen. I'm seeing exactly how these days. I see Russian hysteria everywhere.

Of course Russia could be using the left. They will try to turn everyone against each other if their aim is to weaken/destroy western democracies. They're doing a good job at it in the States where one side can't even engage with the other.
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,369
They use RT and Sputnik to concern-troll. How many did we hear : "RT is a much better source than western media. They were the only one to cover Occupy Wall Street"?
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
I'm not seeing any evidence for this. Obviously some of it is there but liberals play it up as far more common than it is because it's a handy "I win" button/crudgle for internet arguments.

Meanwhile of course it's going to be difficult to tell them apart when people are actively interested in making everyone to their left out to be a Stalinist. Part of understanding the difference comes with entering conversation with an open mind.

Go to any communist or deep soviet site and it's like discovering a secret society that still thinks the Soviet Union is awesome.

Easiest course to do that is not giving off signs that you're a Stalinist. Why bother making enemies when you don't have to? Those people are reacting to the socialist/anarchist anti-mainstream vibe who screen anyone not of the herd out by default. Check out forums like Libcom.org or Revleft. Here's an example of a post there by Now Rodman.

https://libcom.org/forums/theory/poverty-identity-politics-21052018

Another critique of IP dates back to 1987, by Jenny Bourne: 'Homelands of the mind: Jewish feminism and Identity Politics' (Race & Class, July 1987). It opens with the often-cited lines:

Jenny Bourne wrote:
Identity Politics is all the rage. Exploitation is out (it is extrinsically determinist). Oppression is in (it is intrinsically personal). What is to be done is replaced by who am I. Political culture has ceded to cultural politics. The material world has passed into the metaphysical. The Blacks, the Women, the Gays have all searched for themselves. and now, combining all their quests, has arrived the quest for Jewish feminist identity.​
I mentioned that on this thread (which discussed a similar topic as this one, so let me repeat some other points made there):
https://libcom.org/forums/general/michael-rectenwald-doing-christopher-hitchens-28022017?page=1

"Criticism can be directed even against the best forms of IdPol. And it's not just pointing at its re-integration into the system, but it sabotaging actual resistance or even feeding into rightwing (ethnic/religious) identity politics."

Mike, like Steven here, then asked me "Can you define what this is though and give examples?"

I said:

"By best forms of IdPol, I mean those that acknowledge the reality of class struggle. That's a low bar (French liberal historians discovered it already). Jenny Bourne's article mentioned Bundism, which retro-actively can be classified as a form of IdPol. Even political Zionism had a large socialist current within it (Israel as a safe space)."

See Lenin's (and young Stalin's) writings against the identity politics of the Bund. A more recent example: the LRBW's black nationalism, criticised e.g. here .

(btw, even Hilary Clinton can speak about structural racism, so acknowledgement of material social, as opposed to mere "ideological", causes for oppression of POC etc. is not really revolutionary yet.)

And then I turned the tables on Mike (R Totale et al.):

"Why do you rant about boilerplate critiques of IdPol (as the one by Link in the present thread), when in fact your problem really is with "workerist" social democratic politics and rightwing/mainstream attacks on the lifes of minorities? Isn't it "idealistic" to regard the rightwing assault as based mainly on their having a critique of IdPol and appealing to the (white) working class? That's just a mirror version of the rightwing's story that the mainstream/elite's IdPol ideology is the tool of a leftwing ploy to destroy the country.

When good faith critique of genuine communists "falls far short of the mark", then, if "which is which" is to matter, in your view they must be complicit in "policy/attacks on the lifes of minorities". So why do you rant about those genuine communists' misguided boilerplate critiques of IdPol, if really your concern with them is that they their are complicit in or enabling policy/attacks on the lifes of minorities? "

"I posit that when anyone (in the mainstream/rightwing) rants about IdPol they don't have in mind the people on the street in Baltimore.

I posit that when anyone rants about IdPol they mean the dominant, non-class vulgar form of IdPol."

