We need to get better at discussing diversity and representation issues (UPDATE: READ OP)

[Kapus]

Here's where I think the argument you have breaks down. Nobody is saying ultra-niche fanservice games need to go away entirely. I mean, I might say that, but I'm a crazy person.

Seriously, though: the truth is that what people are railing against is games that would otherwise be fine except for one or two things. Games like Xenoblade 2 or MGSV or Persona 5 that aren't by definition or genre fanservice games, but still shove that stuff in anyways, spoiling an experience that could otherwise be far more inclusive and not alienate people.

These games don't need to pander, but they do it anyway, and it ruins entire games for entire swathes of the population. It poisons the well.

None of those games would be inherently worse if they didn't go out of their way to pander or objectify women, and their existence as inclusive pieces of art wouldn't somehow mean that people who really want to see anime tits can't see anime tits. The niche stuff would still be around.

But we're now at the point where a major Nintendo-published RPG is using a 10-year-old loli in a thong as a marketing bullet point, and that's insane. There is such a thing as too far.

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Exactly. I don’t see how reducing the amount of unnecessary, out of place and quite frankly embarrassing objectification should make anyone feel uncomfortable or alienated. If I wanted to see t&a, hypothetically, I could go to senran kagura or what have you. But I wouldn’t want that sort of thing egregiously shoved elsewhere for the sake of pandering. We can do without that, can’t we?


Edit: I just want to go back and say I don’t want anyone to feel like they need to step out of the discussion because others disagree with them. If you do, as an example, do feel alienated by us wanting less objectification of our gender in video games and media as a whole, feel free to express it. I’m just curious as to what the reasoning would be.

 

[TheInfinityGauntlet]

I thought the way Lara was treated in the tomb raider reboot showed just how far we still have to go. The horrible death scenes and the anxious "won't somebody save me?" narrative was insufferable. Rise of the tomb raider did a way better job of treating Lara as an equal and a hero so they're learning at least.

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Wasn't she a completely lost rookie in the first one? I mean the violence was for sure over the top but that doesn't mean the situation wasn't completely illogical either, the way better job is character progression

 

[DerpHause]

The problem is that there's currently so little to pick good examples from, and so much to pick bad examples from.
In general this is an unwinnable situation, like most related to this issue:
- You point out the bad examples: "You win more flies with honey than vinegar", "you should focus on the positive examples", and so on.
- You provide a "balanced" view of "good" and "bad" (by omitting 99.9% of the "bad"): "See? there's as many good examples as bad ones, what are you complaining about?".
- You provide only good examples: "well, things are certainly good now, huh?" *pats himself in the back*

There is literally no way to frame the problem that someone won't either find an issue with or outright ignore. At some point you just have to frame it however you can and hope that people will make an effort to empathize and open their minds.

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It's hard to empathize with a goal you can't define other than broad suggestions. This includes when some female characters that are seen as positive by at least some portion of the audience don't qualify. Right now it's something I can't frame well from the op in my attempts to digest it in full, because there are a number of uses of character's that aren't necessarily gendered in their use as motivators. Take for instance using death as a motivator, that needn't be a gendered response, was it better when Rost died than when Talion's wife was killed? Should neither have died because using the dead loved one trope is played out? Or would it have been fine for her to die as a character motivation if the relationship was more fleshed out between Talion and his wife?

Also, there is the obvious point of sexualization of the blades in XC2 that the op points out, but also slides into the objection of the blades being used as literal objects for collection. Is it just the sexualized designs that does that? There are male blades after all who are (to my knowledge) subject to the same manner obtaining and use. So does the discussion center on the several sexualized instances of the blades or their role as objects and weapons to be collected and used?

I think some focus on good examples in a more prominent manner might help address some of the ambiguity in the goals being sought, assuming such a thing can be clarified with the likely differing desired end points, and move the topix away from the often cited "You just want to get rid of 'X'" which seems more prominent than any of the other dismissals so far.

 

[Neiteio]

Sigh. I wish I knew what was going on in IntSys and Nintendo's heads when they okayed that design. I get that Manaketes don't age as fast as humans do, but Tiki was in the very first game and she dressed appropriately.

Nowi is just unforgivable. That character was the beginning of the end for Fire Emblem in my mind.

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Yeah, the whole "I'm 1,000 years old but I just look like a 7-year-old!" doesn't explain why she's dressed like that, lol

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Yeah, the whole "I'm 1,000 years old but I just look like a 7-year-old!" doesn't explain why she's dressed like that, lol

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It also really complicates things when marriage and pregnancy are a gameplay focus point and all of Nowi's interactions with male characters are indeed about her wanting to marry/fuck them.

They absolutely knew what they were doing there - it was not an accident.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Hm, not really sure how to respond to this... There's an enormous field of feminist media studies that is definitely concerned with fictional depictions of women. Discussions about poor depictions of minority populations will always revolve around the whole industry instead of just individual products too. The problem is typically in repeated instances that contribute to stereotypes, which are, basically... repeated instances.

