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We need to talk about how toxic discussing the Epic Games Store is when it comes to accusations and insults (Read OP and Threadmarks Before Posting)

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
599
California
Could we try having a calm discussion about EGS just to see how it goes? I can state my own personal opinion. Context: not really played on PC outside of Football Manager in the past, which I played through Stream. Mostly a console gamer, in the past both Nintendo and Sony but nowadays only Switch.

EGS is trying to build of the success of Fortnite to setup their own PC store front. The current market leader, Steam, has such a big share that you might as well call it a monopoly. For now Steam does most things really well despite having a monopoly, and most users of it are happy with the old status quo:
I'm sorry but how can I have a discussion with you if you intend on calling Steam a monopoly when even you admit it isn't? It's clear you're trying to make Valve look extra "bad" by coloring your descriptions with false labels. Then you make claims like "happy with the old status quo:" as if you're uninformed Valve has been transforming the Linux gaming landscape that, if you ever tried to play games on Linux only a year ago and wanted to fully switch but couldn't, you're head would be spinning. They're not just sitting around.

So right there you're coming in here with two false statements and asking for a calm discussion. How am I supposed to approach this here? Then when it happens every other page in a thread?
 

TheOne

Member
May 25, 2019
291
Is your boycott of EGS and when a EGS exclusive you find interesting releases elsewhere you’ll consider it sans-bias, or is this something where you won’t buy game that ever took Epic’s deal?
If I chose option 1, I'd put my convictions down the barrel. No, for me, it's the latter. I'm not purchasing on EGS nor will I purchase World War Z or Metro Exodus for example if they ever leave the EGS. Please bear with me on this one, as it may seem hard to grasp at first but it really isn't when you deepen your thinking about it. The money I wanted to spend on those games? I'll spend it on other games. As I said, games aren't on short supplies. Good devs aren't on short supplies either.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,147
User banned (5 days): trolling and misrepresenting moderation over a series of posts
Yeah, I think the last time I got temp banned in this place was me laughing out loud at EGS over reactions. So mods here aren’t immune to the volatility either.
 

Mpl90

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,199
Shitposts aside, some real talk for a second.

The toxicity has fuck all to do with the EGS. Or console wars. Or Pokemon. and thus i find the threadtopic to be almost a bit misleading.
It's all about this community.
Other forums. discords and my own twitter "bubble" manage just fine to talk about any of these things, with disagreements and opposing opinions and all that jizz just fine.
It's the population of this forum that is completely drowned in negativity, confrontational attitudes, condescening, smug posts and gotcha-garbage, you can see it in every thread.
People aren't interested in conversations, they are interested in "owning" and attempting to be "better than those awful [nondescript group of people].".

And i too, must admit that it has been getting to me and made me more toxic as a result, engaging in similar patterns.
Which is one of the reasons i have been using this forum a lot less in recent times and consider not to use it at all anymore.

There is no solution to this and nothing no moderation could fix.
Unless people on this forum grow as human beings, it's gonna stay like that.

Heck, you can see people ITT literally agreeing with the OP by.... posting more toxic responses.
This this THIS!

The past few months, we've witnessed NPD threads harassing insiders to the point of making them leave; Nintendo rumour threads getting so toxic against insiders for getting things wrong they almost completely stopped to share anything; the EGS threads problem, the disgusting dismissal of Etika's mental health, as well as Media Create threads being polluted by the gotcha-ism (and now, alt accounts have joined the fight! How lovely!). And these are just the examples I've seen with my own eyes / I have at least minimal knowledge about. It's not just an EGS Discussion's problem; it's a Community-wide problem. Both the members themselves and the moderation who, probably, just can't / don't know what else to do (by the way, while I don't think it's the only solution, I'd recommend to use the report function properly, it can work), besides moderating as always and slapping [SEE STAFF POST] in the title of topics they sure know can't be regulated enough.

I just hope moderators and admins can take this thread as a feedback thread of sorts (since we all know how well things went the other time) and start to accept that things can't go on like this. I mean, the members themselves should accept it as well, but I fear it might be more difficult. Accepting that there is a problem is the first (difficult) step to take in order to recognise that there IS a problem and to finally try to think "How can we solve this? Or, at least, try to make things better?". Yes, it's an Internet-wide problem, but doing nothing is not acceptable, and I fear things might even get worse and worse if nothing is done. And it's such a shame to see so many times how the moderation said "things are going to change! we'll do better" and they don't: it's a never-ending spiral, it's time to change the direction...the more time we waste, the worse things will get and the more difficult trying to improve things will get. Personally, opening an actual feedback channel (heavily regulated) while deeply overhauling the forum rules / moderation guidelines would be a start, but that's just the opinion of someone who was so in love with the idea of a better place than NeoGAF, and now he's witnessing things going in shambles, with toxicity winning and (at least) no signs of improvements in sight.

Also, trying to be a bit more OT: BronsonLee I'm deeply sorry for what you faced, it's frankly disgusting it reached such a low level.
 

