We need to talk about the online radicalization of young men

[The Great Khali]

We had an incel in the dating topic over at the other place this time last year. There was no convincing him that it was his toxic attitude that was the reason he could not get a girlfriend. The guy had already convinced himself it was impossible and had this crazy number system and what cosmetic surgery he'd need just to add 1 point to his looks. Typically he turned on a female poster calling her just average but she could get sex anytime she wanted. I reported him and he got a temp ban. He came back talking similar stuff in another topic and famously got fucking wrecked by Evilor and perma'd. He was the extreme, most are just pity party "never even kissed a girl and I'm almost 30". These type guys refuse to change thier approach and just keep complaining until they stop getting attention.

I'm sure a life of unlimited internet porn has given them a really warped view of sex as a factor too.

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So let me get this straight the guy new he wasn't that good looking and only surgery would help. However did that guy try to get women in his own league in terms of looks.

This is the big issue here for me. Obviously it's not always about looks, but I find alot the main reasons guys are bitter when not getting women is because they have this perceived notion of men should have the women they want. Hollywood has georgous women. Homer has Marge, Peter Griffin has his wife. Fat guys with beautiful slim women. Many Hollywood movies have these guys get the girl. Anime, Hollywood, Bollywood, commercials and etc. Porn has pretty women.

If they don't get that hot woman then they consider themselves a failure.

But the reality is not everyone will get that slim girl with a pretty face. It all depends on the guys looks, if he doesn't have good looks the guys personality, social skills, career prospects etc.

There are plenty of women in the world but people need to look at themselves in the mirror and get someone who is in the same league in terms of looks.

 

[Solaris]

I dont think we need to give more empathy to men.

Men need to be taught how to be more empathetic to others. They will be less selfish and see how their emotions and actions effect others instead of how everyone can be used to better themselves.

Click to shrink...

It's hard for men to be more empathetic I feel when no one gives a fuck about men's issues.

It's difficult to even talk about issues affecting men as you have to try and dodge the "MRA" label. Men are more violent, angrier and seen as less caring, Couple this with the status and role of Men compared to Women throughout history and you have an awful lot of people who don't give a shit about men's issues and just hand wave them away. As mentioned, men are expendable in disaster and war time scenarios, men work far more dangerous jobs and have far more workplace deaths, much less time, attention and awareness is given to men in case of emotional abuse, sexual assault, etc. But good luck having a discussion about things like that.

There's no doubt toxic masculinity is a large issue, but more empathy towards men is a good thing and should be promoted.

 

[Alwayscrazybacon]

So let me get this straight the guy new he wasn't that good looking and only surgery would help. However did that guy try to get women in his own league in terms of looks.

This is the big issue here for me. Obviously it's not always about looks, but I find alot the main reasons guys are bitter when not getting women is because they have this perceived notion of men should have the women they want. Hollywood has georgous women. Homer has Marge, Peter Griffin has his wife. Fat guys with beautiful slim women. Many Hollywood movies have these guys get the girl. Anime, Hollywood, Bollywood, commercials and etc. Porn has pretty women.

If they don't get that hot woman then they consider themselves a failure.

But the reality is not everyone will get that slim girl with a pretty face. It all depends on the guys looks, if he doesn't have good looks the guys personality, social skills, career prospects etc.

There are plenty of women in the world but people need to look at themselves in the mirror and get someone who is in the same league in terms of looks.

Click to shrink...

We dont know what he looked like, only that he failed to attract a partner. I think its wrong to assume they all want a hot girl but I think a cute one is the baseline to them.

 

[Kernel]

Do people actually think 4chan posters are serious?

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This comment puzzles me.

Fantasy will become reality for these people, even if only a small percentage.

People with legit mental health problems will end up in these communities looking for support and will end up having their worst tendencies triggered, and some will act out on them. Marc Lépine did so in 1989.

Communities like 4chan let such people come together and enable/inspire their worst members to act, speeding up radicalization.

