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We need to talk about the online radicalization of young men
- Thread starter UnpopularBlargh
- Start date
All of this is a product of modern society and the digital age. Isolation breeds bad thoughts and feeling in your head. Isolation won't help you get a job, get a girl or improve your living standard.
It's easy to become isolated these days
Movies,games,books, entertainment is easily accessed. Food can be delivered to you. You keep doing this and you will end up alone eventually with no social skills towards the opposite sex, towards an interviewer etc.
Schools need to start having mandatory social skills courses from k through 12.
It's easy to become isolated these days
Movies,games,books, entertainment is easily accessed. Food can be delivered to you. You keep doing this and you will end up alone eventually with no social skills towards the opposite sex, towards an interviewer etc.
Schools need to start having mandatory social skills courses from k through 12.
Argument is simply the delivery of the value. You were the one that suggested that the greater induction of women resulted in a financial detriment for men. But that argument just hinged on college participation, and gender statistics are redundant to the result. So why make the point for the gender divide? I replied saying the redundancy of the statistic, so you insisted that there was a design. So I replied simply that there's no reason to simply assume that it really needs to be anything more than what it is. Misogynists proclaim the state of the world is perpetual and insist on natural order. I don't believe in normal. I'm just saying random is a thing.
Absolutely possible. Still there are basically no programs to get more men into university or something like that and there is no public outcry whatsoever.
The reason "nobody does something about it" is a)that you're going by very outdated data, and that b)what matters in life isn't a school grade. Don't worry, these same men do their very best to ensure women don't get ahead in university, especially in techy subjects, pushing women either into quitting, switching classes, or becoming jaded (not to mention sexually harassing one in five women at that age), which in turn leads to the same men claiming that women are mean to them. I've been at a German university in a tech subject, I know very well how this works and what usually happens.
We would have a problem if women were
- earning more than men
- promoted more than men
- more successful in jobs than men
- getting away with sexually harassing men
- promoting other women over men
There is, and it's well known in the German discourse.
Women are:
- Pushed to be more quiet
- Pushed to listen more
- Pushed to study more
- Told that studying is boring/for nerds
- seeing in movies that the bookish boy isn't worth it
- that being loud and obnoxious in class is being celebrated
- that being attentive in class makes you a "Streber"
After all, the same things that gave women better grades also leads to men being noticed more, get promoted more, and promote other men more.
The only thing we really should do here is stop that "boring/for nerds/Streber" thing we push at boys in media. That's the main problem I see here, as there is nothing wrong with being a bookish guy, nor with a guy that learns, and the whole stereotype there is dumb and damaging.
Why should there be one just because there is one situation where men are not the absolute best at everything, and instead "only" end on top in every metric that actually affects their lives O.o
There will be. This is an issue with a trailing effect. The effect isn't being felt as much yet.
When men generally control government and business, wouldn't you expect the men to actually address the issue? MRAs poison the water by bringing things like this up and then blame feminism/focus on women as if addressing problems in society can only be done one at a time.
What's your solution? Who can you support that's advocating for change that isn't trying to tear down women with the other hand?
Just to reiterate my point since I think we are not talking about the same thing.
I pointed to education as an area where boys/men are "left behind" (I don´t like that expression) and provided official figures to illustrate that point. Someone then argued that educational success is irrelevant since men still earn more during their life time. I criticised that argument as I don´t think it is ok for boys/men to have fewer possibilities in education just because the average male supposedly still earns more during their life time. I am not arguing that greater induction of women results in a financial detriment for men. I argue that a society should strive to have equal participation of the genders throughout the educational system. Also I do not argue that there is a design behind the lower success of boys/men in education. I argue that there must be systematic or societal reasons for this difference. I am not saying it is intended for boys/men to have less success in school.
I am blessed with having two girls. I am sure I will have headaches later, but there is much more open mindedness of them doing "boy stuff."
I don't know if I have the testosterone to raise a "manly man."
I don´t have a solution. Simply aknowledging that there are areas where men are actually disadvantaged and in need of help in the discourse on equality would go a long way towards making the discussion more healthy and public action more likely.
If the issue matters to you, you're going to have to fight the MRA types that don't really care except to attack feminists over it.
I understand that if men are not allowed the same amount of effort for progression as women have, that does denote an imbalance. Like I said, I don't believe in normal, and discrimination is something that exists. But affirmative action is also a bias, but it came to be because there was a concrete and persistent issue that unjust discrimination occurred. I can't really speak for any efficacy, but not everyone is born equal, and more important, people assign different values to different people. What I value is to understand constructive from vindictive.
I have a 24-year-old son who lives at home. He's had health-related issues his entire life, which is why he's still finishing his informatics degree. He's had short (very) term girlfriends (and none recently), but by and large he spends the majority of his time in his room gaming and hanging on Twitch. He's a level-headed, liberal kid, but this 'incel' stuff freaked me out the last couple of days, so I asked him how much he bumps up against it in his online life. He had to look up what incel even was after I asked. So there IS hope. This stuff isn't *so* pervasive that we're going to have entire armies out there, but, yeah, the lone actors are causing enough trouble on their own.
Actually had a look at reports on this, such as this one here, which my fellow German poster may have read:
https://www.bmfsfj.de/blob/94248/74...e/maedchen-und-jungen-in-deutschland-data.pdf
It's actually really relevant to the thread in some ways, more than I thought it'd be.
Paraphrased conclusion:
Guess I was on to something when I pointed out that male students are less likely to take roles that go along with "learning a lot", but when they do, they do just fine.