Chauzu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,388
I'm sorry but how can I have a discussion with you if you intend on calling Steam a monopoly when even you admit it isn't? It's clear you're trying to make Valve look extra "bad" by coloring your descriptions with false labels. Then you make claims like "happy with the old status quo:" as if you're uninformed Valve has been transforming the Linux gaming landscape that, if you ever tried to play games on Linux only a year ago and wanted to fully switch but couldn't, you're head would be spinning. They're not just sitting around.

So right there you're coming in here with two false statements and asking for a calm discussion. How am I supposed to approach this here? Then when it happens every other page in a thread?
You are free to correct my inevitable mistakes for not being that well versed in the subject and leave it there, there really is no need to get so worked up. It is in my personal opinion that the market share of Steam is unhealthy and to me it might as well be called a monopoly, but as you said I did point out it might not be.

I’m sorry but the Linux part is so out of there to me so I’m not sure what to respond, but I do know I said clearly that Valve hasn’t done anything really to make consumers unhappy, so I think that’s another example to add to it.

Thanks for replying, I’m happy to continue talking if we do it calmly.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,167
The post I quoted suggested that once EGS exclusive games would receive a harsh reception in other platforms. No one is entitled to a sale or a game, sure, but developers are entitled to fair treatment and making a financial choice shouldn’t be a Scarlett letter on them and their game because the money came from a shithead. It’s not like Sweeney is an alt-right shitbag or something where there is actual moral grounds of objection to association,
I would hope developers feel customers are entitled to their games otherwise what are they making games for? Epic payouts?

I'll be disappointed in a Dev taking the deal because it means epic will continue to keep making the deals but I won't hold it against them...and yeah frankly it sucks waiting of course lol.

I'll be getting control on PC in a year (on whatever platform has the best deal) and play it on Xbox when it's out at launch.

Sweeny is not an alt right guy no but is that the only way we need to not support people?
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,912
Tim Sweeney is deliberately stoking antagonism between players and developers, and that's kinda been at the heart of his strategy for EGS so far.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Member
May 9, 2018
770
1. Publishers routinely fail to support developers even through project number one so I don't see how you think Epic signing a publisher deal would guarantee anything to anyone.
But then at least Epic gets bad PR for letting the developers down. With this all they do is throw money and absolve themselves of consequences.
2. Maybe if the community chooses to not be a toxic shit pit the developer can release their really good games elsewhere and people won't act like goddamn children because a developer made a sound business choice?
I'll paraquote here, but I understand that they made a business decision, but given that it's a decision that directly and negatively impacts me, I have elected to oppose it.

Lootboxes are a "sound business decision". Pay-to-win microtransactions are a "sound business decision". AI-driven targeted analytics adjusting every given person's experience to squeeze every last cent out of them are a "sound business decision".

Generally speaking, in this industry just considering every gamer to be a sentient wallet hooked up to a mouse and keyboard, constitutes the core of a "sound business decision". Pardon me, but I refuse to be taken advantage of just so someone else can make more money. You can say that businesses are not our friends all you like, but there are different ways of doing business, and some - like Valve - have found ways to do business that don't antagonize their customers. Somehow.

Your example is basically a form of internet mob extortion. "well you took that exclusive deal that made a ton of financial sense but now we're going to treat you like a pariah even if we like your games".
I actually got the idea from MAD. Where the threat of unavoidable retaliation forces all sides to play nice.

Thats absurd. Especially when the storefront their being kept off of fosters a one of the worst cesspits of PC gamers on the planet, including being the ranting ground for someone who recently went on a shooting spree and selling a game that included slave Tetris for a few years.
Oh really, just lambasting Steam now. Do you know that every social media platform is secretly a cesspit? Every platform has had one maniac or another use it for getting attention, every platform has the usual neo-Nazi underground somewhere that nobody roots out because they're somehow acceptable nowadays, and are you against adult games being sold on principle? Because I don't see a problem with properly tagged, age-gated, and hidden-by-default content that some people make, and other people buy.

Do you bring this argument up against Patreon, home of more depraved H-games than I ever cared to count?

Rings about as true as the entire "Tencent owns Epic so CHINA!" bullshit. Steam recently delisted a game because of a slight jab at the ruler of China. That game is probably never going back up. Yet Epic are China's puppet storefront to get all that prime PC gamer playtime dirt they'll use to conquer the world?
Well, Steam actually sells their games in China. How would the Americans like it if a major game ridiculed their presi-...on second thought, bad example at the moment. But, you get the gist. Especially with a country like China, you want extra care taken if you want your games to keep being sold there. It's the same thing as political correctness, avoiding nation-specific slurs and the like.

This gets to the core of what this thread is about. People holding a grudge/feeling personally offended because someone did something that gave them less than their ideal way to buy and play video games. Never mind how beneficial it might be for the developer, what other factors may be at play, or the larger societal ills present on the storefront now being defended by the zeitgeist.