 

[Deleted member 4452]

We dont know what he looked like, only that he failed to attract a partner. I think its wrong to assume they all want a hot girl but I think a cute one is the baseline to them.

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I remember him. He kept posting a meme about an 'ugly' guy vs a 'handsome' guy with a sarcastic 'just be more confident'. The thing is that the facial structure was fairly similar for both guys, except one was unkempt while the other was well-groomed, good haircut, good clothes, makeup. The good-looking guy could have passed as the 'ugly' guy without all that.

 

[Krauser Kat]

I´m pretty sure I agree with you and missunderstood your first post. Let me try to clarify. I agree that everybody benifits from gaining more empathy. I don´t agree that men are generally lacking empathy. However, I often get the impression that society is less inclinied to be empathetic with men and issues pertaining to them. I think society as a whole would benefit from being more empathetic towards men. Leaving the debate to the mras and alt-rights seems dangerous to me.

Click to shrink...

We just had a metoo movement and its still going one and many men were opened to the idea that a whooole lot of men just dont give a shit about women and their problems how we can make the uncomfortable or worse. We also had threads on bad sex from the cat person and aziz ansari, stories of men who are not empathetic to women and trying to figure out what they are feeling. I think women are already empathetic to men and their problems. They are raised to care for men and their problems and love them. Men are not raised to care for other men or their problems or be empathetic to them or women for that matter. They are raised to compete and dominate others so they can win the hottest wife and the best job (which is why toxic masculinity is more or substitution of empathy with aggression)

I think if men were able to connect with women and peers on a more emotional level maybe some of these incels and radicalized emotionally level they wouldnt have the problems they have now, they would probable find people in their lives to love and care for and people who can do the same.

It's hard for men to be more empathetic I feel when no one gives a fuck about men's issues.

It's difficult to even talk about issues affecting men as you have to try and dodge the "MRA" label. Men are more violent, angrier and seen as less caring, Couple this with the status and role of Men compared to Women throughout history and you have an awful lot of people who don't give a shit about men's issues and just hand wave them away. As mentioned, men are expendable in disaster and war time scenarios, men work far more dangerous jobs and have far more workplace deaths, much less time, attention and awareness is given to men in case of emotional abuse, sexual assault, etc. But good luck having a discussion about things like that.

There's no doubt toxic masculinity is a large issue, but more empathy towards men is a good thing and should be promoted.

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I see this as "what about men" when women have delt with all of that and also been considered second class citizens, have always had less power, less freedom, less everything compared to men. Women have had to see their sons and husbands go off to war and die and stay at home and still keep the world moving. Men dont give a shit about men. Men have also created a world where women have to give a shit about men to survive.

More empathy works both ways.

 

[The Great Khali]

I remember the mental health thread in the old threads went their to have a look and was so shocked at so many people posting with extreme issues, saying stuff like I am ugly, why was I born, I am worthless, I find it hard to interact with people, I'm going to kill myself etc. These people with these issues in my opinion can easily be manipulated by 4chan posters. And are like ticking time bombs. I hope that alot these guys get the help they need or realise the need to appreciate what you have and you are not owed anything. It's a combination or social media, and mainstream media that has accelerated mental illness.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

In hindsight, GG was likely one of the most influential and important moments of the last decade and it might be years if not decades before we truly know about its ramifications

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Sadly true.

 

[El Mariachi]

All ill say is as someone who was never good with relationships or has much experience, but never thought or used the language these guys do, that I feel that i am lumped in with them and am afraid to be honest about it now, and every thread i read and see here reinforces that. So really, if anything more of these people are being created now more than ever as the divide grows, as i can see people falling in with the wrong crowds as they get angry at the people calling them losers. A severe lacking of mental health support and funds is destroying the country slowly.

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The "no relationship" argument by itself is stupid anyway because as always (and like you mention) it's not that fact per se but that people make you feel bad about it. The problem wouldn't be nearly as bad if people wouldn't go around saying "look at this 20+ something looser who isn't in a relationship".

