We need to talk about how toxic discussing the Epic Games Store is when it comes to accusations and insults (Read OP and Threadmarks Before Posting)

Oct 25, 2017
2,268
I have never been more embarrassed about the gaming community than all this EGS furor, and that is saying something.

It is a game launcher you can download and play on your PC without any cost. I am sorry if you invested too much in Steam Trading Cards or whatever and feel loyalty to one corporation, but like, quiet down a little already and live with your mistakes.
This post is a prime example. The just another launcher argument is supposed to be against the rules, yet here we are again
 

oni-link

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,724
UK
The fact is mods gotta do a better job in EGS threads.
The same arguments that have been completely debunked keep popping up.
Maybe the [SEE STAFF POST] needs to have a list of the most common arguments and why they're not as simple as that, then anyone who comments clearly not having read it can take a short ban

Even in this thread you still have people saying "come on guys it's just a launcher"
 

BrutalInsane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,725
I have never been more embarrassed about the gaming community than all this EGS furor, and that is saying something.

It is a game launcher you can download and play on your PC without any cost. I am sorry if you invested too much in Steam Trading Cards or whatever and feel loyalty to one corporation, but like, quiet down a little already and live with your mistakes.
Cool, another one that the point of why people don’t like the EGS has flown totally over their head.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,445
Halifax, NS
There's a difference between cracking a joke about an entitled gamer culture throwing a tantrum (which is absolutely happening) and people sending death threats to developers because they can't buy a $20 game on a particular app.
So when someone brings up legitimate criticisms of the EGS to him, and he continues to file that under "entitled gamer culture", is that not contributing to the toxic atmosphere?

When someone makes a genuine attempt to discuss it with you and you continue to label it all as entitled gamers, you literally are not doing a single thing to make the overall conversation any less toxic. Every article that gets written about Ooblets that glosses over just how dismissive the devs are to people with legitimate gripes is one that wants paint everyone with the "Gamers Rise Up!" brush.

Pointless nonsense. If your opinion is that he needs to note his tweet with, "Don't worry, I don't mean ALL gamers!," then you're just being disingenuous.

You know he isn't saying all gamers are what he is describing. You know that.
I mean based on his general opinions about the EGS and Valve, no, we actually don't know that. He holds the position that the majority of anti-EGS sentiment is coming from capital G Gamers, responds in kind, and then decries why the discourse is so volatile.

Continuing to misattribute Steam as a monopoly tells me all I need to know in how Jason views all this.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
990
Leeds, UK
User Banned (2 days): Trolling over a series of posts; antagonizing other users
And me, who recently have prefered GOG, that doesn't have any Trading Cards, but now gets that option taken away from me, should I quiet down as well?
I mean, yeah? Sorry all your game application icons may get split across a couple computer programs and whatever mental damage that inflicts, but you young whippersnappers probably weren't around to cycle 4 disks installing through a system and then having to solve a physical cryptogram to even play a game.

Its all felt like when a toddler turns around and makes a pouty face over a monitor not being a touch screen. Get past it, move on.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,248
My favorite phrase that gets posted a lot on here is “ can *uck right off!! “

It’s so silly and childish but it makes me giggle every time.

Era seems to have a thing about *ucking things when they are angry. 😳
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,164
It's rapidly turning into another fighting thread which I was hopefully avoiding

The base stuff should be simple:

People who don't like EGS have merit in doing so
Stop trying to put words into people's mouths
Stop going for the jugular immediately
In the far off future when someday BronsonLee dies, you can at least have "He tried" inscribed on your headstone. A fucking shame this thread turned into another toxic waste with vitriol from both sides again.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,787
Are these posts on reset? Are they more than a handful or is this taking an issue that happens in certain specific situations on reset and blowing it up to make it seem bigger than it is on the forum?

Because if it's a huge issue in reset, that's on the mod team. But I don't think it is.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,163
There's a difference between cracking a joke about an entitled gamer culture throwing a tantrum (which is absolutely happening) and people sending death threats to developers because they can't buy a $20 game on a particular app.
And what about developers that start attacking customers first?

Because of a few bad eggs we throw everyone under the bus that doesn't agree?