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Yes, which is why I think this is a tough conversation to have because the solution goes back to SOMEONE losing out. It's a similar talking point with privilege in general. By propping someone up, someone else is being pushed down. That's why my proposed solution is all-encompassing rather than full climate change. Don't take away, add. How possible that is to realize, well that's another discussion entirely.

None of those games would be inherently worse if they didn't go out of their way to pander or objectify women, and their existence as inclusive pieces of art wouldn't somehow mean that people who really want to see anime tits can't see anime tits. The niche stuff would still be around.

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So should those that want to see that in high budget mainstream games just be out of luck? Because I would categorize that as inherently worse on some level for those individuals.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm off to sleep but I needed to requote this for visibility:

Relevance is sometimes subjective, but often it is objective within the logic of the argument.

For example, in the classic syllogism:
-All men are mortal.
-Socrates is a man.
-Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Given the first two clauses are accurate, the final conclusion must follow, regardless of any other facts--and hence, any other facts are logically irrelevant. What Socrates eats for lunch is logically irrelevant, since it could not change the conclusion. Who Socrates marries is logically irrelevant.

It takes no authority to identify something as logically irrelevant; it just takes reasoning.

In the present discussion, we know that
1. Some media does not have real world impact (e.g. violent video games)
2. Some media does have real world impact (e.g. food commercials)
3. Sexualized video games are a type of media.

The question then is simply do sexualized video games cause real world impact?
You can't discover that by examining food commercials, so they're irrelevant.
You can't discover that by examining violent video games, so they're irrelevant.
You can discover that by examining sexualized video games. They're very relevant.

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Thanks for bringing a bit of logic (formal logic at that, the best kind there is!) to the madness that is this thread.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Seriously, though: the truth is that what people are railing against is games that would otherwise be fine except for one or two things. Games like Xenoblade 2 or MGSV or Persona 5 that aren't by definition or genre fanservice games, but still shove that stuff in anyways, spoiling an experience that could otherwise be far more inclusive and not alienate people.

These games don't need to pander, but they do it anyway, and it ruins entire games for entire swathes of the population. It poisons the well.

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MGS is a series that has always pandered to some degree. Whether it's Meryl in her panties in the MGS or gravure idols on posters in MGS2 (in one sequence you can actually get Snake to masturbate to it), it's just part of what that series does. Persona is a series that blew up AFTER it started to pander. It was some niche JRPG franchise that had to piggyback off of what success the SMT series had in the west. Now it's far bigger than SMT in both Japan and the west. It's very much in the same way that happened with Fire Emblem. FE was was on its death bed. Nintendo had told Intelligent Systems that if the next game (Awakening) didn't sell better then it would most likely be the final entry. And we all know what happened after that. Fates was even more popular. Even in the west where it sold 300k units in its opening weekend. These are games (FE and Persona) that literally became popular after they began to openly pander toward players. So, i'm not particular sure how you can say they don't need them.

 

[Morrigan]

What about depictions of women in games this year which you find objectionable?

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I know you weren't asking me, but... From the top of my head (and to varying degrees of "objectionable"):
Nier Automata, Ys VIII, Shadow of War, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Trails of Cold Steel 3, Dragon Quest Heroes 2, Tales of Berseria...

I also heard things about Persona 5 and Yakuza 0, though I'm not familiar enough to comment in details.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

So should those that want to see that in high budget mainstream games just be out of luck? Because I would categorize that as inherently worse on some level for those individuals.

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That kind of stuff isn't mainstream, so yeah. I would say those people should stick to niche games, because that kind of content is by definition niche. There could still be high-budget niche games - hell, look at Yakuza.

Again: we are living in a year where Nintendo's final AAA console game of 2017 and the only major JRPG the Switch is even getting, potentially until SMTV comes out, features a ten-year-old loli in a thong. I'm pointing this out again and again because it's the most insane thing I've heard all week.

 

[HammerFace]

I know you weren't asking me, but... From the top of my head (and to varying degrees of "objectionable"):
Nier Automata, Ys VIII, Shadow of War, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Trails of Cold Steel 3, Dragon Quest Heroes 2, Tales of Berseria...

I also heard things about Persona 5 and Yakuza 0, though I'm not familiar enough to comment in details.

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Yakuza has some pretty bad depictions. Especially with the cabaret club stuff. That being said I love the game regardless and the cabaret club stuff. Like 6-8 hours of my game time was spent dressing up the cabaret girls.

You can still enjoy games that have problems even if you criticize them.

 

[DerpHause]

...Nier Automata...

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Mind if I pry a bit here? It's the only one on that list I've played so I'm curious as to the specific elements and degree you find it objectionable.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

I also heard things about Persona 5 and Yakuza 0, though I'm not familiar enough to comment in details.

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I can weigh in on that! Yakuza games always have a kind of weird relationship with women. Most of the female characters who appear in the main storylines are fleshed-out characters with real arcs and personalities and real purpose.