IIRC Isaac Newton supposedly died as virgin and he was one of the smartest people that ever lived.

 

[Nathan_Drake]

As long as we add the caveat "white men", because it is largely them this pertains to

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While I would assume a lot of these anonymous incels on the boards are white, I don't think that caveat is accurate. There have been 3 attacks toed to this movement I can find.

Elliot Rodger whose parents were British and Malaysian.

Nikolas Cruz who was adopted and I am not sure of ethnicity.

Alek Minassian who is Canadian with Armenian ancestry.

I think this is more related to loneliness and entitlement and not ethnicity. Not saying that whites arent active in this but it can't be generalized it that way. Just my opinion.

 

[Kernel]

As much as it scares me I think I was trending that way after that high school and college.

Didn't have a single date in high school, I was bullied and awful shy back then. I was also sexually abused so the idea of a sexual relationship terrified me and gave me panic attacks so I didn't really try.

Had a couple of meaningless first dates in college. I was in computer science(almost no chance to meet any girls in such a program) and I was working my way through college which left me with little time to socialize.

By the time I met my wife I was pretty toxic and bitter. I said things which should have scared her off. Deep inside that's what I wanted as I could not handle getting hurt again. Somehow she saw through all that.

To this day I count my blessings, somedays
I think I don't deserve it.

I wonder how many of these people started out in a fucked up childhood and never had a chance to recover/get help.

It doesn't excuse their behavior one bit but I can't get shake the feeling that something awful happened to some of these people in the past and set them upon this dark path.

 

[GameShrink]

By the time I met my wife I was pretty toxic and bitter. I said things which should have scared her off. Deep inside that's what I wanted as I could not handle getting hurt again. Somehow she saw through all that.

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Out of curiosity, how did you meet her?

I'm of the opinion that these "incels" need to be encouraged to date any woman who will give them a chance. The more people they meet, the more likely they are to find someone who will tolerate their funk... and eventually pull them out of it.

 

[lunarworks]

It's hard for men to be more empathetic I feel when no one gives a fuck about men's issues.

It's difficult to even talk about issues affecting men as you have to try and dodge the "MRA" label. Men are more violent, angrier and seen as less caring, Couple this with the status and role of Men compared to Women throughout history and you have an awful lot of people who don't give a shit about men's issues and just hand wave them away. As mentioned, men are expendable in disaster and war time scenarios, men work far more dangerous jobs and have far more workplace deaths, much less time, attention and awareness is given to men in case of emotional abuse, sexual assault, etc. But good luck having a discussion about things like that.

There's no doubt toxic masculinity is a large issue, but more empathy towards men is a good thing and should be promoted.

Click to shrink...

The problem is whenever anyone tries to have an honest conversation about real issues surrounding men it inevitably swerves into "fucking feminists" as the root of all evil. Add to that the notion that even discussing real issues of emotional significance is for "pussies" and you get nowhere.

One common MRA talking point is that men have a much higher suicide rate. Well, duh. Talking about your emotions is unmanly, so you bottle it up. Going to others for help is unmanly, so you suffer in silence until you have no hope. Women will gather together and give each other direct emotional support, but men will just talk indirectly through "locker room talk" without addressing what actually needs to be talked about, because "real men" don't act like "women". Even in financial and medical crisis some men would rather die than ask for help. That's toxic masculinity.

 

[Germangerbil]

I see this as "what about men" when women have delt with all of that and also been considered second class citizens, have always had less power, less freedom, less everything compared to men. Women have had to see their sons and husbands go off to war and die and stay at home and still keep the world moving. Men dont give a shit about men. Men have also created a world where women have to give a shit about men to survive. More empathy works both ways.

Click to shrink...

