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khamakazee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
On a personal level, I have had people:
Threaten to kill me (a credible enough threat that I called the police)
Try to find my house
Try to get me fired
Harass me for months
Sling massive amounts of racial slurs towards me
Call me subhuman

Sorry for sounding ignorant but why would anyone do that to you on a personal level, do you work for EGS or something? I get it that many over-react and are over the top on some topics but that sounds extreme to me for any situation, let alone about EGS.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,500
This happened recently, another form of toxicity, but from a developer this time.
--no--
These have already been posted, and at least one of these screenshots has been suspected of being doctored to make the devs in the discord look much much worse than the situation actually is in the discord.
Maybe we shouldn't source info from month-old twitter accounts with 5 followers, either, if we want to actually elevate discourse instead of continually stir the pot on a topic.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,713
It's just an example. The point I'm making is that sometimes you can only get a specific product at a specific store. Is it dumb? Maybe. But unless a product was promised to be available at one place before turning around and going "nah never mind" I don't really see what's the point of getting so upset.

Although it's definitely not something that people should be getting so hostile about, I cringe away from this kind of attitude. Not because it impacts where *I* buy the game, but because exclusivity to the EGS pretty much means being walled away from regional stores like Nuuvem, not to mention a variety of other places like GMG. It's not about going across the street from McDonald's to Taco Bell. It's about whether your position in life allows you to shop at Taco Bell instead of McDonald's

Sure, Steam has some of the same problems with certain regions/currencies being overpriced. So do Uplay/Origin/many others. But unlike Epic all of those stores tend to offer their keys for sale at regional retailers/websites. And I apologetically think that access to the same kind of entertainment that I, sitting here in relative economic comfort and security, have access to should be made available to people throughout the entire world. And as it stands these exclusivity deals are putting a crimp on that availability.

I know it's a small thing compared to food/good housing/medical care, but when I was a child and I sometimes had limited access to all three of those things, the books/games/toys I already owned offered me hope for a better future, and kept me from drowning in an abyss of sorrow. And I know that developers who need to provide essentials to themselves and their children don't have much choice but to take that money. But doing it while blithely dismissing those children who might want to dream about a better future is such a shame. And it's something that I'd like to see every angry person -- both the raged out gamers AND the developers of some of these games -- demand that Epic take action to correct.
 

Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
I hope Microsoft start restricting games that want to be in Xbox but not Window Store.
 

ThatOneGuy831

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,328
Onto the topic, its absolutely horrible that people have done those things to you Bronson. Some people just can't help themselves and take shit to the next level when its unnecessary and not even remotely acceptable. Hopefully this thread will be a wake up call for both sides to just chill the fuck out and think before they post so healthy discussion can take place. Hell I'll even admit that I've thought about posting some shit in EGS threads to attack people that think it's just another launcher but I dont because that isn't right and it doesn't add shit to the discussion at hand and it just makes me a piece of shit. Thank you BronsonLee for making this thread, it was sorely needed.
 

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,455
Sweden
These have already been posted, and at least one of these screenshots has been suspected of being doctored to make the devs in the discord look much much worse than the situation actually is in the discord.
Maybe we shouldn't source info from month-old twitter accounts with 5 followers, either, if we want to actually elevate discourse instead of continually stir the pot on a topic.
as a poster showed some pages ago, some of these screenshots are either doctored, or out of context.
The first one is legit, the other one has a response to other stuff posted under it to make it look like it is a response to the long post so that one isn't okay.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,145
Indonesia
I'm not entirely sure the PDF is that useful. If someone is generally uninterested in a topic, they likely aren't going to want to read a PDF on it, much less one that is 10 pages. It's just the nature of things.
I wonder, if someone is generally uninterested in EGS topic, why do they need to enter the threads and post their uninformed opinion over and over again?
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Sorry for sounding ignorant but why would anyone do that to you on a personal level, do you work for EGS or something? I get it that many over-react and are over the top on some topics but that sounds extreme to me for any situation, let alone about EGS.

Asking the wrong person on that one, couldn't tell ya. Can't really reconcile it in my mind.
 

Jarhab

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
189
I feel like there needs to be a sticky thread presenting all of the claims and rebuttals around the EGS debate. It's really annoying when someone joins a thread and posts "hey guys I don't know why people are so angry about this its just another launcher lol." Those posts instantly raise toxicity and irritate people who have already addressed those claims about a million times.

