We need to talk about the online radicalization of young men

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

With the attack in Toronto yesterday I thought I'd repost my thread about the "online radicalization of young men" from the old place as I find it highly relevant especially wrt the online history of the attacker and who he was inspired by (from what we know so far).

* FYI I changed the title from the original thread because I want more people to actually read the OP and the linked articles instead of focusing on the one signifier and going on unneeded "whataboutism" detours.

Original post from Januray 30/2017 follows below:

So there was some talk in the thread about the Quebec mosque shooting about how and why it happened. It's obvious Elliot Rodger, Dylan Roof and all of the others didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Around Trump's surprise win of the election I remember reading a few good think-pieces about how and why more and more white men seem to be joining or aligning themselves with hate-groups based around white male superiority. So I thought I'd post a few here to get a conversation started:

From The Guardian:

That loose network of blogs, forums, subreddits and alternative media publications colloquially known as the "manosphere". An online subculture centred around hatred, anger and resentment of feminism specifically, and women more broadly. It's grimly fascinating and now troubling relevant.

In modern parlance, this is part of the phenomenon known as the "alt-right". More sympathetic commentators portray it as a backlash to PC culture and critics call it out as neofascism. Over the past year, it has been strange to see the disturbing internet subculture I've followed for so long enter the mainstream.

These people are now part of the political landscape.

On their forums I've read long, furious manifestos claiming that women are all sluts who "ride the cock carousel" and sleep with a series of "alpha males" until they reach the end of their sexual prime, at which point they seek out a "beta cuck" to settle down with for financial security. I've lurked silently on blogs dedicated to "pick-up artistry" as men argue that uppity, opinionated, feminist women (women like myself) need to be put in their place through "corrective rape".

One thing I noticed early on is that the community seems to be largely white. And thats evident because race comes up, a lot. Sometimes, in the form of a kind of racial pseudo-science that advocates use to explain the dynamics of heterosexual relations. The age-old racist argument that black men are taking our women is made regularly. Racist slurs are chucked around casually. There seems to be a significant overlap with organised white supremacy.

When we fret about young people leaving western countries and going to fight with Isis, it's common to focus on the role of the internet in their political radicalisation. It's time we discussed the radicalisation of angry, young white men in a similar way. The manosphere gave us Elliot Rodger. He was a regular on the forum PUAhate populated by bitter men who had tried the techniques advocated by so-called "pick-up artists" to attract women and failed.

Reading through the posting history of individual aliases, it's possible to chart their progress from vague dissatisfaction, and desire for social status and sexual success, to full-blown adherence to a cohesive ideology of white supremacy and misogyny. Neofascists treat these websites as recruitment grounds. They find angry, frustrated young men and groom them in their own image. Yet there's no Prevent equivalent to try to stamp this out.

SPLC:

Inside a student center ballroom, Spencer addressed some 400 students who had turned out for the event, some in support and some in protest. After a meandering introduction about elective identities and rooted identities an idea written extensively about by the philosophers of Nazi Germany Spencer quickly moved on to the crux of his speech: how white peoples history of racist domination justifies his white nationalism.

"America, at the end of the day, belongs to white men," Spencer said. "Our bones are in the ground. We own it. At the end of the day America can't exist without us. We defined it. This country does belong to White people, culturally, politically, socially, everything."

When a student pointed out that the wealth of America was bound up in the forced labor and oppression of slaves, whose bones are also buried here, Spencer lamely countered that the actual labor force was irrelevant. Somehow, those directing the slave labor that built our country's modern infrastructure deserved the credit.

"The architect is what matters, it's the genius behind something, its not just whoever happened to do the labor," Spencer said.

"People I don't really have respect for, to be honest, are the kind of gutter punks that spend their life protesting other people," Spencer said. "That their life is so empty, so meaningless, that they have to fill up that void with hatred of people that actually care about their identity. And I'm referring to people like you!"

During the question-and-answer session, several students defended Spencer's First Amendment rights, saying they had listened to the entirety of the speech without interrupting, despite disagreeing with his politics. One young woman asked how white people could be considered the best when they have been overtaken economically by Asian and Latino populations. Spencer responded by repeatedly saying, "We are not literally being replaced by them," before conceding that white people are failing to prove themselves supreme.

"This is not a wonderful state for the white race at the moment," Spencer said.

When the student asked for clarification, Spencer merely insisted that it was a "non-sequitor" and refused to answer further.

The Independent:

"I couldn't understand why people were surprised by the outcome," Ms Mohutsiwa told the Huffington Post. "It seemed inconceivable to people that young, college-educated men could be motivated to vote for Trump."