See the toxicity in this mindset?
Have you missed the time Epic Games quit on PC gaming due to rampant piracy and left Valve to pick up the pieces? Have you missed how Steam brought together PC gaming as a platform, providing many of the features that are standard on gaming consoles, for free, to everyone? Have you missed Steam constantly improving and adjusting to the requirements of both its paying userbase and developer clientelle, year after year?

Valve did not attain a loyal Steam userbase by doing nothing. They got it by growing and adapting over the years, always putting service and convenience first. They are not perfect, but they do not proclaim their sainthood from the tall spires of social media like a certain other company set to dethrone them. They provide good services at a reasonable price and great convenience, to gamers and developers alike. Just because someone else found a way to make things cheaper for developers by using Valve's work and snubbing half of the world's gamers, does not mean the gamers, as consumers, should be happy about it.

And if that company then gets up on stage and parades their deeds along with the developers they've roped into it, proclaiming themselves to be the light of hope in the world oppressed by Valve, I will feel no shame when reaching for the box of overripe tomatoes.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
2,905
The post I quoted suggested that once EGS exclusive games would receive a harsh reception in other platforms. No one is entitled to a sale or a game, sure, but developers are entitled to fair treatment and making a financial choice shouldn’t be a Scarlett letter on them and their game because the money came from a shithead. It’s not like Sweeney is an alt-right shitbag or something where there is actual moral grounds of objection to association,
It may not even be a harsh reception on other platforms but general indifference. Even a good game might have a short lifespan in terms of consumer mindshare. The new hotness is always changing. Release a game on another platform a year later, and it's competing with other games that are fresher in people's minds. Now let's assume that the games are just average. Release an average game a year later, and who's really paying attention to it? People will already have dozens of reviews to look at from when the game originally released so there's even less of a chance for it to be successful on a different platform. The Epic money might help the devs initially, but they better be pleased with launch sales because late ports rarely do that well with how fast the market moves on.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,167
Yeah, I think the last time I got temp banned in this place was me laughing out loud at EGS over reactions. So mods here aren’t immune to the volatility either.
I would argue that laughing out loud to something you don't agree with adds nothing to a discussion and only fuels toxic behaviour.

Mods doing their job are not being volatile.
 

Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,868
Yeah, I think the last time I got temp banned in this place was me laughing out loud at EGS over reactions. So mods here aren’t immune to the volatility either.
Sounds like you deserved it. It’s unnecessary. That’s almost as bad as the “here for the salt” posts. It’s a bummer that you learned nothing from it.
 
Jun 2, 2019
772
no, it's about outliers. you just accused everyone against egs of sending death threats to devs. stop that
Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel the need to defend a mega corp?
I couldn't care less about Epic, I'm just dumbfounded to see the pc community raising such a stink for what is basically nothing.

This is even worse than when Microsoft wanted us to pay for online play with their shitty and buggy launcher.

That was a crisis. In my eyes, this is a tantrum
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,111
Well, Steam actually sells their games in China. How would the Americans like it if a major game ridiculed their presi-...on second thought, bad example at the moment. But, you get the gist. Especially with a country like China, you want extra care taken if you want your games to keep being sold there. It's the same thing as political correctness, avoiding nation-specific slurs and the like.

Have you missed the time Epic Games quit on PC gaming due to rampant piracy and left Valve to pick up the pieces? Have you missed how Steam brought together PC gaming as a platform, providing many of the features that are standard on gaming consoles, for free, to everyone? Have you missed Steam constantly improving and adjusting to the requirements of both its paying userbase and developer clientelle, year after year?

Valve did not attain a loyal Steam userbase by doing nothing. They got it by growing and adapting over the years, always putting service and convenience first. They are not perfect, but they do not proclaim their sainthood from the tall spires of social media like a certain other company set to dethrone them. They provide good services at a reasonable price and great convenience, to gamers and developers alike. Just because someone else found a way to make things cheaper for developers by using Valve's work and snubbing half of the world's gamers, does not mean the gamers, as consumers, should be happy about it.

And if that company then gets up on stage and parades their deeds along with the developers they've roped into it, proclaiming themselves to be the light of hope in the world oppressed by Valve, I will feel no shame when reaching for the box of overripe tomatoes.
I wanna point out that Steam didnt delist the Chinese game. It was the publisher (who bailed out as they are in China) and later on developers (once they got the hands on the thing) that decided to delist it after the pushback from chinese users that ended up nearly doxxing them (and costed the developers their relationship with their publisher). The only thing Valve did was temporarily remove it from sale in China until the developers answered (and I think that was also asked by devs).
Steam does have an issue where they should be delisting more trash / troll games, but that goes in hand with being an open platform as you say (but they could do better).

And part of the issue with EGS as Sean points out is that EGS doesnt believe that a better service will attract users. They have continuously said that their customer is not us (the ones paying) but developers, and that they believe the current status of stores (not theirs but think more like Origin) is good enough and do not need improvements. The part of competition making everyone better is when both parts are trying to challenge themselves and try to improve, not when one part just stagnates (or "improve" to levels they should have launched in and then slowly stay the same) and uses money to cover up for that. We already saw that in Origin, where the launcher has always been a secondary thing that has barely seen any improvement since launch (compared to GoG who is a "true" competitor).
 