And then you have the hostess club stuff, which is...problematic at best. It's an accurate representation of Japanese culture and the real kinds of clubs that exist in Kabukicho in the real world, but that doesn't make it any less skeevy.

Yakuza 0 has an entire minigame and substory arc around one of the protagonists being forced to manage a hostess club, which manifests as a sort of Diner Dash kind of thing where you're sending hostesses to customers based on their likes and dislikes in order to make as much money as possible before a timer runs out.

It literally commodifies women, and it's real, real weird. It's pretty much 100% optional, though.

 

[RPGam3r]

Relevance is sometimes subjective, but often it is objective within the logic of the argument.

For example, in the classic syllogism:
-All men are mortal.
-Socrates is a man.
-Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

Given the first two clauses are accurate, the final conclusion must follow, regardless of any other facts--and hence, any other facts are logically irrelevant. What Socrates eats for lunch is logically irrelevant, since it could not change the conclusion. Who Socrates marries is logically irrelevant.

It takes no authority to identify something as logically irrelevant; it just takes reasoning.

In the present discussion, we know that
1. Some media does not have real world impact (e.g. violent video games)
2. Some media does have real world impact (e.g. food commercials)
3. Sexualized video games are a type of media.

The question then is simply do sexualized video games cause real world impact?
You can't discover that by examining food commercials, so they're irrelevant.
You can't discover that by examining violent video games, so they're irrelevant.
You can discover that by examining sexualized video games. They're very relevant.

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If some media has real world impact like food, than I'm not willing to say we've proven that violence has zero. Media either impacts us to various degrees or it does not, hence why I don't want to disregard violence as irrelevant.

And again I find myself not liking your example as it is too drastically different. Of course mortality is not going to be impacted by marriage or food consumption, mortality is cut and dry and death is inevitable. How the brain works and digests content across all of humanity is not cut and dry, its not even close.

 

[Dipper145]

I agree that we certainly need to do better at representation in video games, but the OP offers no (or rather, little) discussion or information about how we enact that change that we want to see. I don't have any real solid answers for that either, because it's obviously a difficult challenge. Other than perhaps raising awareness with people about the issue, which this thread certainly helps to do. Although, I think that highlighting the bad representations throughout most of the post, while leaving any positive representations to only a single line or two at the end of each section is a problem. And will likely lead to many people defending their views on those certain characters, which is acknowledged and then ignored. I know it is way easier to find bad representations than good ones due to the inherent problem presented. Would it be better to point to good representations in video games, and hold high those examples?

The mod edit seems super out of place as the OP does not appear to intend for this to be a discussion topic. This is evident in the title, and content of the post (perhaps the title and content was edited by the mod as well, if so my apologies.). It is presented as an article or opinion piece. Statements, regardless of how vapid they may be, about agreeing or disagreeing with the OP's statements are perfectly reasonable and acceptable responses to the topic. That is unless the OP has largely mischaracterized their post through the title and the content, whether intentionally, lack of writing ability, or general misunderstanding of how to start a discussion. Throughout the OP no questions are asked of the reader, only statements are made. What are we supposed to be discussing? Our individual viewpoints on the matter? If we feel represented in video games? Do we agree or not agree with your statements? Larger sociological issues? How to take on a broader perspective ourselves through others individual viewpoints? How to enact better representation? Methods through which we get better at discussing social topics? Lead discussion through asking questions.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Fire Emblem is actually a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The evolution of the franchise had people that found the pandering distasteful losing out. And yet the franchise was ultimately saved thanks to that entry, even if we can't 100% pinpoint the reason as being related to said pandering. So if we assign a numerical value there, we may come to the conclusion "pandering is good" and that the people missing out are (unfortunately on an individual level) insignificant. "Feeling welcome" could be argued as a justified afterthought for monetary reasons, which again brings us to the idea that an entire cultural shift is necessary where people need to be conditioned into seeing inclusivity as more valuable for any given person (which adds up) than objectification.

And this is even before we get into the money-printing giant that is Fire Emblem Heroes.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

And this is even before we get into the money-printing giant that is Fire Emblem Heroes.

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Gacha games are by their very nature designed to exploit the exact kind of people who pandering works on, though. The majority of players don't spend a lot of money on in-game currency, but whales do. That isn't a sign that pandering is inherently good as much as pandering is an easy way to get one very specific subset of the gaming community to throw money in a hole.

 

[Zornack]

I'm not sure if you mind if someone else responds.

From the stuff I played this year a case could made for, Yakuza 0, Persona and Nier.

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I know you weren't asking me, but... From the top of my head (and to varying degrees of "objectionable"):
Nier Automata, Ys VIII, Shadow of War, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Trails of Cold Steel 3, Dragon Quest Heroes 2, Tales of Berseria...

I also heard things about Persona 5 and Yakuza 0, though I'm not familiar enough to comment in details.

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Thanks for the input. It does seem to be almost entirely Japanese developed games, doesn't it? At least on the oversexualized design front. I was going through a mental lists of games I played this year and the only ones that jumped out at me which I would consider objectionable were from Japan.