Ms Mohutsiwa, who has followed so-called "alt-right" groups on Reddit over the years, says that many participants in these groups were instructed to keep their Trump support private.

"Many young men are told to keep their anti-[people of colour], sexist views from their "libtard" family and friends," she tweeted, "Hence this surprise from the mainstream."

"When we talk about the online radicalisation, we always talk about Muslims. But the radicalisation of white men online is at astronomical levels."

Indeed, a recent study conducted by researchers at George Washington University's Programme on Extremism, found that the number of self-identified white nationalists and Nazi-sympathisers on Twitter multiplied at astronomical rate – and more than 600 per cent than Isis sympathisers.

While the social media platform focused its energy to crackdown on Islamist extremism, white supremacists have managed to maintain a strong foothold within the platform.

Donald Trump emerged as a prominent subject among white nationalists not just on Twitter, but also within online message board communities like Reddit and 4Chan. The subbreddit The_Donald includes commentary that boasts anti-Semitism and overt racism.

"Hitler was a socialist who railed against the 1 per cent and the banks," one user wrote, for example. "The banks just happened to be owned by Jews at the time. It is insane that we have to get into power to correct the history books on something like that."

Ms Mohutsiwa added that her researched showed that many of the men in these forums entered looking for tips on how to meet women.

"Young men came to these online groups for tips on picking up girls and came out believe that it was up to them to save Western civilisation," she wrote. "By the end, many were using every out of college-level "logic" to argue that liberals aimed for the destruction of [it].

"These college-educated young men were then ripe enough to be sold [the] idea that Trump represented a return to Men Being Real Men."

Esquire collected the full twitter thread by Mohutsiwa here. Also Vox had a really good deep dive into the Alt-Right and how it intersects with GamerGaters, PUA culture and white supremacy that I would highly recommend everyone check out. I've posted a few excerpts below:

"They weren't fighting for the right to look at boobs in videogames any more, but fighting against "white genocide." Suddenly the weirdly inflated, often melodramatic rhetoric of Gamergate made more sense."

Gamergate-inspired violence also presaged the wave of hate crimes that have been reported since the election. Examples from the past two years include the threat of a mass shooting at a major public university because the university hosted Gamergate enemy Anita Sarkeesian; the many pro-rape statements made on PUA hubs and social media accounts by prominent pickup artists like the notorious internet troll Roosh V, who bragged about committing rape; and finally, the 2014 mass stabbing and shooting of six UC Santa Barbara students by Elliot Rodger, a man who fortified his misogyny and sense of alienation via the incel communities he frequented online.

The ease with which the alt-right channels male insecurity around women's rights into an ideology of white supremacy ultimately illustrates that the paths by which men wander into the alt-right movement are deceptive. While many of the movement's male-centered online communities may seem to offer something of value to the men who join them, the alt-right movement has never been about helping men cope with low self-esteem, relationship problems, or their personal pain and insecurity. In fact, it's never particularly concerned itself with building up men as individuals at all. Instead, it's about maintaining a sense of power at all costs over an ever-expanding list of designated targets.

capitalCORN · Apr 24, 2018

I could say a million things about this, but I'll start with this:
Some people believe in the perfect life so much, that when their 'opportunity' doesn't come they think they've been wronged.

808s & Villainy · Apr 24, 2018

As long as we add the caveat "white men", because it is largely them this pertains to

hydrophilic attack · Apr 24, 2018

gamergate was the warning sign

Deleted member 14377 · Apr 24, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
As long as we add the caveat "white men", because it is largely them this pertains to

Angry white kids is definitely what this is. If it's not about women being sub human it's about other races taking our jobs and our women or some shit.

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
As long as we add the caveat "white men", because it is largely them this pertains to

That was the original thread title but I changed it because I want more people to actually read the OP and the linked articles instead of focusing on the one signifier.

TerminusFox · Apr 24, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
gamergate was the warning sign

In hindsight, GG was likely one of the most influential and important moments of the last decade and it might be years if not decades before we truly know about its ramifications

lunarworks · Apr 24, 2018

These are the people who scream "free speech" the loudest, right?

SoundLad · Apr 24, 2018

Nice Guys™

These guys are not successful in their romantic pursuits often turn out to become bitter and start hating everything around them, not being able to take responsibility and see that it's themselves that they need to work on and become better people.

Then they find other like-minded individuals in the arse holes of the Internet and guess what happens.