Absolute

Member
Nov 6, 2017
785
I couldn't care less about Epic, I'm just dumbfounded to see the pc community raising such a stink for what is basically nothing.

This is even worse than when Microsoft wanted us to pay for online play with their shitty and buggy launcher.

That was a crisis. In my eyes, this is a tantrum
Being dismissive concerns (which are well explained) and relating those concerns to a tantrum that a baby throws is completely toxic and what OP is talking about.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
Athens, Greece
I couldn't care less about Epic, I'm just dumbfounded to see the pc community raising such a stink for what is basically nothing.

This is even worse than when Microsoft wanted us to pay for online play with their shitty and buggy launcher.

That was a crisis. In my eyes, this is a tantrum
It might be nothing to you but it has been thoroughly explained time and time again why it matters to other people. Since you do not care about the Epic store why caring about something you call a tantrum?
Wouldnt be better for you to tent to your hobbies?
 

silkysmooth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,774
There's no cooling off period.

An example I can think of because it has happened in multiple threads is Dragon Quest XI S. PS4/PC users want a chance to get the new things in their game. It seems to happen in every thread about the Switch release. It is quite tame in comparison to some of the things I've seen in EGS threads, but it is just one game. There is a cooling off period.

Epic seems to be acquiring exclusivity on games once a week at this point. There is no cooling off. There is no time to just forget about it. It is ongoing always. That I think adds a lot to the issue as well. As time goes on, it just gets worse. People get fed up more easily and lose their cool. A lot of times it is the same arguments and same people talking each other in circles. It's really easy to get frustrated.

Don't think there is any easy solution. It can be difficult to determine if someone is genuinely unaware of how deep the issue is or just coming in to drive by shitpost/troll whereas it is always easy to tell when someone is being insulting or threatening or worse.
 

Scotia

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,239
UK
Shitposts aside, some real talk for a second.

The toxicity has fuck all to do with the EGS. Or console wars. Or Pokemon. and thus i find the threadtopic to be almost a bit misleading.
It's all about this community.
Other forums. discords and my own twitter "bubble" manage just fine to talk about any of these things, with disagreements and opposing opinions and all that jizz just fine.
It's the population of this forum that is completely drowned in negativity, confrontational attitudes, condescening, smug posts and gotcha-garbage, you can see it in every thread.
People aren't interested in conversations, they are interested in "owning" and attempting to be "better than those awful [nondescript group of people].".

And i too, must admit that it has been getting to me and made me more toxic as a result, engaging in similar patterns.
Which is one of the reasons i have been using this forum a lot less in recent times and consider not to use it at all anymore.

There is no solution to this and nothing no moderation could fix.
Unless people on this forum grow as human beings, it's gonna stay like that.

Heck, you can see people ITT literally agreeing with the OP by.... posting more toxic responses.
Great post that sums up my feelings well.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,147
The main reason anyone comes to this place is to read info and watch/read reactions to discussion threads. No one reads the first post to any thread then dips out. But I got banned for saying I was doing it? Ok.
Not gonna get into it since I don’t want to get banned again.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
599
California
You are free to correct my inevitable mistakes for not being that well versed in the subject and leave it there, there really is no need to get so worked up. It is in my personal opinion that the market share of Steam is unhealthy and to me it might as well be called a monopoly, but as you said I did point out it might not be.

I’m sorry but the Linux part is so out of there to me so I’m not sure what to respond, but I do know I said clearly that Valve hasn’t done anything really to make consumers unhappy, so I think that’s another example to add to it.

Thanks for replying, I’m happy to continue talking if we do it calmly.
But you see, I've been having this argument for 6 months or so that gets reset every time somebody likes you comes in and asks to be explained everything. Imagine you and a friend are watching a movie and you are constantly asking who this person is and who that person is and what happened there when I was looking at my phone? You're going to drive that person nuts. You can't ask people to explain things to you because you have to realize you're not the first. Hell, you're probably not the 100th person to need to be informed. People better than I am have tried their best to keep informing everybody that asks but page after page, thread after thread is just too much.

Edit: As an addendum regarding Linux, I think if you asked anybody who plays games and wanted to use Linux as their OS of choice (but couldn't) will tell you that there has never been another company that has done more for Linux gaming than Valve by a large degree. Like, going from stone age to flying space ships degree of change. Valve finally gave me the ability to choose what operating system I use. The 500 game library I have now 99% plays just as well on my OS of choice as it did on Windows 10.
 