"When the Right (or anyone) rants about IdPol, I posit they have in mind primarily the non-class, vulgar form of IdPol, symbolic things like speech, cultural appropriation in the media and campus, not black youth on the streets of Baltimore or Ferguson."

"I differentiated the vulgar IdPol from the class-recognising IdPol, and indeed said that even the best form (the latter) can be criticised (for their IdPol). But I'm not oblivious to the fact that there is a difference between vulgar and class-recognising IdPol."

"Of course Reed does criticise even the "left" anti-racism (class-recognising IdPol groups). Perhaps you find some passages where his argument sounds too much like a lazy slippery-slope fallacy. But pointing out similarities doesn't mean to deny there is difference. Lenin dared to equate some Bundist claims to those of outright Zionism, however, that doesn't mean he believed they were literally no better than Zionists. "

But suppose we jettison all critiques of IP as useless, would that advance us closer to revolution?:

"Suppose you're right and everyone who rants about IdPol does have in mind people like the non-activist ordinary Ferguson protestors (i.e. ordinary people with serious grievances; organisers of sweatshop workers, protestors against police violence, fracking, unsafe drinking water, etc.), who are not positively engaged with, their voices not heard, dismissed/ignored/criticised. If it weren't for those ranters against IdPol, would then the local protestors' voices be better heard, would they be more positively engaged? What does that mean concretely?"

To paraphrase Fleur's sarcasm: if it weren't for those old class-struggle IP-critical dinosaurs (like Link), us enlightened modernist activists would have ended capitalism with its racism, sexism, etc. by now.

unironic meme:

In response to the inevitable retort, "ok suppose you class struggle dinosaurs are right about IP" "what should we do then?" i.e. you suggest doing nothing:

"This whole reasoning sounds much like when you criticise the unions or parliamentary parties and people reply; so you want to do nothing? Are you against organising/politics?

Is it really necessary for Reed (or even Spiked), to say that they are fine with ordinary people protesting police violence? Concretely it would not mean much any way, if Reed et al. did, nor does it mean much that you are saying 'let us not neglect the ordinary protestors'. "

and:

"activism, like anyone knows, can take passive forms from writing pamphlets or holding demonstrations to armed insurrection."

--

btw, a more quirky philosophical note, but for a critique of the concept "identity" see Thomas Wallace's 1827 pamphlet: A review of the doctrine of personal identity, in which are considered and compared the opinions of Locke, Butler, Reid, Brown, and Stewart, upon that subject.
https://archive.org/details/areviewdoctrine00wallgoog
or at google:
https://books.google.com/books?id=i4jc-lm-ZkAC

This type of thing is fine in short bursts, but the site is filled with this. I'm all for academic masturbation but there needs to be a time when they look outside their narrow confines and expand into the real world, that's what the right does. Be relatable, be personable, be charismatic and relevant. As a movement.

There is a spectrum, some are worse than others. Jacobin is this with an academic angle, it does not help that they don't have much charisma and reaching the mainstream has failed miserably. Look at this:



I'm not saying they're not very intelligent or have ideas I could like, but presentation is everything. That some of their You Tube videos have no comments at all is a red flag they're not modernising properly. Compare them with AOC giving speeches: she's efficient, charismatic, clear and relatable.

These ideologies can't afford to look the slightest like they are Russian stooges in 2019, particular in a world where Putin exists and is a major threat to the Western world.
 

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
It kind of makes sense though doesn't it?

A lot of left wing activism in the West is grassroots, pretty hard to infiltrate and control without massive expenditure of manpower and resources. They aren't the USSR anymore, they don't have that ideological persuasiveness to talk to the working class.

Right wing activism though? You just splash around some dark money to astroturf PACs and you're golden. Much easier game for Russia to play.