There needs to be a sticky thread that sums up the EGS debate and every EGS thread needs a link to it in the OP.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
I feel like there needs to be a sticky thread presenting all of the claims and rebuttals around the EGS debate. It's really annoying when someone joins a thread and posts "hey guys I don't know why people are so angry about this its just another launcher lol." Those posts instantly raise toxicity and irritate people who have already addressed those claims about a million times.

There needs to be a sticky thread that sums up the EGS debate and every EGS thread needs a link to it in the OP.
I mean, there could be, but people just ignore it.
 

Raccoon

Member
May 31, 2019
15,896
I feel like there needs to be a sticky thread presenting all of the claims and rebuttals around the EGS debate. It's really annoying when someone joins a thread and posts "hey guys I don't know why people are so angry about this its just another launcher lol." Those posts instantly raise toxicity and irritate people who have already addressed those claims about a million times.

There needs to be a sticky thread that sums up the EGS debate and every EGS thread needs a link to it in the OP.
I think that a couple of knowledgeable people from both sides (including krejlooc dammit) should be solicited to write detailed but concise statements regarding their positions, all to be compiled into a stickied megathread
 

ThatOneGuy831

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,328
I mean, there could be, but people just ignore it.
This. As helpful as it would be, there are still some people that would ignore it and post the same shit that doesn't help discussion ( e.g "Its just another launcher!"). I mean you have someone a few posts back that posted something that Bronson was clearly talking about (calling people that like Steam a cult) completely ignoring the mod post and OP.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728


I don't agree completely. Supporting developers does not mean customers are forced to support a platform they dislike. Yes it is great that developers are doing well, but Epic complaints shouldn't be dismissed as a mere tantrum.

I see his stance as the natural by-product of access-based journalism.

He needs to keep friendly contact with game devs to continue getting the scoops he does - that increased exposure results in increased empathy for their concerns over those of others.

It's why his follow up tweet expressing bewilderment that people call themselves consumers also happened.
 

Woodbeam

Member
May 6, 2019
687
The examples of hideously intense toxicity described in the OP are obviously completely legitimate. Unfortunately, barring some completely miraculous development, people that express that toxicity will always be present in some quantity. Moderation is the only solution against these people, they must simply be allowed no place in the discourse. But as the OP describes, these people are outliers. The reason discussions surrounding the Epic Games Store have become as generally heated as they are is different.

That reason is that what Epic is doing is unethical, full stop, and moderation here has been too lax on this issue. I'm going to quote myself here:
There really isn't anything to argue about with the Epic Games Store. The exclusivity agreements are its sole defining element. The revenue split isn't industry leading, and beyond that is moot because Epic's statements and practices have revealed that it's unsustainable for them. Their curation practices are essentially a match for where Steam was a decade ago, and have the same issues. They've suggested no effective means of solving those issues. The store's broader featureset is uncompetitive. Without the exclusivity agreements the Epic Games Store would simply be a quiet failure, there would be no discussion of it at all.

Everything comes down to whether you find the practice of buying exclusivity acceptable.
As to exactly why it's unethical, I can get into that if we really need to, and did a bit in the post I quoted, but since we're trying for a saner conversation here let's just take that as given for now.

We have no real power over Epic's course of action, or the developers and publishers that sign on with them, so we can't truly solve the problem, but we desire to lower toxicity here. How do we do that? Let's start by looking at the nature of these threads by describing the posters in them.

There are essentially 6 categories of posters arguing in these threads:

1. Those that see the exclusivity practice as unethical, and argue against it
2. Those that don't see this practice as unethical, and argue for it
3. Those that see this practice as unethical, and argue for it
4. Those that see this practice as unethical but support Epic for other reasons, or claim to
5. Those that see this practice as ethical, but don't support Epic for other reasons
6. The broadly uninformed that have nonetheless formed an opinion

The first category is completely reasonable, unless it gets into toxic territory.

The second category consists of people that are either somewhat uninformed/misinformed, misguided, or both. The best solution for them is a combination of a direct and detailed statement of the facts in threads on this subject (a mod post) and ongoing moderation in-thread with a low tolerance policy for those who ignore the facts in the mod post. The existing statement on threads on this subject is insufficient.

The third category consists of trolls. They do what trolls do: build toxicity while generally being careful to never cross the line into obvious expressions of bad faith, exploiting the inability to distinguish between people that truly believe in what they're arguing and people that don't. In reality it's rarely all that difficult to distinguish between the two, and what trolls are really exploiting is soft moderation. Obviously then what's needed to deal with them is (much) stronger moderation, again with the statement of the facts as the base for justifying moderating action.

The fourth category has obviously spurious arguments and consists of more trolls and people who've been duped. Moderation can be less harsh on them unless they're suspected of trolling, but they should be reminded of the facts.