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Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,868
The main reason anyone comes to this place is to read info and watch/read reactions to discussion threads. No one reads the first post to any thread then dips out. But I got banned for saying I was doing it? Ok.
Not gonna get into it since I don’t want to get banned again.
Of course. It’s needlessly antagonistic and even if you’re here for that reason, it’s not necessary to broadcast it to everyone else when folks are already heated. Common decency, but it’s a corny post in general, imo. That you think it’s an issue with moderation and not you is something else.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,147
Of course. It’s needlessly antagonistic and even if you’re here for that reason, it’s not necessary to broadcast it to everyone else when folks are already heated. Common decency, but it’s a corny post in general, imo. That you think it’s an issue with moderation and not you is something else.
It was a corny post but it wasn’t worthy of a ban since that’s all anyone was doing in that thread was venting their anger or reading about everyone venting their anger (And honestly this place is full of corny posts and drunk threads but those aren’t worthy of bans to me either). If it was such a volatile topic, then it should have just been locked, but locking volatile discussion threads doesn’t do any favors for a discussion forum.
And then of course after I and a few others got banned, staff posts go up. :/ 🤷‍♂️
 

Chauzu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,388
But you see, I've been having this argument for 6 months or so that gets reset every time somebody likes you comes in and asks to be explained everything. Imagine you and a friend are watching a movie and you are constantly asking who this person is and who that person is and what happened there when I was looking at my phone? You're going to drive that person nuts. You can't ask people to explain things to you because you have to realize you're not the first. Hell, you're probably not the 100th person to need to be informed. People better than I am have tried their best to keep informing everybody that asks but page after page, thread after thread is just too much.
I didn’t ask for you to explain though, I gave my personal views on this. I’m not really looking to be convinced otherwise, just interested in what others think about my own opinion. I also feel my post is majorly a big praise for Valve and criticism for Epic, I just personally think in the long term Epic will be good if we can have two companies of somewhat equal standings in the PC space competing against each other.
 

Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,868
It was a corny post but it wasn’t worthy of a ban since that’s all anyone was doing in that thread was venting their anger or reading about everyone venting their anger (And honestly this place is full of corny posts and drunk threads but those aren’t worthy of bans to me either). If it was such a volatile topic, then it should have just been locked, but locking volatile discussion threads doesn’t do any favors for a discussion forum.
And then of course after I and a few others got banned, staff posts go up. :/ 🤷‍♂️
I mean, clearly it was worthy of a ban because you got banned clowning around. Not much else to talk about really. It’s not really an example of moderation being volatile though. It’s not specific to EGS either. Those obnoxious “here for the salt” posts have been getting moderated for ages too.
 

SeanBoocock

Software Engineer at EA
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
161
Austin, Texas
Shitposts aside, some real talk for a second.

The toxicity has fuck all to do with the EGS. Or console wars. Or Pokemon. and thus i find the threadtopic to be almost a bit misleading.
It's all about this community.
Other forums. discords and my own twitter "bubble" manage just fine to talk about any of these things, with disagreements and opposing opinions and all that jizz just fine.
It's the population of this forum that is completely drowned in negativity, confrontational attitudes, condescening, smug posts and gotcha-garbage, you can see it in every thread.
People aren't interested in conversations, they are interested in "owning" and attempting to be "better than those awful [nondescript group of people].".

And i too, must admit that it has been getting to me and made me more toxic as a result, engaging in similar patterns.
Which is one of the reasons i have been using this forum a lot less in recent times and consider not to use it at all anymore.

There is no solution to this and nothing no moderation could fix.
Unless people on this forum grow as human beings, it's gonna stay like that.

Heck, you can see people ITT literally agreeing with the OP by.... posting more toxic responses.
Yeah, this. The problem is systemic and tends to feed on itself. As the tenor of “conversations” - there doesn’t tend to be much in the way of real dialogue happening- degrades, the only people continuing to participate are the most toxic, bad faith actors.

I don’t know why EGS has become such a flashpoint here but it feels like a huge missed opportunity for this community to engage with the realities of the business of games. As a developer who has worked in both independent studios and for large publishers, I’d love to share that perspective and give people insight into why a studio might sign an EGS deal.

But when the status quo here is unchecked hostility, ad hominem attacks and bad faith arguments? I already have enough stress helping build games for what I hope will be a more receptive audience than what I find here.

I hope people take a step back and appreciate that at it’s core this is an industry of (fallible) people trying to make entertainment. It is hard to sustain yourself financially, creatively or emotionally, even without the sort of attacks highlighted in this thread. I think we all can be better at engaging these topics.
 

Chauzu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,388
Yeah, this. The problem is systemic and tends to feed on itself. As the tenor of “conversations” - there doesn’t tend to be much in the way of real dialogue happening- degrades, the only people continuing to participate are the most toxic, bad faith actors.

I don’t know why EGS has become such a flashpoint here but it feels like a huge missed opportunity for this community to engage with the realities of the business of games. As a developer who has worked in both independent studios and for large publishers, I’d love to share that perspective and give people insight into why a studio might sign an EGS deal.

But when the status quo here is unchecked hostility, ad hominem attacks and bad faith arguments? I already have enough stress helping build games for what I hope will be a more receptive audience than what I find here.