I know this wasn´t directed at me but I hope you don´t mind if I weigh in on that. Of course this is all "what about men". I feel for women who have to suffer any injustice done to them but I expect the same courtesy to be extended to men. Young men today should not suffer for a history of inequality that they themselves had nothing to do with. Systemic problems that lead to shorter life expectancy of men, reluctance to visit doctors etc. should be tackled just the same as factors that inhibit women from getting ahead in the worklplace or racial discrimination. I mean everybody knows that men die earlier on average but I have never met ANYBODY who said "We have got to do something about this!". This is just one topic. I am not saying men have it worse than women, just that we have problems of our own too that need solving and attention. We can´t just suck it up.

 

[GameShrink]

Just off the top of my head...

Gender-oriented problems that women deal with:
-Men abuse and kill them all the time. (Big one.)
-Not taken seriously in male-dominated fields.
-Often unfairly evaluated on looks alone.

Solution: Men must be taught to treat women as equal human beings, to feel empathy for their plights, and to judge them primarily on their character rather than their looks.

Gender-oriented problems that men deal with:
-Traditional masculine expectations push them to be cold providers that cannot seek emotional support.
-Viewed with revulsion/suspicion in female-dominated fields.

Solution: The stigma surrounding "nurturing" men being "lesser," discrimination against men who work with young children, and male-focused "stranger danger" culture must be eradicated.

In both cases, men are largely the ones with the power to change things. However, I might concede that hawkish women play a huge role in workplace prejudice against men in childcare environments.

 

[Kernel]

Out of curiosity, how did you meet her?

I'm of the opinion that these "incels" need to be encouraged to date any woman who will give them a chance. The more people they meet, the more likely they are to find someone who will tolerate their funk... and eventually pull them out of it.

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We met on a gaming forum, we were both fans of the same games, that's how our posts caught each other's eye.

We were just online friends for years, she was actually in a relationship and got engaged in that time. It was really hard to stay calm liking someone so much but they were taken. I never made any misogynistic comments and the times I did make insensitive comments I genuinely apologized.

Turns out she liked me from the start but was in a real bad relationship and was marrying the guy out of resignation. I was living at home and making 35k in a dead end tech support job, I was about as unappealing as I could get in many ways.

Long story short, we made the long distance thing work, movied in, got married, had kids etc.

I am sure some of these people were similar to me. They were never loved by anyone, only used and abused by people closest to them, even their own family. That twists a person into a level of bitterness and toxicity that's hard to fathom unless you've been there.

 

[Horror]

Pop culture did a lot to place this idea in our minds that "we" should have everything. It's not suprising that now, 20 or 30 years later, if you don't have those things, it's considered a failure on your part when it's just....living life.

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Fight Club had it right.

 

[Oversoul]

They don't need any empathy if they're murdering people, and masculinity is a poison that should be eliminated.

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What the hell am I reading.

 

[Oversoul]

I dont think we need to give more empathy to men.

Men need to be taught how to be more empathetic to others. They will be less selfish and see how their emotions and actions effect others instead of how everyone can be used to better themselves.

Click to shrink...

I think it goes both ways.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Fight Club had it right.

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I've heard a similar thing even more relevant from Jules Pfeiffer. Something to the effect that we (boys) are taught to hate girls and everything about them, then we hit puberty and suddenly we're supposed to like them.

We really need to stop teaching little boys to hate girls and "girl" things.

 

[Nerdyone]

Maybe guys need to get over looks of their partners? I know guys who have been with their spouses for decades but get a divorce because their wife gains weight. The wreck their entire life because of it

 

[Oversoul]

I learned about Peterson from a co worker the other day. After some research I felt grave concern.

I don't think you buy into someone like that unless you are not happy with your life.

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Yes, and we need to fucking adress the root cause of that unhappiness instead of constantly attacking these people or the very concept of masculinity itself.

 

[Oversoul]

I´m pretty sure I agree with you and missunderstood your first post. Let me try to clarify. I agree that everybody benifits from gaining more empathy. I don´t agree that men are generally lacking empathy. However, I often get the impression that society is less inclinied to be empathetic with men and issues pertaining to them. I think society as a whole would benefit from being more empathetic towards men. Leaving the debate to the mras and alt-rights seems dangerous to me.