 

[Antrax]

That's a great OP.

Wasn't she a completely lost rookie in the first one? I mean the violence was for sure over the top but that doesn't mean the situation wasn't completely illogical either, the way better job is character progression

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Yeah, I actually was pretty explicit back then that Lara could be weak in that game narratively as long as a future sequel didn't strip her of her knowledge from that first game.

Thankfully

Spoiler: Rise of the Tomb Raider

the sequel opens with her tomb raiding like a boss before blowing up a bunch of dudes with guns, so I was glad.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

That kind of stuff isn't mainstream.

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It's not? Wouldn't this and the other long-running sexualization thread suggest that it is, or at the very least normalized (which is a big part of mainstream)?

Mainstream doesn't have to mean good.

 

[Twig]

Why is this necessary? Why do you want to put me on one side and you on another? Can we not do this?

The dude had his last comment and put me on ignore. I had my last comment. That's it. I'm not gonna derail this thread any further.

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Hey, you're the one who kept insisting these people existed. I assumed you had proof, and further wanted to know if you were one of these people.

But fair enough, I won't force you to keep digging that hole.

 

[Aigis]

Games like Persona 5 that aren't by definition or genre fanservice games, but still shove that stuff in anyways, spoiling an experience that could otherwise be far more inclusive and not alienate people.

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Nyeh?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Gacha games are by their very nature designed to exploit the exact kind of people who pandering works on, though. The majority of players don't spend a lot of money on in-game currency, but whales do. That isn't a sign that pandering is inherently good as much as pandering is an easy way to get one very specific subset of the gaming community to throw money in a hole.

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FE Heroes actually has a really good whale:low purchase player ratio. I remember reading it would still be making somewhere in the 30k range a day if all the whales disappeared.

Obviously not Pokemon Go levels, but good nonetheless.

 

[Nav]

I create this thread out of frustration. Frustration with the increasingly frequent dismissal of issues that matter to me. Frustration with how discussions around diversity and representation increasingly make me feel like I am banging my head against the wall. Dismissive attitudes seem to be becoming more common, and I believe that this will hurt our community in the long run. I want to try to explain why. Why these issues are important. Why we still have a long way to go. Why this general dismissiveness harms our ability to have these discussions.

I want us to do better. I know we can do better. We need to do better.

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Thank you for addressing this important topic. It was a really excellent post. I have so many thoughts so I apologize if they're a bit scattered.

Do you see the Magic examples as intersecting significantly with the video game community? I had been following that recently and it seems awful. I am surprised Wizards has yet to make female-only pro events or scholarships to encourage more women to enter the game. It's not a perfect solution but many sports divide competitors by sex. Competitive chess started a women's world series for similar reasons a century ago -- not because of any difference in skill between men and women, but to encourage female participation in the game. I love Magic but I only play online, in anonymity, because I have never had a positive experience playing in person.

Sexualization is not just some benign thing - it has real consequences.

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Here are some more recent research articles which address changes in sexualization of women in video games over time (Lynch et al 2016) and evidence of an empirical connection between sexist attitudes and video game exposure in a large sample of adolescents (Bègue et al 2017). The first one is especially relevant. Some interesting findings:

1. Sexualization of playable female characters has diminished since a peak in the 1990's.
2. There's been an increase overall in games featuring playable female characters.
3. BUT -- games still depict female characters more often in secondary roles and sexualize them more than primary characters. (i.e. we can do better)
4. AND -- critical success of games is found to be unrelated to sexualization (i.e. profitability / demand / "sex sells" shouldn't be an excuse for sexualization)

The upcoming Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (like its predecessor X) features more than one sexed up design, and most of those characters double as objects (swords) for the player to collect - pretty much literal objectification.

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Not sure if this is better or worse, but I want to say it might be personification more than objectification? I think those characters are weapons who sometimes have humanlike forms.

Proper representation matters. This is why games like The Last of Us and Horizon Zero Dawn are so damn important to me - games featuring female characters who aren’t just there to motivate the male player character, who aren’t sexualized, who aren’t treated as objects, and who aren’t violently discarded for a cheap emotional punch. We need more games like that from the AAA industry.

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I think not just AAA, but all levels. Isn't AAA just about how much money you spend on something?

The Last of Us II focuses on Ellie and its second trailer was a scene between three female characters.

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The Last of Us is a masterpiece and I want to be lenient on it for that. But I do think it promotes a culture of violence in gaming which goes hand-in-hand with viewing human beings as objects. My view, which could be wrong, is that the normalization of violence in games like the Last of Us contributes to the objectification of all life, desensitizing us and lowering our thresholds for empathy. The Last of Us II "torture porn" trailer was not a good look for the series in my opinion.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Yakuza has some pretty bad depictions. Especially with the cabaret club stuff. That being said I love the game regardless and the cabaret club stuff. Like 6-8 hours of my game time was spent dressing up the cabaret girls.

You can still enjoy games that have problems even if you criticize them.

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Yea agreed, it's also my goty.