I hope people take a step back and appreciate that at it’s core this is an industry of (fallible) people trying to make entertainment. It is hard to sustain yourself financially, creatively or emotionally, even without the sort of attacks highlighted in this thread. I think we all can be better at engaging these topics.
It’d be super interesting to hear more of you perspective and it makes me sad you feel you can’t do it without facing backlash.
 

Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,868
Clearly. Because mods can’t ever be human beings and gamers who succumb to volatility issues concerning EGS either.
You getting banned for making a poor post isn’t related to EGS specifically. Those types of posts always get moderated in any topic and I know because I’ve always reported them.

And for anyone wondering, it was a “here for the meltdowns” type post that has always been moderated well before EGS topics.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
599
California
I didn’t ask for you to explain though, I gave my personal views on this. I’m not really looking to be convinced otherwise, just interested in what others think about my own opinion. I also feel my post is majorly a big praise for Valve and criticism for Epic, I just personally think in the long term Epic will be good if we can have two companies of somewhat equal standings in the PC space competing against each other.
Maybe you're not asking for an explanation, but presenting misinformation as fact should be met with correction right? I would feel guilty if I let everyone go around spreading misinformation (and lies) in a place where I can at least attempt to correct them. Are we just suppose to give up and let everyone say whatever they want truth be damned?
 

Lothars

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,768
People talk past eachother so much. I think when Schreier or anyone else says some version of "it's just a launcher" they're not saying you're obligated to use it. They don't care if you use it or not. They're just asking for a sense of perspective and proportionality when we consider people are using this topic as a reason to harrass, insult, and belittle, and even threaten eachother.

When a game takes a publishing deal with EGS your two choices are be mildly inconvenienced by installing a different launcher with less features, or pass on that game initially. You may not ultimately love either of those options, but those are your options, and all things considered it's not worth calling devs "trash" over. It's not worth editing images of discord messages to make devs look bad. It's not worth threatening and harrassing. It's also not a sign that PC gaming is dying. Did you know that there didn't used to be any launchers at all? So you didn't just have less features than steam, you had no features. You had c:\starcontrol2\melee.exe. That's what you had. Gaming is in the best place it's ever been -- we're in a golden age of gaming, with more choice and value than ever before, and even if somehow EGS took every game from steam and steam died and we entered this post-steam hellscape that some people seem to be fearing things would still be better than they were in the past.

So no one is saying you have to use a launcher or are obligated to use a launcher. You can buy or not buy any product you want for any reason and I won't care one way or another. My reason for being flustered with all of this is because it's such a shitty reason to become toxic.
I don't want to see a world where egs is
If the argument is against fragmentation and against having to use stores with a less desirable feature set, then there really is no distinction between 1st and 3rd party games. Your willingness to excuse those titles is kinda arbitrary, especially for the developers like Activision/Ubisoft/EA that used to put their games on Steam and have now yanked them. Whether they are 1st party or 3rd party the net effect is the same for the consumer -- they end up using a client they don't want to play the games they do want. People want to argue on principle, but at the same time they carve out nonsensical exceptions to the rules where suddenly the principle doesn't matter because "Oh if you made or paid for the game then you can do whatever you want."

I don't know why people say something like "Blizzard made Diablo and is within their rights to distribute it how they see fit". TakeTwo/Gearbox made Borderlands 3 - why can't the distribute it how they see fit? If they made some janky-ass no-frills launcher and forced you to download it why would that be any better than having it on EGS?

The only reason that EA/Ubi/Activision abandoned Steam was because they wanted a bigger cut of sales and thought Valve's cut was eating into their profit too much. They had the infrastructure, talent, technology, and money to build a completely separate platform. But what about the hundreds of developers who don't have the money & talent to develop their own distribution platform? Why should they be obligated to use Steam? If somebody with a huge userbase is offering a much more attractive deal, why shouldn't they take it?
They can take it all they want but they are not entitled to customers and there is no promise that the huge Fortnite crowd will ever buy anything else on the epic store. You might not see a difference between first party and third party but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
171
I can understand why someone doesn't care about the EGS. Not all of us have the same priorities. What I don't get is why people have to so slavishly defend Epic to the point of acting like they quite literally can not understand people's problems and can only reiterate straw-man arguments about it being solely about "clicking another launcher."

Like, I am not trying to convince people to stop using Epic. I just want them to quit misrepresenting the arguments.

Just say you don't care, that is fine. Don't act like there aren't legitimate reasons to not want to use it.
 

Eorl

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,026
Australia
I agree, and will take steps to stop the Trump comparisons despite my personal beliefs because in reality my actual argument is more to do with the EGS being an actual monopoly masquerading as this saviour of PC gaming. In truth it is not that but instead a capitalistic driven system that's aim is to please those sharing in profit not those using the system for products or services.

There isn't any need for name calling, shaming, hating or belittling when the facts are clearly there on the negative aspects EGS shares and embodies. Ignorance to those facts is annoying yes, but all I need to do is just calmly and politely outline them in discussing EGS. Much like my previous posts outlining how the store has chosen to regionally price games to me in Australian prices but then also charging me in USD which invokes a currency conversion rate thus lifting the price up by about 10-15% on top of the inflated price.

