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We need to talk about the online radicalization of young men
- Thread starter UnpopularBlargh
- Start date
Yeah it's not like we have murderers that spew 4chan shit. None, whatsoever.
You are correct. A significant part of this is sexual frustration, low self worth, jealousy, inferiority complex, paranoia and expectations they cannot meet. My impression of these guys is that lack of pussy drove them mad, and that expectation of being unable to to get a woman is equivalent to being worthless. It sort of explains why alt-right has a lot to do with PUA. PUA has the answer to these peoples pain. Women are dogs who just like Alpha chads.
And women who say they don't are wrong. It's all a fabrication.
So these communities around them tell them a reason for their lack of success, and they can use that as an excuse to not group up, not self reflect and not become a better person, and instead take it out on everyone. POC, Women, banks, whatever. Everything else but themselves are to blame. It's not them, it's all women who are lying sluts. They are the heroes because each and everyone live their life like they are the star. And they are the oppressed one. They hate themselves, and that is what makes them dangerous.
And this is not a white-guy cultural thing either. One of the key motivators of how fundamentalist extremists recruit suicide bombers are by exploiting the sexual frustration of young men who become so irrational that they are much more likely to believe they'll go to heaven with 72 virgins after they've killed a bunch of innocent people.
Exploiting that sort of fear goes back a long way. It doesn't even have to manifest directly that way to be massively prudent.
There are some key factors why men commit more violent crime. One of the key characteristics of people who commit assault is that men are more easily able to size up another man and asses if he can beat him. That seems to be more difficult for women, and as a result there is a higher risk factor. People who commit assault are cowards. They never pick a fair fight, which is what makes them such a joke. They are essentially bullying taking to extreme physical levels of harm.
We do see in some countries with high levels of equality that crime for men goes down and as a result women goes up by comparison. In some places in Europe I believe it's about 1/5 criminals are female.
Which is increased from that it used to be 1 in 10.
But many millennial men are more docile than previous generations- Fed up obese, and high on video games, they drink less, have less sex, do less drugs and do less partying and get into less fights than previous generations.
They are less extreme, and many of them have low incomes due to increased inequality. So there is less opportunity too. But lots more distractions and entertainment. And lots of porn of every kind to keep the sexual frustration in check. To a point.
Still there is a noticeable difference. Women are much more likely to commit crimes like theft, corporate fraud, slander and lying for defamation than violent crime. Then there is the classic testosterone factor among men.
I've always said that people can't sleep on young men who become young angry men. They are the most dangerous of all of society. What started out as a cocktail of immaturity, lack of self reflection, experience and being hurt, develops them as vulnerabel and self hating, to becoming actual evil people. I don't believe there are any neo-nazis who are happy. They are all emotionally damaged. That's the recruitment factor.
Many many people live unhappy lives. Many many people do not hurt others, but some do, and this is the result. This is the fallout rate of isolated young men who couldn't find their spot in the herd. No females want to mate with their sorry asses and now they are going around the savanna killing straglers, shitting in the water supply and doing other heinous shit.
pussy make men go insane is not a figure of speech. It's a reality. Some just can't handle it. Expectations of being alpha draws them into PUA cults and alt-right groups. And then you're off the races. thousands of people who agree with everything you say. Elliott Rogers was practically worshiped as a hero on r/incel. These people have an emotional outlet of their own self hatred and they wallow in their own pain, and they begin to take it out on others. Lies they tell themselves to get out of bed. It's everyone elses fault they can't get laid.
Haven't a few would be shooters been caught because they were stupid enough to post what they were planning on 4chan?
I think the far more worrying movement is the "smart centrerist" one. The "far left and. Far right are as bad as each other" folk.
Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan, Bari Weiss, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Christina Sommers and Lindsay Shepherd. The list goes on. The few that do write, regularly quote from various websites and conservative think tanks like Cato institution or more frequently they don't cite at all. As Ben would say, facts don't care about your feelings. And as I would say, "smart centrerists" don't care about facts.
I've seen what these people turn white men into. The kind of that will complain that gay people complain to much, that inequality is because of genetics - they ignore real data and studies. But they'll cry about free speech crisis(only when it comes from the left) without providing any evidence that the free speech crisis exists as a trend. They thrive of anecdotes and specific instances of outrage, that's all they ever complain about. They can't draw any real trends to be concerned about, so they flood people with any article about someone on the left doing something bad.