To add to the problems, that series pretty much always damsels women.
I thought for once they had a strong female character with the beast style teacher. But then she gets overpowered and you have to save her at the end.
This happens to none of the 5 male style teachers, to my memory.

 

[HammerFace]

Yea agreed, it's also my goty.

To add to the problems, that series pretty much always damsels women.
I thought for once they had a strong female character with the beast style teacher. But then she gets overpowered and you have to save her at the end.
This happens to none of the 5 male style teachers, to my memory.

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Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just her.
Although every interaction with Bacchus was basically protecting him from people trying to beat him up so maybe thats close.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Nyeh?

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One word: Ann. Ann's entire character arc in the first dungeon is about her overcoming sexual harassment (and possible assault), reclaiming her body and affirming that she is not an object for men to ogle or do what they want with.

And yet despite the thematic relevance and value of that arc, for the rest of the game, she is constantly treated like an object by the men in her team and the men around her, and she's constantly put in sexual situations and an outfit that completely flies in the face of who she actually is as a person.

It would've actually been a great step for representation and a really well-written concept if the game didn't piss directly all over it and turn her into "the sexy one" immediately after it was over.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just her.
Although every interaction with Bacchus was basically protecting him from people trying to beat him up so maybe thats close.

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Yea I thought about that, isn't it presented in a manner where he's using them to train you.

Like he was never is knocked down and made powerless as the beast teacher was.

Again I could be remembering this poorly

 

[Antrax]

I agree that we certainly need to do better at representation in video games, but the OP offers no (or rather, little) discussion or information about how we enact that change that we want to see. I don't have any real solid answers for that either, because it's obviously a difficult challenge. Other than perhaps raising awareness with people about the issue, which this thread certainly helps to do. Although, I think that highlighting the bad representations throughout most of the post, while leaving any positive representations to only a single line or two at the end of each section is a problem. And will likely lead to many people defending their views on those certain characters, which is acknowledged and then ignored. I know it is way easier to find bad representations than good ones due to the inherent problem presented. Would it be better to point to good representations in video games, and hold high those examples?

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The OP literally mentions game developers adding female characters because of discussions like these. Nobody wants to make something that gets booed or shit on; if you want less objectification, call it out. It works.

 

[HammerFace]

Yea I thought about that, isn't it presented in a manner where he's using them to train you.

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That's totally true. So yeah the only instance is for the beast lady. Thats a shame she was really cool. And I never played Yakuza 5 but I'm guessing you dont actually get into fights when you play as Haruka right?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

One word: Ann. Ann's entire character arc in the first dungeon is about her overcoming sexual harassment (and possible assault), reclaiming her body and affirming that she is not an object for men to ogle or do what they want with.

And yet despite the thematic relevance and value of that arc, for the rest of the game, she is constantly treated like an object by the men in her team and the men around her, and she's constantly put in sexual situations and an outfit that completely flies in the face of who she actually is as a person.

It would've actually been a great step for representation and a really well-written concept if the game didn't piss directly all over it and turn her into "the sexy one" immediately after it was over.

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The only thing I'd argue goes against her character and how the game frames it is the nude model thing. Everything else is perfectly in line with her character.

Her character arc wasn't about not being sexualized, it was about being in control of that sexualization. She's a model that's all about owning her sexuality, and the whole point of the Kamoshida arc was snatching that control back. The cat burglar outfit ties into her love of sexy phantom thieves in tv shows that she saw as a kid.

 

[SolidSnakex]

That's totally true. So yeah the only instance is for the beast lady. Thats a shame she was really cool. And I never played Yakuza 5 but I'm guessing you dont actually get into fights when you play as Haruka right?

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She's an up-and-coming idol in it and you participate in dance battle rather than actual fighting.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

The only thing I'd argue goes against her character and how the game frames it is the nude model thing. Everything else is perfectly in line with her character.

Her character arc wasn't about not being sexualized, it was about being in control of that sexualization. She's a model that's all about owning her sexuality, and the whole point of the Kamoshida arc was snatching that control back.

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Ann did not strike me as someone who would wear an outfit like the one she gets as a Phantom Thief. I get it, they wanted a Catwoman-style cat burglar character to fit the motif, but Ann just isn't that kind of girl.

And yes, the nude model thing is the most prominent example, but the game does still basically flanderize her entirely into just "the sexy one" after that arc is over. Motoko is the "female lead", and Ann gets sidelined for sexy jokes almost immediately.

 

[Morrigan]

You can still enjoy games that have problems even if you criticize them.

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I'd be playing so few games otherwise, heh.

Mind if I pry a bit here? It's the only one on that list I've played so I'm curious as to the specific elements and degree you find it objectionable.

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2B

 

[kaytee]

The only thing I'd argue goes against her character and how the game frames it is the nude model thing. Everything else is perfectly in line with her character.

Her character arc wasn't about not being sexualized, it was about being in control of that sexualization. She's a model that's all about owning her sexuality, and the whole point of the Kamoshida arc was snatching that control back. The cat burglar outfit ties into her love of sexy phantom thieves in tv shows that she saw as a kid.