Click to shrink...

This is what I'm trying to say. Thank you.

 

[iAmPossum]

We had an incel in the dating topic over at the other place this time last year. There was no convincing him that it was his toxic attitude that was the reason he could not get a girlfriend. The guy had already convinced himself it was impossible and had this crazy number system and what cosmetic surgery he'd need just to add 1 point to his looks. Typically he turned on a female poster calling her just average but she could get sex anytime she wanted. I reported him and he got a temp ban. He came back talking similar stuff in another topic and famously got fucking wrecked by Evilor and perma'd. He was the extreme, most are just pity party "never even kissed a girl and I'm almost 30". These type guys refuse to change thier approach and just keep complaining until they stop getting attention.

I'm sure a life of unlimited internet porn has given them a really warped view of sex as a factor too.

Click to shrink...

It's an ego problem then.

 

[Oversoul]

I know this wasn´t directed at me but I hope you don´t mind if I weigh in on that. Of course this is all "what about men". I feel for women who have to suffer any injustice done to them but I expect the same courtesy to be extended to men. Young men today should not suffer for a history of inequality that they themselves had nothing to do with. Systemic problems that lead to shorter life expectancy of men, reluctance to visit doctors etc. should be tackled just the same as factors that inhibit women from getting ahead in the worklplace or racial discrimination. I mean everybody knows that men die earlier on average but I have never met ANYBODY who said "We have got to do something about this!". This is just one topic. I am not saying men have it worse than women, just that we have problems of our own too that need solving and attention. We can´t just suck it up.

Click to shrink...

Or entire Western society has been so focussed on lifting women up that the men have been mostly forgotten. Now the timebombs tick.

 

[Jmdajr]

Yes, and we need to fucking adress the root cause of that unhappiness instead of constantly attacking these people or the very concept of masculinity itself.

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For sure Men and Woman are different, duh. And obviously, Hyper Masculinity, or what I call it where I am from, "Machismo," is not good. But lots of men seem in a panic about losing their "identity."

 

[FrequentFlyer]

The solution is getting rid of toxic masculinity (though don't know how) and the stigma that still exists too often of "is 20+ and doesn't have a gf = must be closet homosexual or weirdo". Banning places like 4chan would probably be counter-productive and things would just move someplace else, possibly harder to monitor. Maybe add more surveillance to such places/take reports more serious.

 

[makonero]

Or entire Western society has been so focussed on lifting women up that the men have been mostly forgotten. Now the timebombs tick.

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LOL

we are just now getting to the point where women are being listened to about sexual assault

And most of the men called out in the #metoo movement are still wealthy and powerful so yeah, sorry, men have it pretty damn good

Western society is a patriarchy that is still man-focused and man-centric, it's just that these men feel like they're owed success just for being men

 

[Mesoian]

Or entire Western society has been so focussed on lifting women up that the men have been mostly forgotten. Now the timebombs tick.

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Fucking actually comical.

 

[Oversoul]

For sure Men and Woman are different, duh. Obviously, Hyper Masculinity or what I call it where I am from "Machismo," is not good. But lots of men seem in a panic about losing their "identity."

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I agree that machismo is mostly stupid.

But of course people are panicking about losing there identity. Anecdotal, but lot's of women too.

Society is getting more complex every day since the traditional role models broke down and we all need to find a solution to this.

Empathy is key.

 

[Oversoul]

LOL

we are just now getting to the point where women are being listened to about sexual assault

And most of the men called out in the #metoo movement are still wealthy and powerful so yeah, sorry, men have it pretty damn good

Western society is a patriarchy that is still man-focused and man-centric, it's just that these men feel like they're owed success just for being men

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There are other threads to talk about problems women still face.

The large majority of young men are not in positions of power.

