There are people calmly criticizing things but you and others only choose to see the toxic one
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We need to talk about how toxic discussing the Epic Games Store is when it comes to accusations and insults (Read OP and Threadmarks Before Posting)
- Thread starter Deleted member 42
- Start date
There are people calmly criticizing things but you and others only choose to see the toxic one
That's your confirmation bias talking.
The second paragraph is particularly egregious, also.
The correct response you should have given is that, "regardless of which side is more in the right about the EGS issues, nobody should be hurling abuse or death threats at anyone else... it's fucking out of order."
What you wrote only enables the hate and allows it to perpetuate.
I don't think many people realize how common comments like that are for developers and people in the industry. It happens all the time on a regular basis, even over less important things like the EGS issue.
I understand why they might get defensive.
"Toxicity" what a vague word, encompassing basically any and all human behavior we identify as negative or nonconstructive. Let's just put it this way, Jason and Rami made comments that were lazy and dismissive of a legitimate argument, probably because they've also seen plenty of stupid arguments being made, is it really that big of a deal?
Anyway, I will never buy a game from the EGS, it just won't happen, there are too many worthwhile games that aren't exclusive for me to dive into, this industry has been around for like 5 decades now, that's a massive catalog.
Discussions around consumer rights have always been a good Trojan Horse for gamers to spew toxicity and harassment, which undermine other decent conversations.
This is why I Stan the Windows Store ;)
Holy shit OP they tried to come for your job? I'd take the death threat before someone fucking with my job I support my family with. I hope those goobers have their comeuppance.
Holy shit OP they tried to come for your job? I'd take the death threat before someone fucking with my job I support my family with. I hope those goobers have their comeuppance.
I mean it's the truth. No one is owed a game. That line of thinking is what leads to abusive responses.
Nope, his response is still not ok. Responding to that particular person with some snark would be more than justified. Making a general comment against 'gamers' and lumping all of them into the same group is toxic.
How is the "Just another launcher" statement not dismissive? That's okay if you live in america and don't care for the functionalities EGS lacks, but turning that into an actual opinion that ignores everything else is pretty much what dismissiviness is.
And did you listen to the concerns people have?
I couldnt access the EGS for several months since I am in China and Epic literally blocked chinese IPs.
People who want to play with their preferred gamepad cant play it.
People on Linux cant really play the exclusive games.
People like achievements and, when cloud saves werent there, want that.
There are a lot of reasons why people would rather play it on Steam or not at all.
Of course its just games, but I mean this is a videogame forum, where people literally make parties for a Super Smash brothers character trailer.
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I really think there is a disconnect between the customers (how big they can even be) and developers. Both have pretty good arguments in my opinion.
You aren't quoting forum posters with "Oh no they have to use a different launcher" you are quoting Jason Schreier. Don't tack on something a forum poster said next to the Jason Schreier tweet that's been the subject of discussion for at least 30 consecutive posts.
At least, don't if you're honest about prying the discussion apart from the toxic "My Side Vs The Wrong Side" overgeneralizing that spawned this thread.
I get why he feels like that but the "snark" just contributes to more toxicity, it's still not justified.
His general comment is obviously about those who are in that same group.
Jason understands not everyone who plays video games is in that group. The issue is that the group is large and loud and literally harassing people on the industry on a daily basis for everything.
The thing is, of course I'm not entitled to the game, that would be silly, but going EGS exclusively prevents me from getting a game legally. That makes me sometimes sad, what really gets me is the vitriol I get thrown at for being upset at all the insults some posters and journalists sling my way and then call me the toxic one. Trump fucking broke reality.
Great post, OP, and it's really awful that you had to see so much shit from other people.
To put my own take in: if you look at the OP's post and go "yeah, exactly, I can't believe people are so mad over the EGS" like the posts I quoted below then you are very much part of the problem even if you're not actively looking to insult people, send death threats, etc. Comments like these don't focus on the toxicity itself but instead on the notion of using a portion of said toxicity to help one side 'win'.