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She's not in control of her sexuality when a couple male members of the party try to look up her skirt when she falls asleep. Or her clothes get wet in the rain, and the camera lovingly pans over. The nude model thing was also really egregious since it came directly after she'd been sexually harassed by a teacher. Talk about whiplash.

 

[DragonKeeper]

Y'know, I don't really like clowns. They creep me the fuck out. But I don't have a problem with clown lovers. I don't have a problem with circuses, clown clubs, video games or movies about clowns, clown focused magazines with clown center folds. Those things are clearly marked as products aimed at the clown audience, for clown lovers. If you like yourself some clown action, it's easy to walk into a store and grab your product, and it's easy for me to say hell naw and stay the fuck away from it. But imagine a world...where 80% to 90% or some other way too high a number of media...had clowns in it.

Imagine looking through games at your preferred game retailer and a game figuratively speaks to you – Hey! you like sci-fi?

Yeah I do.

- You like explorin' expansive alien landscapes of eye melting beauty?

You bet!

- You like driving around giantass transforming mechs?

Hell yeah!

- Then this game is pertinent to your interests!

So you get home with your latest purchase and everything seems great then first boss and fucking clown out of no where. Why is this boss a clown?! This game has shit to do with clowns. It's just sorta' there so whatever you send it packing and the game goes back to normal...until you meet the alien species populated entirely by mimes. Why are they mimes? It doesn't make any god damn sense but there they are. Then there's the clown themed costumes and that random clown in a cut scene that ruins the mood and drags you out of the game's immersion cause you can't stop staring at its giant jiggling balloons, and you aren't even into clowns but it's just so fucking distracting!

So fuck this game, play another. So you're blazing a trail of death and destruction through some bald guy shooter, taking out the terroristnazicommies when the elite badguy squad shows up and it's clowns. They come at you juggling their balls and making faces and the camera can't seem to stay out of their back pockets, making sure you get a real good close up of their polka dots and squeaky noses and why the fuck are they clowns? What do they add to this game? Who bought this game for the clowns? There are so many better choices for clown lovers that focus on clowning. Nobody bought this for the off chance of clowns yet here they are.

So fuck that game too but as you continue your search you steadily get this sinking suspicion that you can't escape. Games about clowns aimed at the clown loving audience aren't enough. Clowns are everywhere. Even those games you think are for you still dedicate a chunk of their content to the clown fandom. Doesn't matter if the game isn't really aimed at that audience, that audience might look in and so they must be pandered to. Doesn't matter if the clowns fit the theme, if they're out of place, the clowntaku are the ones that count most so fuck everybody else.





This isn't really about clowns.

 

[PaperSparrow]

The only thing I'd argue goes against her character and how the game frames it is the nude model thing. Everything else is perfectly in line with her character.

Her character arc wasn't about not being sexualized, it was about being in control of that sexualization. She's a model that's all about owning her sexuality, and the whole point of the Kamoshida arc was snatching that control back.

Click to shrink...

Yet, she is embarrassed about her outfit and dislikes how revealing it is because the artist thought it would be "cute". Why have an arc about owning her sexuality only for her to be embarrassed about it? Why have the boys look up her skirt while she's sleeping, knowing what she's been though? Ann's character is all over the place because the creators couldn't decide if she owns her sexuality or if they want her there to pander.

 

[DerpHause]

2B

Click to shrink...

Just the outfit? Personality? Other?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Ann did not strike me as someone who would wear an outfit like the one she gets as a Phantom Thief. I get it, they wanted a Catwoman-style cat burglar character to fit the motif, but Ann just isn't that kind of girl.

Click to shrink...

She pretty much says she's that kind of girl in her confidant though. And even if she isn't personality-wise, she doesn't really need a reason more than liking the design, which she does when she talks about how she idolized characters that wore stuff like that as a kid.

And yes, the nude model thing is the most prominent example, but the game does still basically flanderize her entirely into just "the sexy one" after that arc is over. Motoko is the "female lead", and Ann gets sidelined for sexy jokes almost immediately.

Click to shrink...

That's more bad character management than anything else. It happens with a lot of long-running stuff with a bunch of characters. Some writers just aren't good at managing a relatively big cast.

 

[Aigis]

One word: Ann. Ann's entire character arc in the first dungeon is about her overcoming sexual harassment (and possible assault), reclaiming her body and affirming that she is not an object for men to ogle or do what they want with.

And yet despite the thematic relevance and value of that arc, for the rest of the game, she is constantly treated like an object by the men in her team and the men around her, and she's constantly put in sexual situations and an outfit that completely flies in the face of who she actually is as a person.

It would've actually been a great step for representation and a really well-written concept if the game didn't piss directly all over it and turn her into "the sexy one" immediately after it was over.

Click to shrink...