There's a reason these people debate, in a debate you aren't fact checked until afterwards. And at that point, most don't care. You've won. You said the most fallacies, you had the best zingers. Who cares if you didn't cite or cherry picked a study.
Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan, Bari Weiss, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Christina Sommers and Lindsay Shepherd. The list goes on. The few that do write, regularly quote from various websites and conservative think tanks like Cato institution or more frequently they don't cite at all. As Ben would say, facts don't care about your feelings. And as I would say, "smart centrerists" don't care about facts.
I've seen what these people turn white men into. The kind of that will complain that gay people complain to much, that inequality is because of genetics - they ignore real data and studies. But they'll cry about free speech crisis(only when it comes from the left) without providing any evidence that the free speech crisis exists as a trend. They thrive of anecdotes and specific instances of outrage, that's all they ever complain about. They can't draw any real trends to be concerned about, so they flood people with any article about someone on the left doing something bad.
There's a reason these people debate, in a debate you aren't fact checked until afterwards. And at that point, most don't care. You've won. You said the most fallacies, you had the best zingers. Who cares if you didn't cite or cherry picked a study.
4chan would kek themselves to the apocalypse if they could. and there would be hilarious frog memes all the way.
I know that tone doesn't translate very well on the internet, but that's not really a reason to take everything you read so seriously ;) It's satire.
And that's where the idea that it's white men in particular is a red herring. That's largely, though not exclusively, true in American society, but any area where men perceive themselves as disadvantaged, no matter how misguided, becomes an arena of radicalization. This is terrorist recruitment 101.
Yep.
The lack of, and revulsion toward, interaction is an intense and prevalent factor. Hell, you can find it on this site when any topic devoted toward self check-outs is replete with people saying, "Good, now I can deal with less social interaction." It's a deeply disturbing trend of self-isolation. And it's getting worse. Men are falling behind in education, economics, and numerous other aspects of functioning society. It's only going to get worse, as a lot of research points to men forgoing higher education to the tune of women earning FAR more MAs and PhDs. The real risk comes economically; as women grow more educated their earnings potential grows in tune, and people, especially women, rightfully or wrongfully marry into similar socioeconomic status. As women outperform men in economic and educational standards we're going to see more men fall behind, thereby creating a vacuum in which these motherfuckers will assert any dominance they can.
God, I quote this so often, but...
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be" - Kurt Vonnegut
No matter the circumstances, roleplaying as trolls and extremists invariably leads to becoming trolls and extremists.
Sadly, many of the dads aren't any better. Toxic men raise toxic men.
Honestly, I see a very rich vein of social research for an eventual dissertation for myself built on the factors that lead to male radicalization.
The only two mass murders in Canada of the last two years were at the hands of internet-'rightist's
There was a school shooting like 3 years ago but that was in the north in a heavily gang influenced town.
There is a problem and ppl are exploiting it and making it worst.
There was a school shooting like 3 years ago but that was in the north in a heavily gang influenced town.
There is a problem and ppl are exploiting it and making it worst.
Well for one, kids aren't quite raised the same by gender. Masculinity is getting culled at earlier and earlier stages in life and thus the boys don't experience school life quite right. When the school age ends, well you can see why so many turn to being so socially awkward.
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be" - Kurt Vonnegut
Closure of Reddit and 4chan should deal with white people having a rallying point, contacting their registrar and advertisers can be an option in doing that.
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^^^^
The angry jack series I touched on before talks about this.
Bit of an overstatement, don't you think? An early(ish) example of how certain right and far-right beliefs can emerge in predominantly online communities, sure. But it's closer to the canary than it is to the actual collapse.
This might not be the most popular opinion in here but testosterone is a thing so there is some difference between men and women which isn't just genitals. Men are more aggressive than women (in general) so obviously this shows up in crime stats.
As for the topic itself, it is a very complex issue and blocking sites like 4chan isn't solving or helping anything. How can we as a society reach out to these lonely outcast young men and prevent radicalization? In my country boys and young men becoming more and more marginalized is a hot political topic right now. Will be interesting to see if anything comes of it.
Great post
4channers generally are 100% serious, then when they face even the tiniest bit of criticism immediately scream "It was a joke, a joke!"
It's a combination of wanting to be horrible to others, yet being too much of a coward to actually stand for their position once it is scrutinized. Typical 4channer mentality, really.