 

[Alwayscrazybacon]

I remember him. He kept posting a meme about an 'ugly' guy vs a 'handsome' guy with a sarcastic 'just be more confident'. The thing is that the facial structure was fairly similar for both guys, except one was unkempt while the other was well-groomed, good haircut, good clothes, makeup. The good-looking guy could have passed as the 'ugly' guy without all that.

Click to shrink...

That's the guy LDR247.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Or entire Western society has been so focussed on lifting women up that the men have been mostly forgotten. Now the timebombs tick.

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No, it hasn't. Western society has been focused on moderately relaxing the extreme status quo.

Your post is an example of privilege being challenged. As is the incel culture. Why do they hate feminists? because feminists dare say men have advantages when the incels don't recognize those advantages due to other factors.

Also, referring to an earlier post: "toxic masculinity" is not the same thing as saying "masculinity is toxic." It's referring to specific aspects of masculinity.

 

[Bobson Dugnutt]

They don't need any empathy if they're murdering people, and masculinity is a poison that should be eliminated.

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Is it really in any way conducive to any kind of progress, to go full tilt in the other direction and post generalising shit like this?

what is 'masculinity' to you? presumably everything bad that's ever happened in the world, and none of the good?

 

[Clefargle]

So let me get this straight the guy new he wasn't that good looking and only surgery would help. However did that guy try to get women in his own league in terms of looks.

This is the big issue here for me. Obviously it's not always about looks, but I find alot the main reasons guys are bitter when not getting women is because they have this perceived notion of men should have the women they want. Hollywood has georgous women. Homer has Marge, Peter Griffin has his wife. Fat guys with beautiful slim women. Many Hollywood movies have these guys get the girl. Anime, Hollywood, Bollywood, commercials and etc. Porn has pretty women.

If they don't get that hot woman then they consider themselves a failure.

But the reality is not everyone will get that slim girl with a pretty face. It all depends on the guys looks, if he doesn't have good looks the guys personality, social skills, career prospects etc.

There are plenty of women in the world but people need to look at themselves in the mirror and get someone who is in the same league in terms of looks.

Click to shrink...

I mean, I have a very attractive girlfriend and I'm not the hottest thing in two legs. I'm not overweight anymore but she started dating me when I was. I never found it hard to be myself and find partners. This myth of "matching hotness" is such bullshit because I've seen many many unattractive people with attractive partners of both genders. It's all about perception and self perception, something these incels have zero of.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

NOT ALL MASCULINITY IS TOXIC.

I feel like the misunderstanding of that term does not help matters.

 

[Leeness]

We had an incel in the dating topic over at the other place this time last year. There was no convincing him that it was his toxic attitude that was the reason he could not get a girlfriend. The guy had already convinced himself it was impossible and had this crazy number system and what cosmetic surgery he'd need just to add 1 point to his looks. Typically he turned on a female poster calling her just average but she could get sex anytime she wanted. I reported him and he got a temp ban. He came back talking similar stuff in another topic and famously got fucking wrecked by Evilor and perma'd. He was the extreme, most are just pity party "never even kissed a girl and I'm almost 30". These type guys refuse to change thier approach and just keep complaining until they stop getting attention.

I'm sure a life of unlimited internet porn has given them a really warped view of sex as a factor too.

Click to shrink...

Was that me? Lol. I don't even remember, but I feel like that was probably me haha.

On topic, this whole trend is worrying and I really don't know how we as a society combat it. Mental health? Flagging them all for terrorism? Completely dismantling the patriarchy and starting over? :/

 

[Oversoul]

No, it hasn't. Western society has been focused on moderately relaxing the extreme status quo.

Your post is an example of privilege being challenged. As is the incel culture. Why do they hate feminists? because feminists dare say men have advantages when the incels don't recognize those advantages due to other factors.

Also, referring to an earlier post: "toxic masculinity" is not the same thing as saying "masculinity is toxic." It's referring to specific aspects of masculinity.

Click to shrink...

The post I quoted just said "maculinity". I agree that certain elements can be toxic.