This is extremely naive and fundamentally incorrect as shown by multiple reports in the media. This kind of thinking is likely one of the key reasons outside political actors like Russia so easily influence American politics.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
Their two targets in 2016 were Trump and Sanders. Trump aside, Russia has a huge interest in sowing political instability in American political institutions. One way to do that is to capitalize on partisan polarization and candidates like Trump and Sanders who represent ideological shifts toward the extreme* relative to where the rest of their party is at.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Their two targets in 2016 were Trump and Sanders. Trump aside, Russia has a huge interest in sowing political instability in American political institutions. One way to do that is to capitalize on partisan polarization and candidates like Trump and Sanders who represent ideological shifts toward the extreme* relative to where the rest of their party is at.

Three, the Green Party.
 

Deleted member 13364

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
Let's not forget they also effectively use moderates who have Russia living in their heads rent free, frequently apportioning blame to Russia whenever something is going wrong rather than facing up to the actual issues at hand.
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Go to any communist or deep soviet site and it's like discovering a secret society that still thinks the Soviet Union is awesome.

Easiest course to do that is not giving off signs that you're a Stalinist. Why bother making enemies when you don't have to? Those people are reacting to the socialist/anarchist anti-mainstream vibe who screen anyone not of the herd out by default. Check out forums like Libcom.org or Revleft. Here's an example of a post there by Now Rodman.

https://libcom.org/forums/theory/poverty-identity-politics-21052018

Another critique of IP dates back to 1987, by Jenny Bourne: 'Homelands of the mind: Jewish feminism and Identity Politics' (Race & Class, July 1987). It opens with the often-cited lines:

Jenny Bourne wrote:
Identity Politics is all the rage. Exploitation is out (it is extrinsically determinist). Oppression is in (it is intrinsically personal). What is to be done is replaced by who am I. Political culture has ceded to cultural politics. The material world has passed into the metaphysical. The Blacks, the Women, the Gays have all searched for themselves. and now, combining all their quests, has arrived the quest for Jewish feminist identity.​
I mentioned that on this thread (which discussed a similar topic as this one, so let me repeat some other points made there):
https://libcom.org/forums/general/michael-rectenwald-doing-christopher-hitchens-28022017?page=1

"Criticism can be directed even against the best forms of IdPol. And it's not just pointing at its re-integration into the system, but it sabotaging actual resistance or even feeding into rightwing (ethnic/religious) identity politics."

Mike, like Steven here, then asked me "Can you define what this is though and give examples?"

I said:

"By best forms of IdPol, I mean those that acknowledge the reality of class struggle. That's a low bar (French liberal historians discovered it already). Jenny Bourne's article mentioned Bundism, which retro-actively can be classified as a form of IdPol. Even political Zionism had a large socialist current within it (Israel as a safe space)."

See Lenin's (and young Stalin's) writings against the identity politics of the Bund. A more recent example: the LRBW's black nationalism, criticised e.g. here .

(btw, even Hilary Clinton can speak about structural racism, so acknowledgement of material social, as opposed to mere "ideological", causes for oppression of POC etc. is not really revolutionary yet.)

And then I turned the tables on Mike (R Totale et al.):

"Why do you rant about boilerplate critiques of IdPol (as the one by Link in the present thread), when in fact your problem really is with "workerist" social democratic politics and rightwing/mainstream attacks on the lifes of minorities? Isn't it "idealistic" to regard the rightwing assault as based mainly on their having a critique of IdPol and appealing to the (white) working class? That's just a mirror version of the rightwing's story that the mainstream/elite's IdPol ideology is the tool of a leftwing ploy to destroy the country.

When good faith critique of genuine communists "falls far short of the mark", then, if "which is which" is to matter, in your view they must be complicit in "policy/attacks on the lifes of minorities". So why do you rant about those genuine communists' misguided boilerplate critiques of IdPol, if really your concern with them is that they their are complicit in or enabling policy/attacks on the lifes of minorities? "

"I posit that when anyone (in the mainstream/rightwing) rants about IdPol they don't have in mind the people on the street in Baltimore.

I posit that when anyone rants about IdPol they mean the dominant, non-class vulgar form of IdPol."

"When the Right (or anyone) rants about IdPol, I posit they have in mind primarily the non-class, vulgar form of IdPol, symbolic things like speech, cultural appropriation in the media and campus, not black youth on the streets of Baltimore or Ferguson."