I mean they have been as trolling and shitty as some as posters on the other side. Why invite that in the first place?
 

bill crystals

Member
Oct 25, 2017
398
It's annoying as fuck how there's no nuance to the conversation. If you have literally ANY criticism big or small about EGS you're "toxic" and if you support devs 100% you somehow have to be condescending about EGS critics and minimize all criticism.

Like you can want devs to be secure and well paid but also have criticisms about EGS and their practices that are valid. The Ooblets devs simply assumed everyone with EGS issues was a toxic asshole, which is why everyone is jumping on their asses for it. Be fucking better about this shit, more nuance.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,969
It's rapidly turning into another fighting thread which I was hopefully avoiding

The base stuff should be simple:

People who don't like EGS have merit in doing so
Stop trying to put words into people's mouths
Stop going for the jugular immediately
It isn’t helped by the low effort talking points by people who act like they are above it all. Every time it happens, the fire gets stoked again.
 

Gentlemen

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,835
I mean he’s making points people drive by with in Epic threads, if he’s well researched he sure isn’t showing it
What's happening is this thread is now about Jason Schreier when it isn't really supposed to be about Jason Schreier. It's asking literally everyone on Era to do some introspection about how we discuss anything on this forum, and people still want to dunk on hand-picked Schreier tweets because it's easier and feels "virtuous" to call someone else wrong.

Meanwhile almost nobody personally pledges to do better. And that's very disappointing.
 

NarohDethan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,181
I'm not sure this is true, at least w/ the business strategy they are going with. Many others in this forum have described the EGS product as a Minimum Viable Product, and I tend to agree, it looks to me like the launch of EGS was done strictly to get the ball rolling as quick as possible in order to take a share of the market away from Steam, in preparation for the incoming streaming wave. To that end, imo their goal was never to replace Steam or form a true counterpart (I really don't think anyone can challenge steam atm), but grab a decent portion of PC users on top of their fortnite userbase. Then, I dunno, introduce a new product or sell their user's info or whatever. But yeah, I agree that the money isn't going to towards making Epic more like Steam and I don't think that making EGS feature-rich is necessarily a priority for them, I think the haste of their release indicates that
Oh, they pretty much want to get rid of Steam. Don't even doubt it. Hence the exclusivity deals, the 30% cut baiting and other stuff.

But in any case, the well has been poisoned. Just look at this thread, it was supposed to be about someone dealing with death threats due to dumb Internet discussions, now it is hot take central.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,458
Are other gaming groups having similar conversations on the topic? Or is Era particularly heated?
 

Solid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,063
User banned (1 week): Antagonizing another member and misrepresenting their posts, history of similar behavior.
I’m gonna think on this and save my input for later, because my immediate reaction is that it’s hard for me to see this thread as anything but a place for gaslighting EGS skeptics, after the way you tried to make some of these points the other night. In the cloud save thread, where you openly blamed EGS skeptics for not showing up in droves to praise Epic for deploying a core feature many months later than they had promised they would, and framed that hesitation as evidence of our toxicity, of our need to hate. Those posts brought me the closest I’ve come to just walking away from this community for good, and I’m still here sitting on that fence.
 
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Komo

Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,836
Are these posts on reset? Are they more than a handful or is this taking an issue that happens in certain specific situations on reset and blowing it up to make it seem bigger than it is on the forum?

Because if it's a huge issue in reset, that's on the mod team. But I don't think it is.
It's the latter. EGS threads always get blown out. Just look at any thread this week about it specifically the ooblets one and goto page 4 and see how bad it gets on the last page. It's usually blown into philosophical discussions or just trashing the dev at that point.
 
Oct 29, 2017
663
I mean, yeah? Sorry all your game application icons may get split across a couple computer programs and whatever mental damage that inflicts, but you young whippersnappers probably weren't around to cycle 4 disks installing through a system and then having to solve a physical cryptogram to even play a game.

Its all felt like when a toddler turns around and makes a pouty face over a monitor not being a touch screen. Get past it, move on.
Please read the OP before posting. You’ve completely misunderstood the point of this thread
 

Onebadlion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,426
It's rapidly turning into another fighting thread which I was hopefully avoiding

The base stuff should be simple:

People who don't like EGS have merit in doing so
Stop trying to put words into people's mouths
Stop going for the jugular immediately
This advice should be applied to every thread on this forum. This happens all of the time here.
 

nintendoman58

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
I feel like this quote from this one Zero Punctuation video sums up the EGS discussion (and pretty much any debate here).