Most women and LGBT people wish to be only that "marginalized". The problem is not that men are marginalized, but that this group lacks even the most basic sense of empathy, and feel that any struggle they face is automatically the worst thing that has happened to anyone, and that everyone else is to blame for it.
If a woman doesn't find a boyfriend, it's her fault. If one of these men doesn't find a girlfriend, it's everyone else's fault.
This statement is highly suspect. If your proof is the book Mother Night then you are already wrong.
4chan itself proves that point is not suspect, but accurate. No need for books like "Mother Night". There is a point where """""""ironic""""""" racism, """"""ironic""""""" homophobia, """""ironic"""""" antisemitism and """""""ironic"""""""" misogyny becomes real, and that point is pretty much immediately.
Again, see Gamergate.
I actually had to look up what "incel" even meant, and now seeing what it refers to, most of the hatred the alt-white has to others makes a frightening amount of sense.
If people feel they aren't getting what they're "owed" or "deserved" they will become resentful. Should we be shocked that a culture that defines sex as a "Goal of Life" that when people don't get this golden goodie, they end up hating the original object of their affection? "MGTOW" is associated with this shit too, most likely.
This is a very tragic tale on a meta scale where what you feel you long for makes you resentful to that same very thing, and thus have to "fix" the world. The problem was always the fixation, the attachment, and the clinging. But it's much easier to turn the thing you're grabbing for into an object to toss away than to admit the problem is cultural, is egoic, is self-made.
If people feel they aren't getting what they're "owed" or "deserved" they will become resentful. Should we be shocked that a culture that defines sex as a "Goal of Life" that when people don't get this golden goodie, they end up hating the original object of their affection? "MGTOW" is associated with this shit too, most likely.
This is a very tragic tale on a meta scale where what you feel you long for makes you resentful to that same very thing, and thus have to "fix" the world. The problem was always the fixation, the attachment, and the clinging. But it's much easier to turn the thing you're grabbing for into an object to toss away than to admit the problem is cultural, is egoic, is self-made.
Toxic masculinity and lack of empathy combined with anxiety and/or white supremacy is a scary combo.
I used to laugh at incel posts because most of them seemed to be venting their frustrations in a gibberish mess, but now I can only think about what would happen if I met one in the wild. It's frightening to think about.
I used to laugh at incel posts because most of them seemed to be venting their frustrations in a gibberish mess, but now I can only think about what would happen if I met one in the wild. It's frightening to think about.
Chris Farley was by all accounts a very sweet person. So how did he not end up becoming a destructive incel?
typing with a broken arm. sorry all.
typing with a broken arm. sorry all.
This is such an insane phenomenon to me, not in the sense that it is surprising, but the fact that technology is used as a tool that allows people to create echo chambers that verifies some twisted self fulfilling prophecy. Fake news, radicalization, conspiracies...I hope over time society evolves to properly use technology in a way that helps eliminates these phenomenon.
I could not have said it better than both of you. Incels think they are entitled to everything and most importantly they feel entitled to women bodies. They expect sex as a right.
Their standard for the women they want is way out of their league, and the media has a big role in it as it often portray an average looking Joe getting a model level girlfriend. Incels want the same standard and would not care for the average women. They want the "Stacys".
Do you feel that is an empathetic statement? Having your problems taken seriously is important and it should not matter if some other group has it worse. People aknowledging that many white men have their own problems specific to them as a group that need to be adressed too would go a long way to take away the power of the alt-right.
You mean because he was overweight? Just asking what Chris Farley has to do with this.
I don't understand why all these angry ass losers who clearly aren't cut out with women just won't fuck each other. Get that stress out.
Every one be gay, problem solved.
Every one be gay, problem solved.
I spend a lot of time lurking in certain subreddits that attract the kind of people that incels, redpillers, & MGTOW seek to recruit. In a lot of ways, they're appealing worldviews. There's just enough science (often oddly interpreted, other times flat out fabricated) mixed with appeals to common experience / feelings / fears to feel correct. It neatly explains the current state of their miserable lives while simultaneously confirming their fears for the future. On top of that, as others have pointed out, it lends a sense of belonging and somewhere to direct the blame (usually women, sometimes nature itself). The more they feel like it explains their circumstance, the more likely they are to disregard a differing opinion as a lie or "blue pill" brainwashing. It doesn't help that these guys are almost never given decent dating advice (while routinely being shamed under the guise of "tough love") and if they criticize or complain about said advice / treatment, they get berated and branded as sexists / entitled / etc, which only solidifies their idea that "normies" are alien entities that don't even see them as human.
