Also there's no reason why a Japanese game can't have a Black-Japanese protagonist. Mixed people exist.
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We Need More Black Protagonists in Gaming
- Thread starter malyse
- Start date
OP
OP
And why does a white default make sense? This is what you said:
The thesis is "we need more black protagonists in gaming". Literally the first word in your comment is "no".
This too.
how would it hurt though? let's say hypothetically there is a game set in Japan and the main character just happened to be black. what harm would there be in having a game like that?
are you saying that by default, the main character has to be white, unless race is part of the story?
Get out of here with that
Why the fuck do black people always have to have a reason for being in a story.
This post is right on the money.
As a hispanic, it's understandable why my culture isn't widely represented in games and that falls on the lack of people within my ethnic background in the games industry. I wouldn't expect nor necessarily even want people who don't understand the culture to represent it.
Bayek was pretty cool and what's his face from Watchdogs 2. Weird that Ubisoft seem to be ahead with this... But yes, definitely needed. I think Bayek was a breath of fresh air because he was also African.
I mean, limiting it to white and black in terms of the thread is fine but when Americans say 'black representation' they usually just mean ''African-Americans.'
It does seem to be getting better though, let's hope it continues.
I mean, limiting it to white and black in terms of the thread is fine but when Americans say 'black representation' they usually just mean ''African-Americans.'
It does seem to be getting better though, let's hope it continues.
Fuck that whole "need a reason".
Mario is a plumber who fell into a well into fantasy land.
He could have come from anywhere and no one really cares.
Most protagonists don't even have a good reason why they're white over something else except because it's the fucking default.
Nathan Drake is thief going on adventure all around the world, his color informs nothing about the game at all.
Let's not act like if they made a new game like Uncharted today and it featured a black protagonist people would care about the skin color more than the fact that about the fact that we're getting a new Naughty Dog game.
Mario is a plumber who fell into a well into fantasy land.
He could have come from anywhere and no one really cares.
Most protagonists don't even have a good reason why they're white over something else except because it's the fucking default.
Nathan Drake is thief going on adventure all around the world, his color informs nothing about the game at all.
Let's not act like if they made a new game like Uncharted today and it featured a black protagonist people would care about the skin color more than the fact that about the fact that we're getting a new Naughty Dog game.
Now, this is where I don't agree with what has been said here. It does matter.
Let me give you an example.
I'm from Portugal and I have a black friend. We both grow up in financially comfortable families, grow up watching the same cartoons and go to the same school.
Technically we wouldn't be that different but there is a BIG chunk of culture that comes from my parents and his parents (or grandparents) that do make a difference in who we are and how we perceive the world. If he's black I can safely assume that either his parents or grandparents came from one of the portuguese colonies in Africa and have been through stuff and learned lessons that my side of the family never did.
Does it matter? I think if you are trying to write believable characters, it really does.
Now, I don't have any problem with "let's make them black!" but I think that has to be done with respect for whatever minority you are trying to represent. And that can be very hard (big chance you will offend someone if you mess up). And I don't think throwing random minorities characters in for the sake of it is respectful.
I would love to know how you approached that change in the character.
PS: I guess this applies more to "realistic" games with big story lines. I really don't care if Mario was black, purple or Asian.
I'm going by my actual real-life two-week trip to Japan, I seriously did not consciously see any across all those different cities. If I missed any, it was definitely not more than a handful.
As for statistics, I just did a quick google search after seeing your reply. From quick scanning of results, it seems like Japan does not track racial color in their census. However by informal studies/estimates, sounds like it's being estimated at 0.02% to 0.05%
(This is excluding US military as I mentioned above, because there's a huge US military presence in Japan. But those are not native japanese citizens.)
Well I thought it would have been obvious, but since you are questioning me I have to make it clearer. I was not thinking about games with fantastical complete fantasy-land magical elements.
Yes, all video games are fictional, but I'm referring to games more like Yakuza (as someone else mentioned) or GTAs, etc.
You are free to your opinion, just like I am to mine. But I will never think it makes sense in those more realistic-type settings games. Sorry, but if the next Yakuza game is all black protaganists and crew, that would be silly as hell. In my opinion of course.
We definitely do need more persons of color, but I can't approve of a random list like this that just cherry picks white men from different years and ignores anyone who isn't a white man. It's misleading. A much better graohic would be to display all the main playable characters from aaa games released in 2017 and have that discussion.
Your response was opposition to more black protagonists with the assumption they wouldn't be "good" without any description hypothetical or otherwise of any games.
As a minority, it's understandable why it's default. People have a natural inclination to portray someone who is like themselves when creating a work of art. White people create White characters, Japanese people create Japanese characters, there's just not enough developers of color creating video games.