The fifth category is weird, and effectively similar to the second. They're tough to moderate, but aren't very common. Again, remind them of the facts.

The sixth category is problematic whether they're arguing for or against the subject, but they tend to move with the status quo, which in this case is with Epic (these are the genuine "I don't know why people are so heated it's just another launcher" people). In that case their effect is the same as those who are knowingly trolling. Once again, an ignore-at-your-own-peril statement of the facts and strong moderation are the solution here.

If those solutions seem repetitive, you're right. If they seem similar to what's already in place, you're right. The difference between a toxic environment here and a better one is actually pretty simple, it just involves accepting some harsh realities: that what Epic is doing is unethical, and that moderation hasn't been good enough in standing against it. I'd also say that those posters in the first category that take clear stands and write detailed, relevant posts deserve more leniency. There have been instances where really excellent posters have gotten a bit heated in these threads and been banned, sometimes for rising to the bait of a troll. This is really unfortunate.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
I wonder, if someone is generally uninterested in EGS topic, why do they need to enter the threads and post their uninformed opinion over and over again?

For the same reason that people who don't game on PC go into Valve/Steam threads to shitpost

Hi. Let's have a chat.

We need to talk about how toxic discussion on the Epic Games Store is now. I mainly posted this in the Ooblets thread, but decided to break it out of there for its' own.

It's worse now than it's ever been, and it's been ramping up for quite a while. I don't forsee it getting better without communities attempting to work on stamping these things out, so I want to talk about them.

For example, in the past few months, I've seen people compare EGS and/or Tim Sweeney to:

Hitler
Genocide
War crimes
Racial trolling
a Chinese government spy agency (this one is popular)
Trump (this one too)
Gamergate

I have seen people call devs who take EGS deals:
Cunts
Whores
Thieves
Racist
Trash

On a personal level, I have had people:
Threaten to kill me (a credible enough threat that I called the police)
Try to find my house
Try to get me fired
Harass me for months
Sling massive amounts of racial slurs towards me
Call me subhuman

I don't note those last things for sympathy. I note them to show the more personal level that these things tend to go.

Flipping it around, I have seen people call people who don't want to use the EGS:
Children
Babies
Fanboys
Shills
People who should 'care more about something else' (I've done this personally, something I'm going to actively avoid doing now)

Those are all separate incidents.
Those are all separate people.

None of these things have anything to do with your PC gaming preference.
They have nothing to do with whether Valve earns their 30% cut, or whether Epic doesn't support Linux, or anything regarding technology or software.

They only exist for hate.

These outliers need to stop. They need to be called out when they happen. If they don't, the people saying these things will think that it's acceptable. It shouldn't be.

We can make our points without resorting to this level. We can express our displeasure for something without stooping this low.

We gotta do better.

Absolutely none of this is okay, and it sucks (understatement!) that you've had to deal with this. Yeah, we've got to do better, though it's not specific to EGS or Era - it's a societal issue that's become far worse due to social media and the rise of extremist (right-wing) views and outrage culture. One issue I run into is that mods push the "Report and move on" stance, which makes sense as calling out bad behaviour derails the topic, but also means there's no public consequences for being a dick/over-reacting. The other issue I have is that there's an inherent imbalance in how the opposite views are treated, which you touch on somewhat - calling a dev trash for taking a deal has worse ramifications here than calling people who have legitimate issues with the EGS (issues which other devs have expressed) fanboys or children. This invariably leads to frustration, which does not make anything better.

Edit: As an example, a lot of the issues we ("anti-EGS posters" you could say) express are also expressed by Rob Fearon, the dev of Death Ray Manta, who blogs about Valve/Steam/Indie games/The industry. But apparently, a dev expressing "EGS is just Steam circa the indie dev explosion of 10 years ago with all the same problems" doesn't matter as much as the dev who says "Woo, EGS is great fuck Steam!"?
 
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Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,113
The examples of hideously intense toxicity described in the OP are obviously completely legitimate. Unfortunately, barring some completely miraculous development, people that express that toxicity will always be present in some quantity. Moderation is the only solution against these people, they must simply be allowed no place in the discourse. But as the OP describes, these people are outliers. The reason discussions surrounding the Epic Games Store have become as generally heated as they are is different.

That reason is that what Epic is doing is unethical, full stop, and moderation here has been too lax on this issue. I'm going to quote myself here:

As to exactly why it's unethical, I can get into that if we really need to, and did a bit in the post I quoted, but since we're trying for a saner conversation here let's just take that as given for now.