What privillege is being challenged here by the way? We are talking about lonely young men here, not some fat suit running around in Hollywood.

I don't even know why you bring up the incels.

 

[Beje]

What the hell am I reading.

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Masculinity as in the toxic lifestyle imposed on men by other men and enforced by... who? That's right: men, whose only focus is not engaging in anything that can be considered even tangentially "feminine" out of fear of being labelled a homosexual. This shit has to stop. And you know who's responsible? Come on, you have the answer to that.

 

[The Great Khali]

I mean, I have a very attractive girlfriend and I'm not the hottest thing in two legs. I'm not overweight anymore but she started dating me when I was. I never found it hard to be myself and find partners. This myth of "matching hotness" is such bullshit because I've seen many many unattractive people with attractive partners of both genders. It's all about perception and self perception, something these incels have zero of.

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I agree it's not just about how good looking you are. For example I managed to find someone way above my league.

But sometimes in life you have to face reality and settle for someone in your league in terms of looks, financial stability, education, career prospects and etc. Not everyone gets a fairytale ending where they meet woman of their dreams. Alot of incels I bet expect women way above their league and if they don't get that they feel they have failed which makes them bitter. You are a awkwardly unsociable guy, you are overweight etc. Just maybe that dream girl you want you can't get but no one is stopping them from getting a awkwardly unsociable woman who is overweight but they don't want them.

 

[Jmdajr]

I agree that machismo is mostly stupid.

But of course people are panicking about losing there identity. Anecdotal, but lot's of women too.

Society is getting more complex every day since the traditional role models broke down and we all need to find a solution to this.

Empathy is key.

Click to shrink...

I look at my parents in their 70s. Each has a very specific skill set. Without each other they are fucking lost.

But I see my wife and I, and we both can do a lot of the same things. Not exactly the same but neither of us would be completely helpless without the other. I can cook and do laundry, she knows how to mow and change a tire. Etc.

Granted you will always get by better being a team. A good team obviously. Some folks make an awful tag team.

I am not sure how I would handle life if I was still single with no kids. I was definitely part of "Forever Alone," for some time. It ain't healthy.

 

[Germangerbil]

because feminists dare say men have advantages when the incels don't recognize those advantages due to other factors.

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Would you agree that men also have disadvantages, though? This is what´s missing from the discourse to me. I´m not denying the many advantages I´m granted in society but to me this should not result in disadvantages due to gender being ignored or accepted.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The post I quoted just said "maculinity". I agree that certain elements can be toxic.

What privillege is being challenged here by the way? We are talking about lonely young men here, not some fat suit running around in Hollywood.

I don't even know why you bring up the incels.

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First line was meant for everyone, not just you (hence I repeated it later in a separate post).

Male privilege. You don't have to be rich to benefit from being male. And when people (or as you put it, "entire Western society" tries to address it, some among the privileged class will start playing victim. You make it sound like these "ticking time bombs" are the fault of society looking to improve the plight of women. That's an amazing contortion.

I brought up inels as an example of the above attitude taken to extremes.

 

[Ogodei]

Before the growth of large, interconnected networks these attitudes created serial killers. Peer groups have given rise to the modern domestic terrorist.

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Yup, the serial killer has been replaced by the mass shooter for people of a similar psychological profile. Part of this is practicality: it is *hard* to do what serial killers did even 20 years ago and get away with it more than once (to go from murderer to serial killer). Cell phones and the increasing prevalence of security cameras make it hard for even the marginalized people that serial killers targeted to vanish without a trace. Combine that with the increasing availability of assault rifles and the absolute refusal to do anything to address that availability and there's your recipe for disaster (it's also why these people don't choose bombs. Bomb-making materials are actually regulated, and like the recent Austin package bomber, he got caught by a security camera).

 

[Mesoian]

Was that me? Lol. I don't even remember, but I feel like that was probably me haha.