What do you mean how would it hurt, I honestly can't tell if you're genuinely asking that or you're being sly about the discussion.
The obvious answer is that it could potentially affect sales.
Again let's use Yakuza as the example, since someone else (not me) brought it up. Especially remember that a huge percentage of Yakuza buyers are japanese people.
So if the next Yakuza is all black protaganists... you seriously cannot imagine that a lot of the japanese fans might think differently about it and affect their potential buying decision?
<edit> Oh also, I would certainly think it's *just as stupid* if they made the next Yakuza all white protaganists. Because I didn't see that many native white japanese citizens on my trip either, excluding tourists and military.
OP
OP
You think that list would be significantly different? The vast majority of games have white male protagonists. Even games like Mass Effect where you can have a custom character advertises with a white male lead. The only real exception is games set in Japan.
I'm just taking in general, not about a specific studio like Rockstar. I know that was the basis of the conversation but wanted to give my take.
Agreed! I think it's always worthwhile for new perspectives and I hope this is coupled with more diversity in game development. Mafia 3 was an extremely average game that I actually enjoyed because of the fresh perspective.
Yakuza series is not a good example because it has a recurring star and is focused on Kiryu and his close friends and yakuza family. The probability of THE protagonist being changed into a black man is zero, but if there were another entry with multiple protagonists a black or half black/half Japanese character as one of them wouldn't be far fetched.
The discussion about "replacing" protagonists helps underline why I think some people have such a harsh reaction to more black protagonists: they think they'd be losing something or having their favorite characters made "unrelatable" when the actual discussion is about increasing the amount of original protagonists who are black.
I was genuinely asking. What I meant with how would it hurt is, opposing the sentiment of a game set in Japan with a black protagonist not being sensible
The next Yakuza game for all we know has one protagonist, but I get that that is besides the point. I don't know how this would affect sales but I you do have a point since Yakuza hasn't done that before, but Yakuza is still considered a niche series so even if there was a white protagonist the case could be the same.
I really want some black party members in JRPG's or VN's (biracial preferred personally since I am myself!)
^Who wouldn't want someone like that in their party (said character for the record is a Strike Witch OC based off a real black jet pilot)?
let's be real here though that thing is an abomination
OP
OP
Unless a characters race is an essential part of the plot I can't see why every playable character can't be customised. Sure, maybe there's a bit more work required by the developer but really, would it be so hard?
That said, there obviously needs to be far more diversity in games from the off and games that specifically feature black culture, which seems extremely absent.
That said, there obviously needs to be far more diversity in games from the off and games that specifically feature black culture, which seems extremely absent.
Is there a way or place we can boost and signal up in coming Poc people developers who are designing games with PoC characters? I know a few folks, myself included, who are working on games with black leads, but it seems so daunting to actually talk about them because there doesn't seem to be a place to do so without getting harassed by some of the less savoury gamer crowd.
If I had a dollar for every time I've seen that cherry-picked "brown-haired white guys" image, I'd have a lot of dollars.
But I suppose I agree there should be more representation for those who care about it. As an Asian (specifically Vietnamese) I get fuck all in representation and it doesn't really bother me none.
But I suppose I agree there should be more representation for those who care about it. As an Asian (specifically Vietnamese) I get fuck all in representation and it doesn't really bother me none.
Yep, but those games need to sell better too.. for example Dishonored: Death of the Outsider didn't sold good, but that's mostly because even the main Dishonored II game sold poorly.. Mafia 3 didn't sold as good as previous titles in the series, but atleast I think that's probably because it's the worst game in the series.. I like to support games where I can play a Slavic character without many stereotypes - like Nico from GTAIV is in my opinion is the prime example how West sees Slavic people or immigrants in general - no matter from which Slavic country a character is, he is either Russian or Ukrainian mafia member, which is problem not with just games, but media representation of Slavic people in West in general - but I don't have a problem to support games who show Slavic culture or people in more natural way, for example I love how Witcher games have heavy Slavic (besides other) feel and influences and present to the West many things from the Slavic culture, of which many weren't never really show before.. the same with STALKER or Metro games.. shame that if you want to see no stereotypical portrayal of Slavic culture and Slavic people, you need to play games (or watch movies) from Slavic countries..
And don't get me started on the Hostel movies, how can people take them movies seriously and think that that's how things work in those parts of Europe..
But anyway, more power to more diversity in videogames of course
And don't get me started on the Hostel movies, how can people take them movies seriously and think that that's how things work in those parts of Europe..
But anyway, more power to more diversity in videogames of course
OP
OP
When a minority group does not have wealth like others, you can't expect them have have a hand in lines of production.
As to this topic, sure we do need more black protagonists but I really can't expect to get too much because of factors outside of just gaming. I am of the view you make a more diverse developer and publisher pool you get more diverse games. I see a industry of people of 2 groups mainly making games, that has a result on how games are being made and shown.