 

Fid

Member
Jun 5, 2018
253
Detroit
"Jason isn't engaging, he's not hearing the points we're making". And I honestly think his response would be "No no trust me, I've heard you every time, and I know the exact points your making, I just do not and will not agree because I prioritize other ideas in this issue".
This is also contantly thrown at posters in these threads who aren't on the EGS hate train. Me not agreeing with you doesn't mean I didn't hear you. It means I did hear, and I still disagree.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,016
Are other gaming groups having similar conversations on the topic? Or is Era particularly heated?
it's even more vitriolic outside of resetera afai can see, but only within certain groups. Piracy groups in particular love shitting on EGS, I'd wager to majority of users are unaware or don't care

I hate how the legitimate complaints about the Epic store has devolved into tribalism nonsense.
In a similar vein, I was so fucking sad when I saw "social justice" get coopted as a slur by right wingers
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,636
Most EGS thread are running in circles after like 2 pages. And talking about the same thing over and over again can bring frustration and/or aggressivity. Something should be done so that fallacious arguments on both sides are being taken care of, or maybe restrict the discussion on the particular game.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,768
So when someone brings up legitimate criticisms of the EGS to him, and he continues to file that under "entitled gamer culture", is that not contributing to the toxic atmosphere?

When someone makes a genuine attempt to discuss it with you and you continue to label it all as entitled gamers, you literally are not doing a single thing to make the overall conversation any less toxic. Every article that gets written about Ooblets that glosses over just how dismissive the devs are to people with legitimate gripes is one that wants paint everyone with the "Gamers Rise Up!" brush.
People value some things more highly than other people do. Expecting Schreier (or anyone else for that matter) to sympathize with you every step of the way on a situation that is largely preferential is not going to end well.

Yes, that Ooblets PR guy was being a dick. That still doesn't excuse people calling him human trash or sending death threats to his company or sending death threats to Era mods. For fuck's sake, you can disagree with people without going for the killing blow, you know? The immediacy with which the gaming community escalates slights into massive firestorms is legitimately worrisome.
 

Cecil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,276
I mean, yeah? Sorry all your game application icons may get split across a couple computer programs and whatever mental damage that inflicts, but you young whippersnappers probably weren't around to cycle 4 disks installing through a system and then having to solve a physical cryptogram to even play a game.

Its all felt like when a toddler turns around and makes a pouty face over a monitor not being a touch screen. Get past it, move on.
I juggled 11 discs for Monkey Monkey Island 2 on my Amiga 500, and yeah, I did those physical copy protections for the Monkey Island games and Railroad Tycoon as well.

Is there any other cheap generalization you want to throw on me as well? Should we take the parts where you assume that I don't have a job and don't pay bills?
Or the one where I don't know how it is to be a software developers? (which I am since 10+ years back).

Hint: You're not doing much to battle toxicity with your posts.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,787
I hope you don't actually feel this way, I think I've done my best to specifically try to curttail that so far
It would help if we named and shamed some of the examples you're claiming in the OP, especially if they are of a meaningful amount and not just a few outliers.

What is the mod team doing about it?
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,163
LMAO in stitches

People are afraid of hurting their precious Steam platform (coming from someone who has 350+ games on Steam).
Good example of empathy and understanding.

If someone has to read the latest version of a 9-page PDF of subjective arguments presented as fact before they're allowed to enter a certain conversation, maybe the conversation isn't worth having anymore? Or at least not in multiple threads.
If people want to be informed about something they don't know much about it would seem logical to at least try the minimum of effort before going. What's wrong with all this??

The conversation is as valid as if it keeps being relevant or news or an issue (even if you don't agree it is an issue)

I would never tell someone how they feel does not matter just because I'm over seeing it come up.

We don't need to be snarky, lacking empathy and shutting down people that are being reasonable surely?
 