That extends to other toxic behaviour from any side of the debate, especially the toxic behaviour that isn't as harmful as some of the OP's examples. Justifying such behaviour with "yeah but the other side did x things and they're worse!" doesn't make it so that you aren't just continuing the cycle of toxicity that is so prevalent throughout the internet; all it really does is show that you've missed the forest for the trees. Sometimes it's best to just look at yourself and consider whether what you're doing actually helps anyone or whether it will only make things worse.
For example in the Ooblets thread I was dogpiled on and then called mentally ill/crazy because I dared to be a bit sceptical about a very obvious troll tweet from the developers of that game. Were my complaints about that met with a "yeah, you were right and I was being toxic"? No, they were met with "you're just trying for a 'gotcha!" as if I couldn't possibly have been offended about being called mentally ill in a derogatory manner. My feelings mattered nothing to them because I was on the 'other side' and therefore automatically in 'the wrong'.
Oh, and just to clarify because it needs to be done: this post is in no way meant to justify the toxicity of those on the 'EGS-hate' side nor does it have anything to do with the current political situation throughout the US and UK. Also those posts I quoted were merely examples, and I'm not equating them in any way to the more harmful toxic behaviour that is sadly so prevalent throughout the internet.
To put my own take in: if you look at the OP's post and go "yeah, exactly, I can't believe people are so mad over the EGS" like the posts I quoted below then you are very much part of the problem even if you're not actively looking to insult people, send death threats, etc. Comments like these don't focus on the toxicity itself but instead on the notion of using a portion of said toxicity to help one side 'win'.
That extends to other toxic behaviour from any side of the debate, especially the toxic behaviour that isn't as harmful as some of the OP's examples. Justifying such behaviour with "yeah but the other side did x things and they're worse!" doesn't make it so that you aren't just continuing the cycle of toxicity that is so prevalent throughout the internet; all it really does is show that you've missed the forest for the trees. Sometimes it's best to just look at yourself and consider whether what you're doing actually helps anyone or whether it will only make things worse.
For example in the Ooblets thread I was dogpiled on and then called mentally ill/crazy because I dared to be a bit sceptical about a very obvious troll tweet from the developers of that game. Were my complaints about that met with a "yeah, you were right and I was being toxic"? No, they were met with "you're just trying for a 'gotcha!" as if I couldn't possibly have been offended about being called mentally ill in a derogatory manner. My feelings mattered nothing to them because I was on the 'other side' and therefore automatically in 'the wrong'.
Oh, and just to clarify because it needs to be done: this post is in no way meant to justify the toxicity of those on the 'EGS-hate' side nor does it have anything to do with the current political situation throughout the US and UK. Also those posts I quoted were merely examples, and I'm not equating them in any way to the more harmful toxic behaviour that is sadly so prevalent throughout the internet.
I'm happy to see the continued outrage every time a new deal is announced. Sorry, but as long as Tim Sweeney is trying to stick all of his fat fingers into the pie, then you're gonna see people get riled up every deal that is announced.
Whether or not they can succeed is left to be seen but given how Microsoft has tried and failed in the past to wrangle PC gamers I'm going to bet no, but it's clear that Tim/Epic just want to gain dominance of the PC marketplace so they can make it worse for PC gamers.
Whether or not they can succeed is left to be seen but given how Microsoft has tried and failed in the past to wrangle PC gamers I'm going to bet no, but it's clear that Tim/Epic just want to gain dominance of the PC marketplace so they can make it worse for PC gamers.
So we should all just shut up and buy your game because of reasons? or we should support a store we have issues with because it exists? The insults are not okay but boycotting your game is, boycotting egs is.
I had the same thing happen to me on the Mixer thread yesterday. People can be very defensive regarding their hobbies.
I completely agree with this sentiment. Just think he's shot himself in the foot with this his twitter activity today. But it will help him nuzzle into the bosom of devs no doubt so probably makes sense.
My opinion brother? I don't know if thinking people getting so mad about a dumb store that you're threatening people is such a opinionated take but I don't know tell your brother.