Until some societal changes happen it will stay this way. I would rather focus on fixing the underlying problem rather than just wishing for more games with characters that look like me.
Aim higher and demand more minorities in creative roles. I don't trust white or Asian people to write a good dark skinned character. They usually don't.
Im not even a black person but I felt identified with CJ anyway. That character was awesome. I honestly can identify with every character out there even if its not my same sex or skin colour.
It's not TOO weird. As annoying as Ubisoft can be sometimes, they usually are pretty good about diversity when it comes to creating their leads, at least as far as Assassin's Creed goes (and Watch_Dogs is in a sense an AC "satellite" series).
They did have a period after ACIII when they started "defaulting to white" like much of the industry, which had especially troubling implications in the first Watch Dogs, but it seems they've started correcting that since then.
Sweet. I'll be sure to keep an eye open for it and let my friends now. If push comes to shove I'll showcase their stuff for them.
Thanks for the effort, it was sad to see that one BHM thread get derailed by "what does it matter if this S. African dev is mostly white? White people live in Africa too!" kind of responses.
This is the only real solution. The question for this thread is really where are they all?
This topic has been around for a few years now which is plenty long enough for at least a few games to have come out. I mean, it should be possible to go beyond the "make the protag a cute lesbian and call it a day" that counts as diversity in US games development.
A Sergeant Johnson game set before the events of Halo: Combat Evolved, please.
I've pitched this exact thing a few times over the years. Almost verbatim. Maybe one day when the time is right and the Sweet Williams are aligned.
The way I've always approached it is to look at the protagonist's convictions, moral character, decision making, story arc, etc. and identify with that, first and foremost. Racial makeup, age, ethnic background, gender, etc. is always secondary to me. This is not to disagree with the premise that more black protagonists in gaming would be a good thing, but in the grander context, I question why people draw upon their best empathy and ability to relate when it's concerning things that are superficial (compared to the things that do more to define us as people).
It would be more accurate and representative of the truth. Off the top of my head you have uncharted lost legacy, gravity rush 2, horizon and the dishonored expansion, all as major games last year, none are white men.
Diversity is a problem that needs fixing. But we need accurate data and facts, not carefully selected examples intended to show the conclusion we are trying to prove.
OP
OP
Making games is hard. I mean, it's not cheap, it's not easy, it's not fast, plus even if you do everything 100% right, there's no guarantee that you'll get any attention or that your game will be well received. You might spend years of your life working on something only for something out of your control to totally wreak you. On top of all that, if you embrace the fact that you are making a game about a non white male, you'll get harassment just cause. And if you're also a non white male, you'll get racism or sexism hurled at you if not both. So what do you do? You could stay offline and avoid the abuse which also means you have little chance of hitting mainstream. Or you can hope your mental state can survive the hate chamber the internet so often is.
Usually the picture in the OP is used to say "look at all these characters that look exactly the same, so boring!", which mostly just says you either have face blindness or you think every white person looks alike. I dunno why it keeps getting brought up; if the point is to demonstrate the paucity of black leads actual stats or a more rigorously defined threshold for how the images were picked would work a lot better.
But at the end of the day DigitalOp is on the money. While market forces can help push for more diversity, what would make far more of a difference is more diverse groups into game development, same with every other creative industry. How you do that is another question entirely.
I definitely agree with you that white protagonists would be just as stupid in Yakuza. Because like I just edited/replied above, I hardly saw any white people in Japan that were non-tourists or non-military.
This section is a valid point on your part.
Don't get me started on the black Johnny Storm in the FF movie. As a longtime comix fan from way before Marvel movies were a thing, that was the dumbest fucking thing ever. I'm glad that movie miserably failed. If they wanted to have a black main character to fill a quota, that's perfectly fine and I have no problem with that. They just needed to make it a new character in that story which is not actually Johnny Storm, and most comix fans would have understood. But not Johnny Storm himself.
Indie development takes time and money. I know a lot of people who are working on games and have been for a long time. If you're trying to get on a console there are applications and negotiations, and frankly most publishers are not interested in taking a chance on a new IP as it is. It's even worse when the game celebrates any kind of actual diversity.
I agreed to the OP completly, but I want to add that there is more than just black or white. We do need more diversity in games.
Rockstar's "white males" shouldn't really be in the OP, since they are so distinctive characters
you can't tell me Michael, Trevor, Niko, Tommy Vercetti, Max Payne, John Marston are all the same, they have distinctive and quite unique personalities compared to each other
you can't tell me Michael, Trevor, Niko, Tommy Vercetti, Max Payne, John Marston are all the same, they have distinctive and quite unique personalities compared to each other