"I differentiated the vulgar IdPol from the class-recognising IdPol, and indeed said that even the best form (the latter) can be criticised (for their IdPol). But I'm not oblivious to the fact that there is a difference between vulgar and class-recognising IdPol."

"Of course Reed does criticise even the "left" anti-racism (class-recognising IdPol groups). Perhaps you find some passages where his argument sounds too much like a lazy slippery-slope fallacy. But pointing out similarities doesn't mean to deny there is difference. Lenin dared to equate some Bundist claims to those of outright Zionism, however, that doesn't mean he believed they were literally no better than Zionists. "

But suppose we jettison all critiques of IP as useless, would that advance us closer to revolution?:

"Suppose you're right and everyone who rants about IdPol does have in mind people like the non-activist ordinary Ferguson protestors (i.e. ordinary people with serious grievances; organisers of sweatshop workers, protestors against police violence, fracking, unsafe drinking water, etc.), who are not positively engaged with, their voices not heard, dismissed/ignored/criticised. If it weren't for those ranters against IdPol, would then the local protestors' voices be better heard, would they be more positively engaged? What does that mean concretely?"

To paraphrase Fleur's sarcasm: if it weren't for those old class-struggle IP-critical dinosaurs (like Link), us enlightened modernist activists would have ended capitalism with its racism, sexism, etc. by now.

unironic meme:

In response to the inevitable retort, "ok suppose you class struggle dinosaurs are right about IP" "what should we do then?" i.e. you suggest doing nothing:

"This whole reasoning sounds much like when you criticise the unions or parliamentary parties and people reply; so you want to do nothing? Are you against organising/politics?

Is it really necessary for Reed (or even Spiked), to say that they are fine with ordinary people protesting police violence? Concretely it would not mean much any way, if Reed et al. did, nor does it mean much that you are saying 'let us not neglect the ordinary protestors'. "

and:

"activism, like anyone knows, can take passive forms from writing pamphlets or holding demonstrations to armed insurrection."

--

btw, a more quirky philosophical note, but for a critique of the concept "identity" see Thomas Wallace's 1827 pamphlet: A review of the doctrine of personal identity, in which are considered and compared the opinions of Locke, Butler, Reid, Brown, and Stewart, upon that subject.
https://archive.org/details/areviewdoctrine00wallgoog
or at google:
https://books.google.com/books?id=i4jc-lm-ZkAC

This type of thing is fine in short bursts, but the site is filled with this. I'm all for academic masturbation but there needs to be a time when they look outside their narrow confines and expand into the real world, that's what the right does. Be relatable, be personable, be charismatic and relevant. As a movement.

There is a spectrum, some are worse than others. Jacobin is this with an academic angle, it does not help that they don't have much charisma and reaching the mainstream has failed miserably. Look at this:



I'm not saying they're not very intelligent or have ideas I could like, but presentation is everything. That some of their You Tube videos have no comments at all is a red flag they're not modernising properly. Compare them with AOC giving speeches: she's efficient, charismatic, clear and relatable.

These ideologies can't afford to look the slightest like they are Russian stooges in 2019, particular in a world where Putin exists and is a major threat to the Western world.


Your problem here is this is just ignoring what I'm saying. People here are actively interested in throwing the label as a pejorative. No amount of watching your words is going to get you out of that.

I've been called by this community, so including GAF, a communist, fascist, tankie, Feiner, anti-Irish, anti-academic, overly academic and pedantic. These labels aren't being used for analysis, in general people are just interested in scoring their internet points. Acting like this is all coming from a fair place is nonsense, and the pressure should be on people to avoid defaulting to just throwing a label as a strawman.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Yes this is something that has been discussed in the past and could very well be a thing.

Adam Curtis' Documentary 'Hypernormalisation' goes into some amount of detail around how Vladislav Surkov would provide funding and support to opposing groups in Russia as a means of discrediting and destabilising them.

The below excerpt sums it up.



I would be hesitant in taking this 100% at face value, but it is certainly an interesting perspective.