Eventually experiences like this accumulate over time, further driving them into these groups and the "us vs them" mindset, that they eventually blossom into an edgy shitheap of sexist nihilism. Don't get me wrong: advocating for rape, mass shootings, and all the other abhorrent shit they've endorsed is inexcusable. But I still can't help but feel bad for many of them. They feel unwanted and ridiculed by society. And, in their minds, these places are the only groups that are willing to accept them and give the appearance of advocating for them. Because really, who else is going to advocate for unwanted men? Besides, what can even be done? The cornerstone of misery for most of these guys is dating, which is inherently unfair. Therapy might be able to deprogram them to a degree (if they're lucky enough to have access to quality care), but it's never going to give them the life they want. The life that almost everyone around them has. Some of us are going to end up alone and discarded by the world, never having known what it was like to be close to someone or desired in the slightest. I can't blame them for being angry about that. It fucking sucks. But that anger is exactly what the manosphere pipeline was designed to cater to.
Eventually experiences like this accumulate over time, further driving them into these groups and the "us vs them" mindset, that they eventually blossom into an edgy shitheap of sexist nihilism. Don't get me wrong: advocating for rape, mass shootings, and all the other abhorrent shit they've endorsed is inexcusable. But I still can't help but feel bad for many of them. They feel unwanted and ridiculed by society. And, in their minds, these places are the only groups that are willing to accept them and give the appearance of advocating for them. Because really, who else is going to advocate for unwanted men? Besides, what can even be done? The cornerstone of misery for most of these guys is dating, which is inherently unfair. Therapy might be able to deprogram them to a degree (if they're lucky enough to have access to quality care), but it's never going to give them the life they want. The life that almost everyone around them has. Some of us are going to end up alone and discarded by the world, never having known what it was like to be close to someone or desired in the slightest. I can't blame them for being angry about that. It fucking sucks. But that anger is exactly what the manosphere pipeline was designed to cater to.
He had relationships and was a successful TV/film actor. Also his demons led him down a different road toward alcohol and drug abuse, rather than to fascism and misogyny.
Only in the US and Europe. In South Korea they are Asian, in South Africa you have Black African young men radicalizing, in India they are Indian Hindu extremists, etc. It isn't just a "Western" problem and it is arrogant of western society to think so. Nazism and fascism is rearing it's ugly head all over the world, politicians cater to it to gain power and win elections - mostly conservative and right wing parties -, only to find out they have been nurturing a beast they can no longer control when actual fascists chickens come home to roost. As a politician you can then do two things, go with it (like the GOP, Victor Orban, Narendra Modi, etc) or admit you've done a terrible thing and own up to it (sadly very few choose to do that, can't think of any on the top of my head :(, please ERA help me out here and bring some positivity to my desolate life :( ).
It's a global problem, and only focusing on the US and Europe will not solve it, in fact it might cause a few wars eventually and thus costs a lot of life. For instance, what if Pakistan and India start duking it out, in a non Nuclear Conflict for a few years?Spurred on by decades of fascist pandering to that base, the loss of life and the tragedy on those that do survive would be horrible.
Just like the fascists have gone global, so should the anti fascists. We should stop giving purity tests, we should stop acting like Antifa is "as bad as a NAZI" and start to fight back. As one side is not an honest actor, one side wishes to kill us all in favour of their "dream state of fascism and absolute power", and let me give you a hint: That is NOT the AntiFa protesters. Without them Charlottesville would have been a lot worse for the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Black Community, etc leaders that came to Charlottesville to protest. They'd be in hospitals if not dead, as the police did NOTHING to protect them.
https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2017/08/28/18802338.php
Wow just read up on what a incel is.
I don't know many extreme incels but I know people who don't know how they are in the ugly-hot scale they just assume they will get a slim girl with a pretty face even if they are not all that themselves. It's all about keeping your expectations in check depending on your own looks. I know plenty of men who are getting old and lonely as they can't find a woman, but if they simply downgraded their expectations they would have easily had someone a long time ago.
I don't know many extreme incels but I know people who don't know how they are in the ugly-hot scale they just assume they will get a slim girl with a pretty face even if they are not all that themselves. It's all about keeping your expectations in check depending on your own looks. I know plenty of men who are getting old and lonely as they can't find a woman, but if they simply downgraded their expectations they would have easily had someone a long time ago.