We have no real power over Epic's course of action, or the developers and publishers that sign on with them, so we can't truly solve the problem, but we desire to lower toxicity here. How do we do that? Let's start by looking at the nature of these threads by describing the posters in them.

There are essentially 6 categories of posters arguing in these threads:

1. Those that see the exclusivity practice as unethical, and argue against it
2. Those that don't see this practice as unethical, and argue for it
3. Those that see this practice as unethical, and argue for it
4. Those that see this practice as unethical but support Epic for other reasons, or claim to
5. Those that see this practice as ethical, but don't support Epic for other reasons
6. The broadly uninformed that have nonetheless formed an opinion

The first category is completely reasonable, unless it gets into toxic territory.

The second category consists of people that are either somewhat uninformed/misinformed, misguided, or both. The best solution for them is a combination of a direct and detailed statement of the facts in threads on this subject (a mod post) and ongoing moderation in-thread with a low tolerance policy for those who ignore the facts in the mod post. The existing statement on threads on this subject is insufficient.

The third category consists of trolls. They do what trolls do: build toxicity while generally being careful to never cross the line into obvious expressions of bad faith, exploiting the inability to distinguish between people that truly believe in what they're arguing and people that don't. In reality it's rarely all that difficult to distinguish between the two, and what trolls are really exploiting is soft moderation. Obviously then what's needed to deal with them is (much) stronger moderation, again with the statement of the facts as the base for justifying moderating action.

The fourth category has obviously spurious arguments and consists of more trolls and people who've been duped. Moderation can be less harsh on them unless they're suspected of trolling, but they should be reminded of the facts.

The fifth category is weird, and effectively similar to the second. They're tough to moderate, but aren't very common. Again, remind them of the facts.

The sixth category is problematic whether they're arguing for or against the subject, but they tend to move with the status quo, which in this case is with Epic (these are the genuine "I don't know why people are so heated it's just another launcher" people). In that case their effect is the same as those who are knowingly trolling. Once again, an ignore-at-your-own-peril statement of the facts and strong moderation are the solution here.

If those solutions seem repetitive, you're right. If they seem similar to what's already in place, you're right. The difference between a toxic environment here and a better one is actually pretty simple, it just involves accepting some harsh realities: that what Epic is doing is unethical, and that moderation hasn't been good enough in standing against it. I'd also say that those posters in the first category that take clear stands and write detailed, relevant posts deserve more leniency. There have been instances where really excellent posters have gotten a bit heated in these threads and been banned, sometimes for rising to the bait of a troll. This is really unfortunate.

What about people who simply don't care if a game is exclusive or not. People who assign 0 value to a game being exclusive, and don't understand why someone else would care so much over a disposable form of entertainment because it matters absolutely not at all to them? Are they trolling because they find no inherent value in a game being on a specific platform or not?
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
Hey OP, that's pretty terrible. Yeah these threads have become increasingly toxic and people really need to cool down. There's no reason to send anyone threats over this.
 

Jarhab

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
189
I see his stance as the natural by-product of access-based journalism.

He needs to keep friendly contact with game devs to continue getting the scoops he does - that increased exposure results in increased empathy for their concerns over those of others.

It's why his follow up tweet expressing bewilderment that people call themselves consumers also happened.

I think that's definitely part of it. I think the other part is some misguided sense of principles. For example, Schreier says he supports anything that breaks up Steam's "monopoly." Being anti-monopoly sounds good in principle but Steam isn't a monopoly and its existence has improved PC gaming in countless ways. He also says he supports anything that helps developers gain financial stability... really? So does that mean Kotaku is never going to write negative press about games, developers or publishers? Because all of those things hurt a developer's financial stability.

Basically, most EGS defenders really haven't put a lot of thought into their positions.

What about people who simply don't care if a game is exclusive or not. People who assign 0 value to a game being exclusive, and don't understand why someone else would care so much over a disposable form of entertainment because it matters absolutely not at all to them? Are they trolling because they find no inherent value in a game being on a specific platform or not?

If those people don't care about the topic, they shouldn't get involved in the debate. People who don't care are generally the least informed and have the least to contribute to any discussion.
 

TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,713
I see his stance as the natural by-product of access-based journalism.

He needs to keep friendly contact with game devs to continue getting the scoops he does - that increased exposure results in increased empathy for their concerns over those of others.

It's why his follow up tweet expressing bewilderment that people call themselves consumers also happened.