BrutalInsane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,725
I juggled 11 discs for Monkey Monkey Island 2 on my Amiga 500, and yeah, I did those physical copy protections for the Monkey Island games and Railroad Tycoon as well.
Heh my favorite was the codewheel disc for the old SSI D&D Games. At least I could buy that game at my store of choice back in the day!
 

aggrocrog

Member
Oct 29, 2017
699
Thank you for this thread. The EGS is pretty sub-par, but some of the comments are ridiculous. Also, if I never read a "I legit don't get why Steam players are angry" post again, it will be too soon. There's probably hundreds of articles, threads, and posts at this point that lay out the issues ppl have.

More importantly, communities are only as good as the participants want to make it. I post on Resetera, bc elsewhere gaming communities are a disaster. You have to work to keep any community good though, and the hyperbolic/disdainful mudslinging isn't the way.
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,961
I've grown to stop caring about the whole debacle. Era and other places on the internet have made me not care anymore. I'd rather just buy from wherever I feel comfortable from and ignore all the toxicity that comes from people dealing short outrage posts on threads.

The fact people stoop to comparing it to stuff like Gamergate is a far ass reach, and spits in the face of all we learned from it.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
938
Australia
I have never been more embarrassed about the gaming community than all this EGS furor, and that is saying something.

It is a game launcher you can download and play on your PC without any cost. I am sorry if you invested too much in Steam Trading Cards or whatever and feel loyalty to one corporation, but like, quiet down a little already and live with your mistakes.
You're literally doing what the OP is arguing against. You're antagonising and stoking the flames while regurgitating arguments that have been addressed countless times in numerous threads, all while dismissing the opinions of people who have legitimate grievances with Epic and the EGS by generalising with no basis and being condescending. It is a prime example of what the OP was talking about. You don't have to care about EGS but it's not hard to understand the basic reasons why some people are up in arms over this and be empathetic and not snidely take shots at them. You don't even NEED to be empathetic, you can just not make posts that seem solely written to antagonise.
 

Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,376
China
I mean, yeah? Sorry all your game application icons may get split across a couple computer programs and whatever mental damage that inflicts, but you young whippersnappers probably weren't around to cycle 4 disks installing through a system and then having to solve a physical cryptogram to even play a game.

Its all felt like when a toddler turns around and makes a pouty face over a monitor not being a touch screen. Get past it, move on.
Seems that exactly the toxic atmosphere the OP talks about.
 

AndrewDean84

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,577
Fontana, California
I speak for myself, but I never got the hate. I can understand no liking how something turned out but at the end of the day it's a store selling recrational goods. Nothing on there is needed, and damn sure nothing on there is worth raising your blood pressure over and going insane
That’s always been my take as well. I don’t care where I launch my game from. I just want to play said game.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,016
User Banned (1 Day): Trolling, platform warring.
Well, I mean more like platform vs platform stuff. Like somehow the vitriol seems worse than anything consoles despite there being almost no barrier to having steam and egs.
bruh you're talking about a group where the phrase "pc master race" not only stuck but also began to be used unironically, like there are actually ppl who believe they are superior for going PC over a different option
 

datschge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
377
May I ask for a separate EGS Forum here on ERA where all emotional/divisive EGS threads can be moved to/sandboxed off? As is EGS is a bunch of unresolved divisive issues that folks will never agree on, and every topic touching EGS eventually devolves into the same discussions. And people can't easily ignore them since there are too many of them in Gaming Forum.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,934
Athens, Greece
LMAO in stitches

People are afraid of hurting their precious Steam platform (coming from someone who has 350+ games on Steam).
Yeah, no. And this is another example of posting crap with out examining why people are against EGS.
You need to read posts and think, owning games on Epic's rival means nothing.
Also, not all of us are steam or any other market place defenders.
 

Chairmanchuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,376
China
bruh you're talking about a group where the phrase "pc master race" not only stuck but also began to be used unironically, like there are actually ppl who believe they are superior for going PC over a different option
You literally had the same thing on GAF in 2006 with the PS3 and talking people down who cant afford the "599$" console.
On German forums people called themselves "Edel Gamer" (noble gamers) for being PS3 gamers,.

Not really a problem of the choice of a plattform.