Point is not all marginalized are prone to fascism. it's in response to the all to frequent notion that it's the logical trajectory. why are some prone to it while others are immune? many are outcasts, but don't go down the rabbit hole. i guess for me, i get frustrated why people go this route and blame it on circumstance, because they do that when they can no longer blame anyone but themselves. it verges dangerously to coddling them. incels make as much a choice as outcasts who don't become shit people. i wish people would stop unwittingly coddling them.
i guess another part of me is trying to figure out what the common denominator is in outcasts who don't turn to fascism, even if they remain self-loathing. chris farley, to me, is someone who deserved to be loved, admired, based on his heart. in a kinder world, he would have been the self confidence of patrick swayze. there are many chris farleys and many who turn into steve millers. everyone makes a choice, so i refuse to normalize bullshit that's committed on account of self hatred.
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There is no empathy for men in all of history. Men are expandable, replacable.
They isolate. No one cares. Until they become violent. That's the cycle.
The outright dismission of some of the posters on this forum speak to this complete lack of empaty.
That's one factor.
Then there is the crisis of meaninglesness to whom people like Jordan Peterson rightfully tap into. A rapidly changing world that is losing traditional roles and tasks that have come to define men for generations. What does it mean to be a man in 2018? How do we deal with infinite distractions? How do we deal with more possibillities and choices than we ever had?
What can guide us towards a better, healthy and reinvigorated masculinity?
These are the questions we need to answer, I think.
They isolate. No one cares. Until they become violent. That's the cycle.
The outright dismission of some of the posters on this forum speak to this complete lack of empaty.
That's one factor.
Then there is the crisis of meaninglesness to whom people like Jordan Peterson rightfully tap into. A rapidly changing world that is losing traditional roles and tasks that have come to define men for generations. What does it mean to be a man in 2018? How do we deal with infinite distractions? How do we deal with more possibillities and choices than we ever had?
What can guide us towards a better, healthy and reinvigorated masculinity?
These are the questions we need to answer, I think.
The problem is that these people never would have been able to successfully fill those roles in the first place because they don't fit into the traditional version of masculinity. Instead of allowing masculinity to evolve into something that allows men to talk about their feelings, ask for help, and engage in self reflection, people like Peterson are desperately trying to keep it the same while simultaneously blaming those who want to change things for the better.
Peterson isn't improving this situation, he only contributes to it.
I dont think we need to give more empathy to men.
Men need to be taught how to be more empathetic to others. They will be less selfish and see how their emotions and actions effect others instead of how everyone can be used to better themselves.
We had an incel in the dating topic over at the other place this time last year. There was no convincing him that it was his toxic attitude that was the reason he could not get a girlfriend. The guy had already convinced himself it was impossible and had this crazy number system and what cosmetic surgery he'd need just to add 1 point to his looks. Typically he turned on a female poster calling her just average but she could get sex anytime she wanted. I reported him and he got a temp ban. He came back talking similar stuff in another topic and famously got fucking wrecked by Evilor and perma'd. He was the extreme, most are just pity party "never even kissed a girl and I'm almost 30". These type guys refuse to change thier approach and just keep complaining until they stop getting attention.
I'm sure a life of unlimited internet porn has given them a really warped view of sex as a factor too.
They don't need any empathy if they're murdering people, and masculinity is a poison that should be eliminated.
Not as much as running over a crowd of people just because women find you repulsive.
i dont understand how this is gross. Giving men more empathy reduces how toxic masculinity is and lets men help each other and lift them up as well as women.
You might already be lacking in empathy if you believe gaining more is gross.
Of course not. I don´t know why you feel that this is a fitting response to my post.
It's scary and tragic how so many men are being raised on the Jordan Petersons and Prison Pauls of the world and think they're getting a sufficient education through YouTube. I suppose I get the seductive quality of receiving answers to why one feels so socially isolated. The question at this point is how to counter the brainwashing. I wasn't familiar with this incel "culture" until seeing this NYT story.
I´m pretty sure I agree with you and missunderstood your first post. Let me try to clarify. I agree that everybody benifits from gaining more empathy. I don´t agree that men are generally lacking empathy. However, I often get the impression that society is less inclinied to be empathetic with men and issues pertaining to them. I think society as a whole would benefit from being more empathetic towards men. Leaving the debate to the mras and alt-rights seems dangerous to me.