Okay thats what I thought you meant and I disagree with it completely. Her entire character arc was about not being abused for her sexuality by others, she had no control over it and her entire persona is that of being the dominant force, her whole role reversal is going from submissive to dominant. None of it was a mistake, even her persona shows her stepping on male figures, having sexuality doesnt make it a weak character or inherently something to ogle. Ann's sexuality is in line with the growth of her character, that outfit is one hundred percent her character and dismissing it because it is sexy is dismissing the entire setup. I think Ann is a great example of how sexuality can be tied to a characters identity in a justified way, its not sexual for the sake of being sexual, it dealt with issue and I think should be applauded quite honestly

 

[PlanetSmasher]

That's more bad character management than anything else. It happens with a lot of long-running stuff with a bunch of characters. Some writers just aren't good at managing a relatively big cast.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't excuse the myriad of sexualized and objectifying scenes that happen later on in the game, though. It's bad writing, and it was one of the things (along with the gay panic and the increasingly muddy general world philosophy) that made me give up on P5 halfway through instead of seeing it through to the end.

I think Ann is a great example of how sexuality can be tied to a characters identity in a justified way, its not sexual for the sake of being sexual, it dealt with issue and I think should be applauded quite honestly

Click to shrink...

It dealt with the issue, and was almost perfect at doing so, and then invalidated it by making her into "the sexy one".

 

[Morrigan]

Thanks for the input. It does seem to be almost entirely Japanese developed games, doesn't it? At least on the oversexualized design front. I was going through a mental lists of games I played this year and the only ones that jumped out at me which I would consider objectionable were from Japan.

Click to shrink...

True. A lot of recent mainstream Western games have problems too, though (especially Blizzard games, mobas, etc.), but I typically prefer the gameplay in Japanese games, so I tend to notice it more in those.

Y'know, I don't really like clowns. They creep me the fuck out. But I don't have a problem with clown lovers. I don't have a problem with circuses, clown clubs, video games or movies about clowns, clown focused magazines with clown center folds. Those things are clearly marked as products aimed at the clown audience, for clown lovers. If you like yourself some clown action, it's easy to walk into a store and grab your product, and it's easy for me to say hell naw and stay the fuck away from it. But imagine a world...where 80% to 90% or some other way too high a number of media...had clowns in it.

Imagine looking through games at your preferred game retailer and a game figuratively speaks to you – Hey! you like sci-fi?

Yeah I do.

- You like explorin' expansive alien landscapes of eye melting beauty?

You bet!

- You like driving around giantass transforming mechs?

Hell yeah!

- Then this game is pertinent to your interests!

So you get home with your latest purchase and everything seems great then first boss and fucking clown out of no where. Why is this boss a clown?! This game has shit to do with clowns. It's just sorta' there so whatever you send it packing and the game goes back to normal...until you meet the alien species populated entirely by mimes. Why are they mimes? It doesn't make any god damn sense but there they are. Then there's the clown themed costumes and that random clown in a cut scene that ruins the mood and drags you out of the game's immersion cause you can't stop staring at its giant jiggling balloons, and you aren't even into clowns but it's just so fucking distracting!

So fuck this game, play another. So you're blazing a trail of death and destruction through some bald guy shooter, taking out the terroristnazicommies when the elite badguy squad shows up and it's clowns. They come at you juggling their balls and making faces and the camera can't seem to stay out of their back pockets, making sure you get a real good close up of their polka dots and squeaky noses and why the fuck are they clowns? What do they add to this game? Who bought this game for the clowns? There are so many better choices for clown lovers that focus on clowning. Nobody bought this for the off chance of clowns yet here they are.

So fuck that game too but as you continue your search you steadily get this sinking suspicion that you can't escape. Games about clowns aimed at the clown loving audience aren't enough. Clowns are everywhere. Even those games you think are for you still dedicate a chunk of their content to the clown fandom. Doesn't matter if the game isn't really aimed at that audience, that audience might look in and so they must be pandered to. Doesn't matter if the clowns fit the theme, if they're out of place, the clowntaku are the ones that count most so fuck everybody else.





This isn't really about clowns.

Click to shrink...

LOL

I love this post. <3

Just the outfit? Personality? Other?

Click to shrink...

The outfit + upskirt peeking thing (that even has a trophy). It's impossible to take her seriously as a gothic loli ballerina or whatever the fuck. xD

 

[Kinsei]

Mind if I pry a bit here? It's the only one on that list I've played so I'm curious as to the specific elements and degree you find it objectionable.

Click to shrink...

I hope you don't mind me responding even if I'm not the one you quoted.

My issues with the game has to do with the achievement for looking up 2B's skirt enough times.

 

[Aigis]

It dealt with the issue, and was almost perfect at doing so, and then invalidated it by making her into "the sexy one".

Click to shrink...

you cant then turn around and say her outfit doesnt make sense though, if anything you have a characterization issue, not a sexuality issue

 

[DerpHause]

The outfit + upskirt peeking thing (that even has a trophy). It's impossible to take her seriously as a gothic loli ballerina or whatever the fuck. xD

Click to shrink...

I hope you don't mind me responding even if I'm not the one you quoted.