Agree 100 percent with your post Bronson. We should all want the best for our community, and this behavior reflects poorly on all of us. No exceptions.
Resetera must always exemplify the best of our fandom. It was created for this purpose, birthed from necessity. It is a place for all weary, tired sojourner.A family. It has been that for me.
But we have to stay vigilant. And our household affairs must always be in order.
Resetera must always exemplify the best of our fandom. It was created for this purpose, birthed from necessity. It is a place for all weary, tired sojourner.A family. It has been that for me.
But we have to stay vigilant. And our household affairs must always be in order.
I personally think we need more OT's for topics where the rules can be laid down from the start......and less people creating threads every time some fuckwit posts some bullshit on Twitter.....but I'm just a grumpy old git who dislikes social media,lol.
I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make. I really don't. The phrase you are referring to can be found multiple times in every single EGS thread.
I don't think it's that he isn't willing to engage in a conversation, I think it's that he knows what he thinks, and he sees how the conversations tend to go on places like Era and Reddit. I don't think anyone, no matter where their opinion lays, is going to argue the idea that having a civil discussion on Era about EGS is incredibly difficult, often to the point that it's not worth the effort.
Jason isn't an idiot, he spends at least a decent amount of time on Era. He's clearly seen the differing viewpoints and considered them, I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt at this point that he's not one to just talk out of his ass on a subject. But he knows what he thinks, and he chooses that engaging on here isn't worth the time. That's fair, just like it's fair of everyone here to think he's consistently not "getting it". There's a lot of people in my life I think have bad viewpoints, but I'm absolutely not going to spend my time justifying that opinion by continuing to engage with them. I don't owe it to them to do that, that's crazy.
...I think that's a point he's trying to make too lol
Oh yeah.. this totally doesnt happen in literally every community.. I suggest you check out the rationality and level-headedness of the average political youtube channel.
I've been genuinely disgusted every time the Epic Game Store comes up. We're not there yet but its tracking in line with gamergate for me.
Of course it's understandable that people are upset but again all you have to do is wait. No one is owed something just because the devs want advertised it on steam. The Kickstarter stuff is worse but if the new policy is offering refunds than at least people are being made whole.
The broader problem is that this place is a shadow of what Neogaf was before the mass exodus.
That isn't directed at anyone in particular but the level of discourse on Era seems far less civil and substantial than Neogaf. This place is still filled with smart, interesting people but you often have to navigate a plethora of typical online nonsense to engage them and I'm consistently amazed at how quickly a dissenting opinion - even when framed amicably - causes somebody in here to pivot to outright hostility, snark, etc.
The level of discussion and the subsequent civility on Era is certainly better than places like Gamefaqs but those margins seem to be ever-shrinking.
That isn't directed at anyone in particular but the level of discourse on Era seems far less civil and substantial than Neogaf. This place is still filled with smart, interesting people but you often have to navigate a plethora of typical online nonsense to engage them and I'm consistently amazed at how quickly a dissenting opinion - even when framed amicably - causes somebody in here to pivot to outright hostility, snark, etc.
The level of discussion and the subsequent civility on Era is certainly better than places like Gamefaqs but those margins seem to be ever-shrinking.
You are tacking "fucking gamers" onto the Schreier quote.
Don't do that.
It's a viscous cycle, toxic gamers inspire condescending comments from exasperated journalists like schreier, which inspires more toxicity from gamers who feel put on the defensive.
Yep. If console war bullshit is bannable, any platform wars, (at least on the gaming side because of toxic gamers), should be as well. We need to draw a line somewhere as a community (on this site), and just agree that we don't want that kind of toxicity here. You should be allowed to have opinions about store fronts, but as soon as what you are saying is attacking another person, or even attacking another platform, we shouldn't really have to continue accepting you as a member of this community. We can be better than this. There are still plenty of other sites you can go post on if you want to be a toxic douchebag. I hope ERA is working behind the scenes to come up with some kind of policy regarding this.