Mesoian · Apr 24, 2018

ShadowFox said:
In hindsight, GG was likely one of the most influential and important moments of the last decade and it might be years if not decades before we truly know about its ramifications

Yup. And it only gets more important the more we learn about it's driving factors.

AndrewDean84 · Apr 24, 2018

capitalCORN said:
I could say a million things about this, but I'll start with this:
Some people believe in the perfect life so much, that when their 'opportunity' doesn't come they think they've been wronged.

Lots of people think they're entitled to opportunity, or that they deserve a chance. Those people are simple minded.

8byte · Apr 24, 2018

Anonymity is a big factor here, because that's how it starts. Simply shit posting for "the lulz" and then it evolves overtime as young minds get engrossed in shit culture. It also probably stands to reason that a lot of these white males struggle with their identity and feel like they're being "attacked" and that fighting against those "forces" will enable them to live wonderful lives.

The internet was a mistake.

Mesoian · Apr 24, 2018

AndrewDean84 said:
Lots of people think they're entitled to opportunity, or that they deserve a chance. Those people are simple minded.

Pop culture did a lot to place this idea in our minds that "we" should have everything. It's not suprising that now, 20 or 30 years later, if you don't have those things, it's considered a failure on your part when it's just....living life.

Deleted member 30544 · Apr 24, 2018

Loneliness is one hell of.....radicalization factor of angry white man.

erlim · Apr 24, 2018

I'm not stoked that these angry trolls are going to be our bosses and politicians of the future.

AndrewDean84 · Apr 24, 2018

Mesoian said:
Pop culture did a lot to place this idea in our minds that "we" should have everything. It's not suprising that now, 20 or 30 years later, if you don't have those things, it's considered a failure on your part when it's just....living life.

That's when parents could teach their children how the world really works. Should, deserve and entitled are words that people need to get out of their heads.

Menx64 · Apr 24, 2018

Parenting has a lot to do with this. This kids grew reading and playing the cool kid on online forums, while most of their parents are unaware of how the Internet really works. Most of the children nowdays grow with 4chan and reddit as their role models and then we get the people who claim white supremacy and Nazi are just an opinion.
The left vs right debate is getting out of control in most places, not only the US.

Owarifin · Apr 24, 2018

What scares me is what will happen in China and India with 70 million more men than women.

That's gonna be a lot of lonely angry men.
It's sad too.

TSM · Apr 24, 2018

This seems like part of the end game of the "fuck everyone that I don't agree with" culture the internet seems to create. People find an ideology that attracts them and then go hard at everything and everyone that falls outside of it. The internet's proclivity for trolling only raises the bar.

Lkr · Apr 24, 2018

AndrewDean84 said:
Lots of people think they're entitled to opportunity, or that they deserve a chance. Those people are simple minded.

It's this combined with lack of opportunities that make radicalization easy. If you feel your life is hopeless and you have nothing to lose, then you're a prime target for radicalization.
You go to college
You are tens of thousands of dollars in debt
You're told your degree is useless and you have to get a job that you barely survive on
Constant articles about how no one has any money saved
You have mental health problems but can't afford health care

I think the health care part plays the biggest role. People need counselors or therapists but can't afford to go or refuse to go due to mental health stigma. Then the only support outlet left is the internet. When you feel your life is shit and you find others that feel the same way, the easiest thing to do is blame others. Throw in the bigoted mindsets and people can't comprehend why women and minorities have the jobs that are "rightfully theirs". Then they go and vote for politicians that don't have any intention of improving their life by expanding health care access or improving wages for the working class.

Flo_Evans · Apr 24, 2018

It actually sounds pretty similar to how ISIS recruits young men with little opportunity for a "normal" life. Take people with little to no chance at romantic or financial success and twist them into murdering psychopaths.

Veggen · Apr 24, 2018

The book "Kill All Normies" talks about the growth of this culture and neomasculinity. It gave lonely people a collective identity and a common enemy.

Deleted member 19066 · Apr 24, 2018

Flo_Evans said:
It actually sounds pretty similar to how ISIS recruits young men with little opportunity for a "normal" life. Take people with little to no chance at romantic or financial success and twist them into murdering psychopaths.

Same shit, different continent.

Red · Apr 24, 2018

Splc recently did a feature on this:
https://www.splcenter.org/20180419/mcinnes-molyneux-and-4chan-investigating-pathways-alt-right

Sam Harris complained on Twitter that he was included on the list of influencers toward the far right... even though this list is based on the accounts of those who have been radicalized, and is not speculation.

JK-Money · Apr 24, 2018

Flo_Evans said:
It actually sounds pretty similar to how ISIS recruits young men with little opportunity for a "normal" life. Take people with little to no chance at romantic or financial success and twist them into murdering psychopaths.