My views are currently negative, but they are very much open to discussion and improvement. Settling in on damaging language is not helpful, and not respectful.
 
OP
OP
BronsonLee

BronsonLee

it me
Member
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
Without getting too meta, I'll point out that it's extremely rare for a modding decision to be made solo. It's a group effort and is decided as such.

This makes speedy responses difficult, but also means a mod can't just go rogue and murderize everything.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,198
Just wanted to point out that Epic isn't really an outsider when it comes to PC gaming. They've been making PC games since before Valve was even around, they have one of the most popular PC game engines, Unreal, which has been around for about 2 decades now, and Fortnite is a cultural phenomena and one of the most popular PC games around. Whether or not you like their company or their actions, when you already have one of the #1 games and the game engine that powers a large portion of the industry, opening your own storefront is a natural move to try to keep expanding. And if all the other storefronts have taught anything, it's that the only way you can make headway against the entrenched industry leader is by providing huge incentives for both publishers (exclusivity deals, revshare) and gamers (free games).
I don't think they've proved that they're making things better yet, we've just seen that they're open to use their wallet. But what happens if/when Fortnite isn't printing money anymore? Or if Valve makes a counter move? Or if streaming truly becomes the future? I don't see EGS as a longterm thing, I just see it as an obstacle that makes me have to wait longer for games. And they aren't on the same league as EA or Ubi as a publisher so you can't really compare them to what EA/Ubi does when they sell their 1st party games. Epic certainly have a popular game engine though but when they start buying exclusivities for third party games that has already been up for preorder elsewhere it obviously gets people pissed.
 

Ramjag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,868
Good to know! 👍 Thanks for contributing to, in my opinion, over reactionary EGS anger.
One of my last posts in an egs thread is me telling a guy good on him for finding a way to come to peace with the egs store even though I don’t support it. Your last contribution was “lol, here for the meltdowns <popcorn.gif>’’ and blaming mods for being volatile because you got banned for it. You’re in no position to pass judgement on misplaced anger. Even your responses with the emojis seem trolly as hell. I wish more of you exhibited some self-awareness. Also, saying everyone else does it is a poor rebuttal. Last thing I’ll say to you on the matter though because we’re getting off track.
 
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Chauzu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,388
Maybe you're not asking for an explanation, but presenting misinformation as fact should be met with correction right? I would feel guilty if I let everyone go around spreading misinformation (and lies) in a place where I can at least attempt to correct them. Are we just suppose to give up and let everyone say whatever they want truth be damned?
I’m not sure what this misinformation is. You were unhappy with the phrasing of monopoly while it was pretty clear the main point of my post was the unquestionably big market share of Steam, regardless of it being enough to be considered a monopoly or not. To me that wasn’t a big part of my personal thinking. If there is anything else feel free to correct, but this is the 3rd post where you go on about me needing to be corrected and to me it’s hard to understand.
 

JetmanJay

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,147
Mods are definitely human but how is it that your not causing volatility? You certainly don't seem to think its possible you were wrong?
Oh of course I could have been wrong and could have added more to the conversation, but there are TONS of useless and sedentary posts all through hundreds and thousands of threads in this place. None of them caught bans as quick as that one. Well, that or the occasional Trump voter stirring stuff up in Off Topic.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,935
Athens, Greece
Yeah, this. The problem is systemic and tends to feed on itself. As the tenor of “conversations” - there doesn’t tend to be much in the way of real dialogue happening- degrades, the only people continuing to participate are the most toxic, bad faith actors.

I don’t know why EGS has become such a flashpoint here but it feels like a huge missed opportunity for this community to engage with the realities of the business of games. As a developer who has worked in both independent studios and for large publishers, I’d love to share that perspective and give people insight into why a studio might sign an EGS deal.

But when the status quo here is unchecked hostility, ad hominem attacks and bad faith arguments? I already have enough stress helping build games for what I hope will be a more receptive audience than what I find here.

I hope people take a step back and appreciate that at it’s core this is an industry of (fallible) people trying to make entertainment. It is hard to sustain yourself financially, creatively or emotionally, even without the sort of attacks highlighted in this thread. I think we all can be better at engaging these topics.
Yeah but its not like this all the time. You will find countless posts praising developers and their works, you must have seen the discussions here fans have about their favorite games. There is good will and good feelings that happen when people are happy with what the devs did.

But video game enthusiasts are not one sided entities. Like you and me they are consumers and they have the right to form and experess opinions about the things they care about.

So, when they see a big industry name acting like a bully, buying off games to put in his unfinished game store, enabling devs to break promises to their communities and behaving like an a-hole whenever possible, then you can surely expect people are not going to be happy. They are going to be vocal and quite a few times the worst of us will go to extremes.