On topic, this whole trend is worrying and I really don't know how we as a society combat it. Mental health? Flagging them all for terrorism? Completely dismantling the patriarchy and starting over? :/

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How about holding up basic concepts of empathy as a virtue instead of a flaw?

It's really interesting talking to people about the new GOW, where Kratos still sort of smolders in that generic white rage mode but knows he has to keep it bottled up in order to not seem like an insane rage monster to his young impressionable son, all the while teaching his young impressionable son to disassociate from everyone around him due to an internalized secret shame of what he, and thusly what he himself, is. And it never sort of course corrects for that; the only reason why Atreus doesn't follow Kratos to the letter on that, like he does with everything else whether it makes sense or not, is because you need to interact with the dwarves.

In a game about fatherhood and knowing that the man playing the role of a father is, pretty much a giant shitbag, the most interesting thing about it is that he understands that both he and Atreus need to be better than he was/is, but neither have any idea how to do that, so they sort of just resign themselves to living alone in the woods, isolating themselves from everyone around them.

Which is an attitude I see with frustrated male youth all the time, especially the space of gaming and the internet.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Would you agree that men also have disadvantages, though? This is what´s missing from the discourse to me. I´m not denying the many advantages I´m granted in society but to me this should not result in disadvantages due to gender being ignored or accepted.

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Sure, but not the way it's usually brought up. And on the whole, far less than women face.

Look, I am not a masculine guy and I've caught crap for it my whole life. But I am well-adjusted and don't point any of that back on women, which is what happens in these online enclaves.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

LOL

we are just now getting to the point where women are being listened to about sexual assault

And most of the men called out in the #metoo movement are still wealthy and powerful so yeah, sorry, men have it pretty damn good

Western society is a patriarchy that is still man-focused and man-centric, it's just that these men feel like they're owed success just for being men

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It's not a zero sum choice. Men will always lose when this is turned into a "more victimized than thou" fight where this situation needs answers and action, so please don't.

Shit, I wouldnt doubt that #metoo and tackling this incel and incel-related male issues are joined at the hip and can't work without each other.

 

[Oversoul]

First line was meant for everyone, not just you (hence I repeated it later in a separate post).

Male privilege. You don't have to be rich to benefit from being male. And when people (or as you put it, "entire Western society" tries to address it, some among the privileged class will start playing victim. You make it sound like these "ticking time bombs" are the fault of society looking to improve the plight of women. That's an amazing contortion.

I brought up inels as an example of the above attitude taken to extremes.

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They are not the fault of improving the situation for women. That situation was in dire need of improving.

However, we ARE at fault for not recognizing, nor caring, about the men who are now being left behind (education wise, socially, support wise). These are the men people like Peterson appeal too and he has become somewhat of a phenomenon.

You see the attitude on this very forum. "Who cares about these losers, they have all the privilleges in the world".

It's an attitude as toxic as the most toxic aspects of masculinity itself these same posters rally against and it's helping no one.

 

[Chief Malik]

As long as we add the caveat "white men", because it is largely them this pertains to

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[Oversoul]

How about holding up basic concepts of empathy as a virtue instead of a flaw?

It's really interesting talking to people about the new GOW, where Kratos still sort of smolders in that generic white rage mode but knows he has to keep it bottled up in order to not seem like an insane rage monster to his young impressionable son, all the while teaching his young impressionable son to disassociate from everyone around him due to an internalized secret shame of what he, and thusly what he himself, is. And it never sort of course corrects for that; the only reason why Atreus doesn't follow Kratos to the letter on that, like he does with everything else whether it makes sense or not, is because you need to interact with the dwarves.

In a game about fatherhood and knowing that the man playing the role of a father is, pretty much a giant shitbag, the most interesting thing about it is that he understands that both he and Atreus need to be better than he was/is, but neither have any idea how to do that, so they sort of just resign themselves to living alone in the woods, isolating themselves from everyone around them.

Which is an attitude I see with frustrated male youth all the time, especially the space of gaming and the internet.

Click to shrink...

That's actually a surprisingly good take.