BuddyDharma said:
Same shit, different continent.

So, should this be considered Terrorism and or a terrorist organisation with the intent to harm the public?

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

Flo_Evans said:
It actually sounds pretty similar to how ISIS recruits young men with little opportunity for a "normal" life. Take people with little to no chance at romantic or financial success and twist them into murdering psychopaths.

It is. They actually go over it in the OP. Basically all these men grow up thinking they're owed by society. That women are working against them. That others (be it of a different race/religion/nationality) are taking away their chance at success. That society is making fun of them for not reaching a certain bar of masculinity.

Islamic extremism. Trumpism. Gamergate. They all come from the same place.

Deleted member 17643 · Apr 24, 2018

This is going to sound incredibly dismissive but I often wonder if legalized prostitution would help with this growing unease.

Cranster · Apr 24, 2018

They should shutdown 4chan and other chan sites as they spread alot of this kind of shit.

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
This is going to sound incredibly dismissive but i often wonder if legalized prostitution would help with this growing unease.

It's. Not. Just. About. Sex.

Deleted member 17643 · Apr 24, 2018

UnpopularBlargh said:
It's. Not. Just. About. Sex.

Yeah but it is a pretty major part of it. There are a ton of other factors but I think sexual frustration is near the top.

Deleted member 19066 · Apr 24, 2018

JK-Money said:
So, should this be considered Terrorism and or a terrorist organisation with the intent to harm the public?

Dunno. I'll leave that up to the FBI or SPLC.

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
Yeah but it is a pretty major part of it. There are a ton of other factors but I think sexual frustration is near the top.

No. Sex won't change they way they look at world. It won't change their opinions of women as a whole.

You'd be literally throwing women into the hands of men who think they're less than human.

Xiaomi · Apr 24, 2018

It's interesting; I recently read about Wilhelm Reich's Mass Psychology of Fascism, in which he argues that sexual repression and frustration in young men is what leads to the acceptance of fascism. The amount of anxiety being caused by their sexual desires and the fact that they were not allowed or capable of living out a healthy sex life (due to their own failings, of course; these men aren't owed sex) has driven them towards fascism. And it's ironic that the sexual liberation they fight against as fascists is the very cure for their fascism in the first place.

Deleted member 4367 · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
This is going to sound incredibly dismissive but I often wonder if legalized prostitution would help with this growing unease.

I don't see how prostitution is any different than porn in this context. It wouldn't solve any of the problems driving these people to extremism.

Hiphopopotamus · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
This is going to sound incredibly dismissive but I often wonder if legalized prostitution would help with this growing unease.

It's counter-productive since it reinforces the toxic belief that women are there to satiate male wants/ needs. Who would want to subject sex workers to these chuds, anyways?

Commedieu · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
This is going to sound incredibly dismissive but I often wonder if legalized prostitution would help with this growing unease.

Many booming industries have died. The future isn't the guaranteed check that it has been for white privilege for generations. Half of the nation is at poverty line, or below. That is a lot of white people which this country has pretty much said "Don't worry, you've got that american dream to look forward to!" The main issue I see, is that minorities and people used to being on the shit end of things, have had that as their privilege... Parents broke? Thats life. Do what you can.These people don't know how to deal with this shit at all, they've been sold an identity that they can't cash in on. Sure, sex is one thing. But its a part of that entire package of being successful.

Sinneslöschen · Apr 24, 2018

UnpopularBlargh said:
No. Sex won't change they way they look at world. It won't change their opinions of women as a whole.

You'd be literally throwing women into the hands of men who think they're less than human.

Maybe they won't go on a killing spree though? I think that was his point. They will still be shitty people.

Sibersk Esto · Apr 24, 2018

Before the growth of large, interconnected networks these attitudes created serial killers. Peer groups have given rise to the modern domestic terrorist.

capitalCORN · Apr 24, 2018

Xiaomi said:
It's interesting; I recently read about Wilhelm Reich's Mass Psychology of Fascism, in which he argues that sexual repression and frustration in young men is what leads to the acceptance of fascism. The amount of anxiety being caused by their sexual desires and the fact that they were not allowed or capable of living out a healthy sex life (due to their own failings, of course; these men aren't owed sex) has driven them towards fascism. And it's ironic that the sexual liberation they fight against as fascists is the very cure for their fascism in the first place.

And here lies the problem. The freedom to access becomes anathema to their rejection. And they would rather take away other's right to choose, than accept learning and growth. To them, the only agency that matters is theirs, and others are only capable of service, or insult.