Because there's another thing that surfaced during this commotion, the realization that many devs have absolutely no desire to spent some time to understand their audience. When devs come out and say "it is just another launcher" all they say is "Shut up and buy".

Devs are always asking for their audience to understand them and supportthem but they make absolutely no effort doing the same with their audience. And as long as this continues we will have to endure the unfortunate results of toxicity.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,167
Oh of course I could have been wrong and could have added more to the conversation, but there are TONS of useless and sedentary posts all through hundreds and thousands of threads in this place. None of them caught bans as quick as that one. Well, that or the occasional Trump voter stirring stuff up in Off Topic.
Do you think not liking EGS is sedentary and useless?
 

Jarhab

Alt account
Banned
Jul 26, 2019
189
Rise of the Tomb Raider wasn't an Xbox One exclusive either. It also got released on Xbox 360 and PC.....but that did not abate a constant and unrelenting cry about how unfair it was for Square-Enix to ignore the PS4 as a platform. Microsoft clearly paid to keep Tomb Raider off of Playstations, just as Sony clearly paid to keep No Man's Sky and Street Fighter V off of Xbox.

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think there's some kind of "ambiguity" about the exclusivity of Final Fantasy 7 Remake. There's really no reason for Square to ignore both PC and Xbox for what is easily their biggest game in a decade. The only explanation for why they can't launch on other platforms is because they were paid to keep it Playstation-exclusive. This isn't some indie-developer that maybe can't afford to make simultaneous ports of a game for multiple consoles.
RoTR didn't launch on PC. It was delayed like the PS4 version, though I think the delay was 3 months instead of a year. The game did eventually come to PS4 a year later. But yes, RoTR did piss a lot of people off because all of the previous games launched simultaneously (or close enough) on multiple platforms.

As for FF7R, I'm sure Sony did pay for exclusivity. It's just not as controversial as RoTR because FF7 was a PS exclusive. If you played FF7, there's a 99% chance you played it on a PSX.

There's also the fact that PS4 is the most popular platform right now. As such, the outrage over timed exclusives is more pronounced if the PS4 gets shafted. Regardless of who gets shafted, timed exclusives are a shitty practice that should not be supported on any platform.
 

Chauzu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,388
That's - unfortunately - not how discussions work.
Maybe it’s my non native english. I merely meant I have my own views on this and I’m happy to hear the other side but it’s not like I have a random stance on the subject. I’m still an avid gamer that follows news and current events and in my personal experience, it’s rare for me to make big changes in my own personal opinions.

I don’t think that’s controversial? I don’t think many who discuss EGS has had big change of heart unless they were truly completely uninformed and out of the loop.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,779
Yeah, this. The problem is systemic and tends to feed on itself. As the tenor of “conversations” - there doesn’t tend to be much in the way of real dialogue happening- degrades, the only people continuing to participate are the most toxic, bad faith actors.

I don’t know why EGS has become such a flashpoint here but it feels like a huge missed opportunity for this community to engage with the realities of the business of games. As a developer who has worked in both independent studios and for large publishers, I’d love to share that perspective and give people insight into why a studio might sign an EGS deal.

But when the status quo here is unchecked hostility, ad hominem attacks and bad faith arguments? I already have enough stress helping build games for what I hope will be a more receptive audience than what I find here.

I hope people take a step back and appreciate that at it’s core this is an industry of (fallible) people trying to make entertainment. It is hard to sustain yourself financially, creatively or emotionally, even without the sort of attacks highlighted in this thread. I think we all can be better at engaging these topics.
This is what I've been trying to say for a while. People immediately jump to the assumption that everyone who disagrees with them is acting in bad faith, and as a result every discussion either scares off people who have reasonable viewpoints on either side of the fence or just ATTRACTS the actual kind of bad-faith actors that everyone is afraid of, leading to this infinite feedback loop of negativity that makes things worse and worse and worse and STOKES the negative emotions of the people engaging in the debate.

As long as both sides find themselves incapable of understanding the realities of the other side, and acknowledging that sometimes developers have to make tough decisions that might alienate some fans in order to keep the lights on, the argument is a tornado spinning and spinning and spinning and creating nothing but destruction.

Like, this isn't politics. People aren't being killed or racially profiled on one side while the other side is against that stuff - at the end of the day it's just video games, and as long as people are treating the situation like the old Picard FOR OR AGAINST gif from the GAF days, the discourse is never going to improve because the people engaging in it don't want it to improve. They just want to be right.
 

olag

Member
Oct 28, 2017
592
It’d be super interesting to hear more of you perspective and it makes me sad you feel you can’t do it without facing backlash.
Why would you be? By your previous comment it sounds like your more interested in info which already supports your narrow view.
I didn’t ask for you to explain though, I gave my personal views on this. I’m not really looking to be convinced otherwise, just interested in what others think about my own opinion. I also feel my post is majorly a big praise for Valve and criticism for Epic, I just personally think in the long term Epic will be good if we can have two companies of somewhat equal standings in the PC space competing against each other.
What would be the point in sharing any information with you in good faith?