On Gaf you also had the typical "Sony is for real man, nintendo products for children" talk.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,016
Are you talking about ERA now?
nah just a contingent of PC users on the internet, who imo are more likely to be loud about something like EGS than most others

You literally had the same thing on GAF in 2006 with the PS3 and talking people down who cant afford the "599$" console.
On German forums people called themselves "Edel Gamer" (noble gamers) for being PS3 gamers,.

Not really a problem of where you are gaming.
yeah you're right, I just have more experience on the PC side since that's where i usually game. I don't know why it was so easy for me to avoid console war discourse, but I end up embedding myself in the EGS stuff lol
in general ppl are wild about their purchases + what they think it means for their identity for sure
 

Spoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,642
Growing pains. People are mad for two reasons, I think: the first being the obvious "The store sucks." It does. I use it every day to play games I bought on EGS (well, not every day, but plenty) and for Fortnite when I get around to it. Finding games is hard since it's a big-ass scroll wheel and page with no delineation of what's out and what's not, new, old, etc. I mean, I could go on about how it sucks, not least of which because I am a customer of Epic. I've bought into their platform, and my use informs the "it sucks" opinion. But, just like people don't have to smoke cigarettes themselves to learn that smoking is bad, so too do people not have to be an EGS customer like myself to know this.

The second reason is a bit stranger: I think most people know that what Epic is doing works, and it's strong-arming them. It's working more-or-less just like Epic said it would; they toss around their giant E-dick pinata stuffed with Fortnite monies, little indy children smack it a couple times, and out the front blows enough cash to get people to sign on any dotted line in front of them. Eventually they'll hit that one game you were *really* invested in, emotionally, and you'll probably (though not always, you principled few) bend and break. It's scary to realize that EGS isn't trying to "break" in anymore, they've already more-or-less done it, and all it took was shitting on consumers faces and preying on the fear of developers to get there. 'murica!

Okay, so why am I using it if I think it's shit and feel all sorta ways about it? One, I'm not, like, a super principled person. Hell, I broke the second I saw a Supergiant game, duders. That was, like, day 1, or something. The other reason is their free-game stuff; I have this library composed, now, primarily of free games. And not, like, $2 games. Say what you will, but on a consumer front, the free games thing has been kinda awesome, even if it's just another tactic as far as Epic's concerned. Also, the knowledge that exclusives are going this way means that I get to play them without waiting a year so they can sit in my other game library. I have a finite life-span, so I'm not willing to wait a year to tell Epic to fuck themselves.

BUT. Fuck telling other people what to do with their money and their time. If they don't want to give Epic a cent, I'm not going to try to make them feel differently about what Epic is doing. I mean, you know, they're mostly right about it. It is information collection, it is -- right now -- mostly anti-consumer, it is making games unavailable to many, it is run by near as I can tell a manchild. Steam is a way better store. We need to be able to acknowledge why people are making decisions for themselves as consumers, and not like totally lose our shit about that. So, yeah, I agree with the broader criticism of, we're losing a bit of our soul in this discussion. But I also know for a fact that the passion people have about how badly the Epic store sucks isn't made out of thin air. Look, I hate the term "both sides" for reasons anyone in Off-topic would understand, but maybe it applies here: maybe I'll learn from you, you'll learn from me, and we'll meet somewhere in a middle that says "Epic store sucks" but that's ok. It's ok.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,189
México
I agree with OP, and it's dissapointing to see that this thread has devolved into another EGS vs Steam debate instead of a debate of the toxic and damaging tone PC gamers are taking when talking this topic.
 

SaberVS7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,761
Crossposting from the PC ERA Discord and the other thread. A decent summary of the main points some of us truly take issue with.

 

Jobbs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,542
Agreed 100%.

‘fuck these devs’, ‘asshole devs’ and ‘trash developers’ gets flung around in EGS threads and it’s toxic as hell.
This bothers me *so much*. The Ooblets dev was a little snarky, sure (TBH I thought the blog post was more playful than mean), but the response here was disproportionate. Frequently calling them "trash people" and "fuck them" and so on. I don't understand why this type of language is allowed. It's literally hate. Over someone being a little bit confrontational when talking about their decision of how to publish their game. Most forms of hate (like racial hate) are not allowed here, so why is this?