Jmdajr · Apr 24, 2018

Dr_Boris_Goltz said:
Yeah but it is a pretty major part of it. There are a ton of other factors but I think sexual frustration is near the top.

Sex alone can't bring happiness either. These folk just have no real connection to people. True happiness escapes them.

And it's not that we can't have some pleasures in life because we do need them. Obviously.But for many it's in an obsessive unheathly way.

We would joke about "Forever Alone Gaf," but a joke it is not. It's detrimental. Thank goodness I am not in that boat.

UnpopularBlargh · Apr 24, 2018

Sinneslöschen said:
Maybe they won't go on a killing spree though? I think that was his point. They will still be shitty people.

No. Then they'll be wondering why they can't have normal relationships like other people. And just like now, they'll blame everyone else.

The problem isn't just sex. It's a sense of connection. Of being a working part of a larger whole. That's why people join ISIS. That's why people vote for Trump. It gives them a group to join with a simple answer for their problems: It's not you. It's everyone else.

boontobias · Apr 24, 2018

redpill->incel->gamergate->altright

Its a pipeline

Hiphopopotamus · Apr 24, 2018

Sinneslöschen said:
Maybe they won't go on a killing spree though? I think that was his point. They will still be shitty people.

It's not the sex though, when they don't get the fawning housewife they think they're owed, their rage and hatred will not be assuaged.

Look at a killer like Ted Bundy, he got plenty of action, but his urges weren't about sex, they were based in dominance and hatred of women

Flo_Evans · Apr 24, 2018

UnpopularBlargh said:
It is. They actually go over it in the OP. Basically all these men grow up thinking they're owed by society. That women are working against them. That others (be it of a different race/religion/nationality) are taking away their chance at success. That society is making fun of them for not reaching a certain bar of masculinity.

Islamic extremism. Trumpism. Gamergate. They all come from the same place.

I just wonder what's different. There hasn't been a huge demographic change, economy is kind of meh for workers right now but no where near war torn Iraq. Are these people really unable to find a parter and a job or are they thinking they should be dating supermodels and driving Lambos straight out of high school?

I do feel like depression and desperation is at an all time high among white dudes though. Older retirees are turning to pills and young dudes hatred and violence.

Deleted member 4034 · Apr 24, 2018

UnpopularBlargh said:
That was the original thread title but I changed it because I want more people to actually read the OP and the linked articles instead of focusing on the one signifier.

Good call. While true, it would've set off a bunch of people right out of the gate.

Cocaloch · Apr 24, 2018

The problem with popular discourse about this is that people only talk about how to treat the symptoms and not the disease. If you want a real solution you can't just pretend like people are black boxes, there must be a social solution to a social problem.

Jmdajr · Apr 24, 2018

Flo_Evans said:
I just wonder what's different. There hasn't been a huge demographic change, economy is kind of meh for workers right now but no where near war torn Iraq. Are these people really unable to find a parter and a job or are they thinking they should be dating supermodels and driving Lambos straight out of high school?

I do feel like depression and desperation is at an all time high among white dudes though. Older retirees are turning to pills and young dudes hatred and violence.

Instant reward is at an all time high in society. Drugs, cheap junk food, the Internet (social media), entertainment (binging Netflix), pron, video games etc. And all that just becomes addiction. Potentially. There is never a moment to be bored. Constant stimulation at a moments notice.

But 1 on 1 real life human interaction is plummeting. We are connected. ..but alone.

Pooh · Apr 24, 2018

We need to have more real-life support programs for men that involve making and maintaining real-life friendships. It's a lot harder for men to do this, as studies have borne out, and the internet isn't helping. I think these guys want a sense of belonging and personal connections, I mean humans are social animals. The internet is good at giving you a fake version of this but it's still all performative.

Formless61 · Apr 24, 2018

I've seen non-white guys suffer from this downward spiral into extreme redpill thinking and it does seem like it usually stems from frustration with not knowing how to be an adult. People don't know how to improve, or they look down on others for not doing so and get angry.

FreezePeach · Apr 24, 2018

All ill say is as someone who was never good with relationships or has much experience, but never thought or used the language these guys do, that I feel that i am lumped in with them and am afraid to be honest about it now, and every thread i read and see here reinforces that. So really, if anything more of these people are being created now more than ever as the divide grows, as i can see people falling in with the wrong crowds as they get angry at the people calling them losers. A severe lacking of mental health support and funds is destroying the country slowly.

We need to talk about the online radicalization of young men

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