Really shitty that you feel threatened enough to have to call the police. That kind of people should never have a place in the discussion. Otherwise, I disagree in some parts of your OP (such as when people were equating him with Trump was due to his Trumpian speech, not saying he was an alt-right semidictatorial asshole).
Yet it's fine for customers to treat developers like shit? Both sides here are human beings.
As someone who has worked in retail for years, I personally think that sometimes customers need a taste of their own medicine.
But they aren't customers. It's bad PR and will probably hurt them in the future but they aren't taking something away from those folks.
I got insulted by multiple users for saying I lost a little bit of respect for Jason when he kept representing me in his articles as a "toxic gamer". To me he shows a clear lack of understanding of the issue but is insistent that anyone calling him out is akin to a GamerGater. Shit sucks.
No it's not good for either. When the developer is so tone deaf that shitting on people supporting his game is the way to go than I think that's pretty bad.
Exactly
My main problem with this is: Jason is a journalist. It's his job to talk to both sides and try to be objective about it. If he just want to be snarky and throw everything people have against EGS as "entitlement", he is not doing his job.
He has the right to have an opinion but completely avoiding the subject because some people are assholes is beyond me.
I think the part that makes me largely unsympathetic to (most of) the concerns about EGS is that it boils down to having to wait for a thing.
In most (if not all) of these cases, we aren't talking about never being able to play a thing without downloading EGS. We're talking about having to wait. And not even the kind of wait where it's like "man, should I hold off and hope this comes to Switch someday?" Most of these announcements specify the timed nature of the exclusivity.
So the weeping and gnashing of teeth, the harassing, the vitriol... it's all because people have to wait. That's it. Does it suck? Yeah. Worth griping about? Sure, probably. We gripe about a lot of little annoyances on gaming forums, it's what we do. I'm pissed my only options to play Persona 4G in 2019 involve dead hardware and Atlas doesn't seem like they're going to do anything about that anytime soon. But I'm not harping on this every single day in every single tangentially-related thread with increasingly hyperbolic and negative language.
It's 2019, there's no way you're out of things to play while you wait for the game to be available via your specifically-preferred method. Learn to wait.
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tl;dr: Atlus, where the fuck are my Persona Switch ports?!
In most (if not all) of these cases, we aren't talking about never being able to play a thing without downloading EGS. We're talking about having to wait. And not even the kind of wait where it's like "man, should I hold off and hope this comes to Switch someday?" Most of these announcements specify the timed nature of the exclusivity.
So the weeping and gnashing of teeth, the harassing, the vitriol... it's all because people have to wait. That's it. Does it suck? Yeah. Worth griping about? Sure, probably. We gripe about a lot of little annoyances on gaming forums, it's what we do. I'm pissed my only options to play Persona 4G in 2019 involve dead hardware and Atlas doesn't seem like they're going to do anything about that anytime soon. But I'm not harping on this every single day in every single tangentially-related thread with increasingly hyperbolic and negative language.
It's 2019, there's no way you're out of things to play while you wait for the game to be available via your specifically-preferred method. Learn to wait.
.
.
.
tl;dr: Atlus, where the fuck are my Persona Switch ports?!
Of course not, but I think the "Its just games" defense is not a good defense considering we are discussing it on a gaming forum.
Of course I can wait 1 year. My backlog is big enough. I still think I should share my opinion on the topic and how I think it might not be good for the industry, while being good for an individual developer.
What? I would argue on this forum it doesnt have anything to do with gamergate. GG is about "SJW", "Feminazis" etc., not about whether competition, moneyhatting, a bigger cut etc. is good/harmful.
You clearly read neither the OP or the thread you've posted in
Equaling a division like this EGS issue as GamerGate means you have never spent the needed time to examine the arguments.
Not everything is a "gate".
Not everything is a "gate".
In what sense? Gamergate was an harassment campaign against women from the far right disguised as "concerns" with the games media. The comparison shouldn't be made lightly unless you're suggesting EGS concerns are a facade for something else?