The thing about consumers made me giggle because people saying "consumer" is partially a reaction to people not wanting to identify as "gamers" anymore. Which is something that the game journalism world pushed pretty hard a few years back (understandably, since they were being cynically targeted by shitters who loved to identify as "gamers").
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,145
Indonesia
What about people who simply don't care if a game is exclusive or not. People who assign 0 value to a game being exclusive, and don't understand why someone else would care so much over a disposable form of entertainment because it matters absolutely not at all to them? Are they trolling because they find no inherent value in a game being on a specific platform or not?
Then those people should simply stay put and not participate in the discussion?
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
If those people don't care about the topic, they shouldn't get involved in the debate. People who don't care are generally the least informed and have the least to contribute to any discussion.

The FAQ actually says this:

If you have nothing of substance to contribute to a thread it may be best to avoid it.

Then again, the FAQ also says that users should read the OP in its entirety, so *shrugs*

Edit: I think a lot of good would come from the mods/admins more strictly enforcing the above two guidelines.
 

ThatOneGuy831

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,328
What about people who simply don't care if a game is exclusive or not. People who assign 0 value to a game being exclusive, and don't understand why someone else would care so much over a disposable form of entertainment because it matters absolutely not at all to them? Are they trolling because they find no inherent value in a game being on a specific platform or not?
Then these people have 1 of 2 options.
A.) Get educated on why people have a problem with exclusivity on PC. Or
B.) Don't participate in the discussion. Contrary to popular belief you dont have to participate in every single thread that passes through Resetera
 

Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678


I don't agree completely. Supporting developers does not mean customers are forced to support a platform they dislike. Yes it is great that developers are doing well, but Epic complaints shouldn't be dismissed as a mere tantrum.


Its not wonder that Kotaku said absolutely nothing when the THQ stuff happened.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,544
If you're directing that language at the dev, then it is harassment. If you're saying to somone else, "That dev is trash", then it is not. If someone came up to you in person and started calling you trash, and then thousands of other people did too you would definitely have every right to say you're being harassed. Because that is what harassment is.
This is fair. I'd say that most of the time when I see such sentiments expressed, it's to the Broad Internet Ether, ie, on a forum where said devs are highly unlikely to see it - and even if they do, it wouldn't be like the person who said that specifically wrote it for them to see like it would if they, say, tagged the devs on a discord or whatever.
That entirely depends on whether you are calling the devs trash or calling the decision to take Epic's deal trash, there is a difference and one slides slightly to close to harassment for comfort. Besides that I feel using trash at all is needlessly aggressive and confrontational which is kind of the point of the thread, to tone down on needless aggressiveness (or worse) when discussing/arguing about heated subjects as it's currently feeding an Ouroboros of toxic discussion on the Internet in general.

I also want to point at that almost anyone, including me, would take the deal Epic is offering in their position, especially indie dev's so it shouldn't be too difficult to be understanding of the decision. By all means be disappointed and by all means be annoyed with Epic/EGS for creating the situation to begin with but taking it out on the developers is misguided and self-defeating, if not slightly hypocritical. There are caveats with things like moneyhats involving Kickstarter where devs have a little more share in the blame but going on the offensive and getting aggressive is never the right answer. None of this means you can't criticise, (I certainly do as I'm very much in the against-EGS camp) but do it healthily.
I see devs, and their business choices, get called trash all the time on here, regardless of how much sense it makes for them from a business standpoint. I would hesitate to call this harassment. I mean, I very often take the position that some choices deserve less criticism than they get, but I wouldn't say that people arguing otherwise are harassing devs.

I guess if someone were to go to their twitter, and just repeatedly say things like "hey dev, you suck!", then, yeah, that's going too far, but I think it's fair to express sharply negative sentiments to them in the broad, unaddressed form. I suppose on the one hand it could be argued to simply tone down the rhetoric for gaming discussion across the board, but also, that verges into tone policing.
 
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Landford

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,678
which could be fair criticism. But, that's not what you said tho.

I apologize. I was mistaken. Doesnt change the fact they didnt do anything else later (again, as far as I know, might be mistaken) and then kept on promoting THQ games like nothing happened.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
What about people who simply don't care if a game is exclusive or not. People who assign 0 value to a game being exclusive, and don't understand why someone else would care so much over a disposable form of entertainment because it matters absolutely not at all to them? Are they trolling because they find no inherent value in a game being on a specific platform or not?

If they don't care, they could continue not caring without making it a point to let everyone know whenever they get a chance. Especially when they claim ignorance on the topic from the start anyhow. Not every topic or post requires that two cents. I never understood why people post that they don't care about something or understand on topics where many people clearly do care or describe why they're frustrated to begin with.
 

Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,113
Then those people should simply stay put and not participate in the discussion?

I suppose perhaps they were caught off guard with the bits and pieces about getting death threats and what not. Or perhaps they were strangely hoping that they could explain their POV, when in reality no one care's about anyone else's POV that isn't in line with what they think.

Then these people have 1 of 2 options.
A.) Get educated on why people have a problem with exclusivity on PC. Or
B.) Don't participate in the discussion. Contrary to popular belief you dont have to participate in every single thread that passes through Resetera

Exclusivity has existed on PCs since it began though, so it's nothing new. There were definitely a bunch of Mac games when I was a kid I would have loved on my PC (and how about all those Mac only gamers who constantly had to deal with missing out on games not released on Macs). Oregon trail just wasn't the same in DOS. I'm not saying it's good that games are made exclusive, but perhaps for some people it simply doesn't matter one way or the other, like I said above, they simply assign such little value to it, it is not worth getting invested in. They just play a different game, and it's of no consequence to them.
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,105
Australia
This is fair. I'd say that most of the time when I see such sentiments expressed, it's to the Broad Internet Ether, ie, on a forum where said devs are highly unlikely to see it - and even if they do, it wouldn't be like the person who said that specifically wrote it for them to see like it would if they, say, tagged the devs on a discord or whatever.

I see devs, and their business choices, get called trash all the time on here, regardless of how much sense it makes for them from a business standpoint. I would very much hesitate to call this harassment. I mean, I very often take the position that some choices deserve less criticism than they get, but I wouldn't say that people arguing otherwise are harassing devs.

I guess if someone were to go to their twitter, and just repeatedly say things like "hey dev, you suck!", then, yeah, that's going too far, but I think it's fair to express sharply negative sentiments to them in the broad, unaddressed form. I suppose on the one hand it could be argued to simply tone down the rhetoric for gaming discussion across the board, but also, that verges into tone policing.
I don't think it is harassment unless you're going out of your way to directly tell the devs that they're trash. What I said was that it's getting too close to that point for me (personally, IMO) to be comfortable with as it's entirely unnecessary to be inflammatory to get a point across (I'm guilty of this as well). I would also note that the argument of "others are doing it, hence it's fine for me to do it" is not the greatest one ;) I get your point though and I would argue that calling people (Dev's being people) trash whole cloth is not good for anybody whether you do it, I do it or the rest of the forum does it.

Sure, I'm not going to dictate how you should act or address yourself and others, it's not my place and I dislike tone policing as much as anyone but I generally find being overly acerbic in expressing criticism rarely (if ever) helps any more than level-headed, well reasoned and straightforward criticism does. Heck, from my personal experience it tends to make things worse and contributes to the general toxicity of online discourse, hence why I find it self-defeating and not the best course of action.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
I see his stance as the natural by-product of access-based journalism.

He needs to keep friendly contact with game devs to continue getting the scoops he does - that increased exposure results in increased empathy for their concerns over those of others.

It's why his follow up tweet expressing bewilderment that people call themselves consumers also happened.

Dunno, I see Jason's stance as that of someone who also understands the perspective of a game developer, which I think is sorely lacking from a lot of the discourse on Era.

People have a right to be disappointed if a he they want isn't coming to their platform of choice, especially if they have legitimate concerns about the platform said game is releasing on, but there's ways to go about expressing that and a lot of people both here and across the website

I think many get far too wrapped up in the concept of their entitlements as a consumer, forgetting that there are also certain rights that we as game developers, should be afforded, as the people bending over backwards to make sure that the games you love so much even get made in the first place, let alone published on your launcher of choice.

A balance needs to be struck, and right now that's not happening on either side of the fence. It's embarrassing.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768


I don't agree completely. Supporting developers does not mean customers are forced to support a platform they dislike. Yes it is great that developers are doing well, but Epic complaints shouldn't be dismissed as a mere tantrum.

So what is it he is saying here? That people should accept EGS because Epic gives developers checks? So therefore accept this inferior product? Again. No. Such a insane anti-consumer argument.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
I suppose perhaps they were caught off guard with the bits and pieces about getting death threats and what not. Or perhaps they were strangely hoping that they could explain their POV, when in reality no one care's about anyone else's POV that isn't in line with what they think.