My issues with the game has to do with the achievement for looking up 2B's skirt enough times.

Click to shrink...

Thank you. I can certainly see on the aspect of the skirt trophy. I do find not being able to take the design seriously interesting though.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

you cant then turn around and say her outfit doesnt make sense though, if anything you have a characterization issue, not a sexuality issue

Click to shrink...

The outfit isn't the only problem. The other examples other people have posted (the rain scene, the boys looking up her skirt, etc) all show that the game positions her almost entirely as a sex object, which shows a really major disconnect between her dungeon arc (which I applaud) and the way she's portrayed in the rest of the game.

 

[Twig]

Y'know, I don't really like clowns. They creep me the fuck out. But I don't have a problem with clown lovers. I don't have a problem with circuses, clown clubs, video games or movies about clowns, clown focused magazines with clown center folds. Those things are clearly marked as products aimed at the clown audience, for clown lovers. If you like yourself some clown action, it's easy to walk into a store and grab your product, and it's easy for me to say hell naw and stay the fuck away from it. But imagine a world...where 80% to 90% or some other way too high a number of media...had clowns in it.

Imagine looking through games at your preferred game retailer and a game figuratively speaks to you – Hey! you like sci-fi?

Yeah I do.

- You like explorin' expansive alien landscapes of eye melting beauty?

You bet!

- You like driving around giantass transforming mechs?

Hell yeah!

- Then this game is pertinent to your interests!

So you get home with your latest purchase and everything seems great then first boss and fucking clown out of no where. Why is this boss a clown?! This game has shit to do with clowns. It's just sorta' there so whatever you send it packing and the game goes back to normal...until you meet the alien species populated entirely by mimes. Why are they mimes? It doesn't make any god damn sense but there they are. Then there's the clown themed costumes and that random clown in a cut scene that ruins the mood and drags you out of the game's immersion cause you can't stop staring at its giant jiggling balloons, and you aren't even into clowns but it's just so fucking distracting!

So fuck this game, play another. So you're blazing a trail of death and destruction through some bald guy shooter, taking out the terroristnazicommies when the elite badguy squad shows up and it's clowns. They come at you juggling their balls and making faces and the camera can't seem to stay out of their back pockets, making sure you get a real good close up of their polka dots and squeaky noses and why the fuck are they clowns? What do they add to this game? Who bought this game for the clowns? There are so many better choices for clown lovers that focus on clowning. Nobody bought this for the off chance of clowns yet here they are.

So fuck that game too but as you continue your search you steadily get this sinking suspicion that you can't escape. Games about clowns aimed at the clown loving audience aren't enough. Clowns are everywhere. Even those games you think are for you still dedicate a chunk of their content to the clown fandom. Doesn't matter if the game isn't really aimed at that audience, that audience might look in and so they must be pandered to. Doesn't matter if the clowns fit the theme, if they're out of place, the clowntaku are the ones that count most so fuck everybody else.





This isn't really about clowns.

Click to shrink...

yo this made me laugh, i like this a lot

 

[cosmicblizzard]

She's not in control of her sexuality when a couple male members of the party try to look up her skirt when she falls asleep. Or her clothes get wet in the rain, and the camera lovingly pans over. The nude model thing was also really egregious since it came directly after she'd been sexually harassed by a teacher. Talk about whiplash.

Click to shrink...

Yet, she is embarrassed about her outfit and dislikes how revealing it is because the artist thought it would be "cute". Why have an arc about owning her sexuality only for her to be embarrassed about it? Why have the boys look up her skirt while she's sleeping, knowing what she's been though? Ann's character is all over the place because the creators couldn't decide if she owns her sexuality or if they want her there to pander.

Click to shrink...

The looking up the skirt thing is just teenage boys being idiots. As for the camera thing, I actually had a post about my views on that and how I see it as an autonomous entity that may act as an extension of the character in question, but I don't remember where I posted it.

As for being embarrassed at first with the outfit, that's going to happen even for the most sexually-charged people the first time, especially when it's in the middle of an arc about harmful sexualization that she's the target of. Though I'll admit I don't remember if she got used to it or not, in which case my whole argument collapses if she didn't. But having contradictory aspects like that is IMO actually better writing than having a more solid characterization. Shows they're not 1 dimensional characters.

 

[Twig]

The looking up the skirt thing is just teenage boys being idiots.

Click to shrink...

Boys will be boys!

It's just locker room talk!

eyuck why would you even say that like it's a legitimate excuse

 

[Aigis]

The outfit isn't the only problem. The other examples other people have posted (the rain scene, the boys looking up her skirt, etc) all show that the game positions her almost entirely as a sex object, which shows a really major disconnect between her dungeon arc (which I applaud) and the way she's portrayed in the rest of the game.

Click to shrink...

Sure, if you find the moments after her arc out of place, I can see why you would. My issue is saying the arc is well done and then the outfit doesnt make sense doesnt jive. There is solid reasoning why she has that outfit which is setup in the arc, it totally makes sense and was dealt with very well imo