Exclusivity has existed on PCs since it began though, so it's nothing new. There were definitely a bunch of Mac games when I was a kid I would have loved on my PC (and how about all those Mac only gamers who constantly had to deal with missing out on games not released on Macs). Oregon trail just wasn't the same in DOS. I'm not saying it's good that games are made exclusive, but perhaps for some people it simply doesn't matter one way or the other, like I said above, they simply assign such little value to it, it is not worth getting invested in. They just play a different game, and it's of no consequence to them.
Theres a difference between exclusives like that and how epic is handling exclusives. Epic is specifically buying exclusives to keep off of steam especially with the kickstarters but also most games.
Dunno, I see Jason's stance as that of someone who also understands the perspective of a game developer, which I think is sorely lacking from a lot of the discourse on Era.

People have a right to be disappointed if a he they want isn't coming to their platform of choice, especially if they have legitimate concerns about the platform said game is releasing on, but there's ways to go about expressing that and a lot of people both here and across the website

I think many get far too wrapped up in the concept of their entitlements as a consumer, forgetting that there are also certain rights that we as game developers, should be afforded, as the people bending over backwards to make sure that the games you love so much even get made in the first place, let alone published on your launcher of choice.

A balance needs to be struck, and right now that's not happening on either side of the fence. It's embarrassing.
Developers have those entitlements, they can release games where ever they want but they are not entitled to people buying their game.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
Theres a difference between exclusives like that and how epic is handling exclusives. Epic is specifically buying exclusives to keep off of

How Jason is handling it isn't

Developers have those entitlements, they can release games where ever they want but they are not entitled to people buying their game.

This just reads like a straw man argument. I don't think there's a single developer out there who truly believes that they are entitled to game sales.

You not supporting a game because it's not on your launcher of choice, and because you have issues with the launcher it is available on is your business, but it helps absolutely no one at the end of the day.

You're more than entitled to do that, but developers are also entitled to disagree with that stance in the same you're entitled to disagree with their choice of platform. That doesn't mean they feel entitled to your money. No one thinks that.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
This just reads like a straw man argument. I don't think there's a single developer out there who truly believes that they are entitled to game sales.

You not supporting a game because it's not on your launcher of choice, and because you have issues with the launcher it is available on is your business, but it helps absolutely no one at the end of the day.

You're more than entitled to do that, but developers are also entitled to disagree with that stance in the same you're entitled to disagree with their choice of platform. That doesn't mean they feel entitled to your money. No one thinks that.
It seems like some do expect people to give up and buy their game on the epic store. It's not a strawman argument at all but developers can do what is best for them. I'll do what's best for me and that's calling out egs at every opportunity because it's actively making gaming worst.

All in all though we look at this differently
 
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Middleman

Banned
Jun 14, 2019
928
The simplest "solution" would be to ban discussion or promotion of the EGS.

Of course it's not really a solution, because there's plenty of toxicity to go around on other topics, but it would dampen down a flashpoint.
Banning discussion of a topic purely because a few juvenile fanboys can't control their emotions when discussing it is ridiculous.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I'm generally against content bans for things like this. While it would be easier (and I am incredibly lazy), I don't think it would solve much, unfortunately.

We gotta identify the main issues (I think we have) and find a way to tighten things up.
 

ThatOneGuy831

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,328
I suppose perhaps they were caught off guard with the bits and pieces about getting death threats and what not. Or perhaps they were strangely hoping that they could explain their POV, when in reality no one care's about anyone else's POV that isn't in line with what they think.



Exclusivity has existed on PCs since it began though, so it's nothing new. There were definitely a bunch of Mac games when I was a kid I would have loved on my PC (and how about all those Mac only gamers who constantly had to deal with missing out on games not released on Macs). Oregon trail just wasn't the same in DOS. I'm not saying it's good that games are made exclusive, but perhaps for some people it simply doesn't matter one way or the other, like I said above, they simply assign such little value to it, it is not worth getting invested in. They just play a different game, and it's of no consequence to them.
And that's fine. If they don't care that a certain game is exclusive to the EGS and don't want to invest the time to learn why other people have a problem with it, they can go for it! I'm not gonna stop them, but they shouldn't be surprised that if they walk into a thread about the topic with something like "I don't see a problem with X game being exclusive to the EGS" that people are gonna jump on them for it or they will potentially catch a ban or warning if the topic guidelines is posted as per usual.
 

Jarhab

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
189
Dunno, I see Jason's stance as that of someone who also understands the perspective of a game developer, which I think is sorely lacking from a lot of the discourse on Era.

People have a right to be disappointed if a he they want isn't coming to their platform of choice, especially if they have legitimate concerns about the platform said game is releasing on, but there's ways to go about expressing that and a lot of people both here and across the website

I think many get far too wrapped up in the concept of their entitlements as a consumer, forgetting that there are also certain rights that we as game developers, should be afforded, as the people bending over backwards to make sure that the games you love so much even get made in the first place, let alone published on your launcher of choice.

A balance needs to be struck, and right now that's not happening on either side of the fence. It's embarrassing.

Except Jason's stance is hypocritical. If he's all for supporting developers, Kotaku should no longer publish anything that portrays games in a negative light. After all, if a game gets a poor review, that's likely going to hurt sales and put livelihoods at stake. Jason's support for developers is conditional. He just doesn't see pro-consumer distribution as one of those conditions.

It's entirely reasonable for consumers to be against business strategies that hurt them. Timed exclusivity is great for devs/pubs and lousy for consumers. Developers have the right to make money by any means possible and consumers have the right to criticize those means.

Also, it's pretty disingenuous to refer to Steam and GOG as nothing more than launchers. That's like saying PS4 and Xbox are just launchers. No, these are platforms that offer features and services beyond the mere ability to launch games. EGS, on the other hand, lacks all of these things so it can fairly be called nothing more than a launcher.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
My favorite is the nonstop suggestion that because you don't find the issue as pressing as them, getting accused of being a console gamer that doesn't known anything about the topic.

Just suggesting that maybe people shouldn't be going around calling people cunts or sick fucks in that Skatebird thread got me condescended to like this for the 10th time. Just look at how ANGRY that thread is when it is basically just Epic's stated strategy. It is arguably a more absurd thread than the Ooblets one, which at least has a dev acting abrasive.
 

Jarhab

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
189
My favorite is the nonstop suggestion that because you don't find the issue as pressing as them, getting accused of being a console gamer that doesn't known anything about the topic.

Just suggesting that maybe people shouldn't be going around calling people cunts or sick fucks in that Skatebird thread got me condescended to like this for the 10th time. Just look at how ANGRY that thread is when it is basically just Epic's stated strategy. It is arguably a more absurd thread than the Ooblets one, which at least has a dev acting abrasive.

People were upset about the Skatebird example because Epic has repeatedly proclaimed themselves as pro-developer. They've developed an entire narrative around the 30% cut being ridiculous and that EGS exists to help developers by reducing that cut. Then the Skatebird incident reveals that they actually don't give a shit about devs and just want to hurt competitors by depriving them of games.

None of this is particularly shocking, as Epic's actions have been contradicting their claims ever since EGS launched. However, to get official confirmation from an indie dev was quite refreshing.
 

Sedated

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,598
Haven't used EGS after trying to buy a game on their big sale and realized how shit their store was. I dont agree with jason at all. Developers and their financial issues are their matter and we consumers got our own. We shouldn't be having to 'understand' when a developer accepts epic money. Because we do understand why. It is pretty simple. That does not mean we cannot criticize or show disappointment. There are cases of big developers choosing epic exclusivity as well who do not have such financial woes mentioned by jason. Outrage is good and there are always some who take it too far, but that should not dismiss the valid opinions of the majority.
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,970
User Warned - Driveby posting
I'm not sure there's a demographic corporations have by the balls more than gamers.

I've never seen grown men turn into rabid babies over such boring shit (press conferences, digital storefronts, temporary exclusivity of ephemeral digital goods).

Like at least street team people leave the house when they're shilling for free.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
It's absolutely ridiculous that instead of just expecting people to be reasonable and civil and enforcing the rules on those that aren't, we're discussing the possibility of just banning discussion of any EGS exclusives. Yeah, let's not talk about Borderlands 3 or Shenmue because it's too hard to get people to control themselves.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
I'm not sure there's a demographic corporations have by the balls more than gamers.

I've never seen grown men turn into rabid babies over such boring shit (press conferences, digital storefronts, temporary exclusivity of ephemeral digital goods).

Like at least street team people leave the house when they're shilling for free.

Clearly, you didn't read the OP.

Flipping it around, I have seen people call people who don't want to use the EGS:
Children
Babies
Fanboys
Shills

BronsonLee How do we escape this vicious cycle of people who don't care about the topic coming in and being abusive?
 

Timeaisis

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,139
Austin, TX
Why do people care about EGS so damn mic
I feel like there needs to be a sticky thread presenting all of the claims and rebuttals around the EGS debate. It's really annoying when someone joins a thread and posts "hey guys I don't know why people are so angry about this its just another launcher lol." Those posts instantly raise toxicity and irritate people who have already addressed those claims about a million times.

There needs to be a sticky thread that sums up the EGS debate and every EGS thread needs a link to it in the OP.
whats the debate? What are we ever debating?