On top of this, the same report points out something that I alluded to in my post, but couldn't really put my finger down on. It turns out that the same schools where girls "perform better" when compared to their male peers also significantly *limit* girls, especially in scientific classes. Teachers tend to ascribe "gender-typical" attributes to students, meaning that in coed schools, boys get better grades for the same work in scientific classes than girls do. Girls consequently do much better in girl-only schools when it comes to scientific classes.
Which leads to the interesting conclusion that, despite better marks in a vacuum, for literally every relevant topic, coed schools actually disadvantage girls. Boys get worse marks, but still end up advantaged in the real world.
Getting higher marks in German and art isn't particularly helpful in the job market.
The report also lists a number of reasons why boys may perform worse, ranging from the above mentioned "gender-typical" traits ascribed to students and the overall "boy"-behavior that I mentioned in my earlier post to something VERY relevant to this topic:
Boys that perform worse are MUCH less likely to ask for help or accept the authority of teachers, ESPECIALLY female teachers. Instead, the very same masculine ideals lead them to instead isolate themselves and act out against their (female) peers.
Turns out that Germangerbil is flat out wrong on boys being "disadvantaged" by the school situation when it comes to success in life, yet he still stumbled on something pretty important by accident.
So yeah, if we need a public outcry, that'd be one that a)addresses how this is massively disadvantaging and sidelining girls, while at the same time addressing the stereotypes that work against studyious men. After all, those stereotypes sure are damaging there, in more ways than one, and absolutely unhelpful for their well being (or behavior towards women).
We sure keep coming back to those shitty stereotypes how "a man should be" hurting literally everyone :/
https://www.bmfsfj.de/blob/94248/74...e/maedchen-und-jungen-in-deutschland-data.pdf
It's actually really relevant to the thread in some ways, more than I thought it'd be.
Paraphrased conclusion:
Guess I was on to something when I pointed out that male students are less likely to take roles that go along with "learning a lot", but when they do, they do just fine.
On top of this, the same report points out something that I alluded to in my post, but couldn't really put my finger down on. It turns out that the same schools where girls "perform better" when compared to their male peers also significantly *limit* girls, especially in scientific classes. Teachers tend to ascribe "gender-typical" attributes to students, meaning that in coed schools, boys get better grades for the same work in scientific classes than girls do. Girls consequently do much better in girl-only schools when it comes to scientific classes.
Which leads to the interesting conclusion that, despite better marks in a vacuum, for literally every relevant topic, coed schools actually disadvantage girls. Boys get worse marks, but still end up advantaged in the real world.
Getting higher marks in German and art isn't particularly helpful in the job market.
The report also lists a number of reasons why boys may perform worse, ranging from the above mentioned "gender-typical" traits ascribed to students and the overall "boy"-behavior that I mentioned in my earlier post to something VERY relevant to this topic:
Boys that perform worse are MUCH less likely to ask for help or accept the authority of teachers, ESPECIALLY female teachers. Instead, the very same masculine ideals lead them to instead isolate themselves and act out against their (female) peers.
Turns out that Germangerbil is flat out wrong on boys being "disadvantaged" by the school situation when it comes to success in life, yet he still stumbled on something pretty important by accident.
So yeah, if we need a public outcry, that'd be one that a)addresses how this is massively disadvantaging and sidelining girls, while at the same time addressing the stereotypes that work against studyious men. After all, those stereotypes sure are damaging there, in more ways than one, and absolutely unhelpful for their well being (or behavior towards women).
We sure keep coming back to those shitty stereotypes how "a man should be" hurting literally everyone :/
doing that leg work.
Thanks for the additional info.
Boys thinking studios behavior as more feminine works against both women and boys who adopt those traits. If we work on creating a world where boys and girls are raised to respect all aspects of the other. It wouldn't be such a perceived insult to men to be something that is slightly more feminine.
Fair point, I'd legalize prostitution anyway for other reasons. I guess it's more the whole tone of the connection made between radicalized men and their lack of sex/intimacy/interaction with women that gives off that impression. Most of the people on this thread have nailed it though. The entitlement towards female attention/companionship/ownership(?) is THEIR claim, and people who label the alt right and disillusioned males as virgins/losers/omegamales/etc are feeding the beast I totally agree. I think we really made progress when neoliberals moved on from terms like 'fedora' and 'neckbeard' and 'basement dweller' and speak more in terms like 'white supremacist' and 'misogynist' where applicable.
PS im a virgin ex-trenchcoat-kid nerd face, wheres MY parade? thanks
I was just replying to your earlier post but scrapped my reply since I think this is more relevant now. I really don´t know why you act so condescending and agressive. You made it about success in life, I did not. My post was about an area where boys are left behind. Education is such an area. You simply declared it as irrelevant. I never suggested that school discriminates against boys, I stated boys are worse in school and that there has to be a reason for that. The report you cited states such a reason, namely their reluctance to ask for help (especially from female teachers, which by the way make up 70% of all teachers). At no point did I argue that the cause is not toxic masculinity, in fact I said that this was absolutely a possibility. Yet their is still no effort to remedy the situation. There are tons of attempts to make going into stem attractive to girls in school, there are next to none adressing the stigma of studying and excelling at school for boys.
In what way would it hurt you to just aknowledge that boys need our help in this area?
Edit:
Just to quote from the source you cited (translated from German):
"For decades it was thought that the school system was neglecting girls. Meanwhile there are more and more signs that girls profit more from the german school system than boys....."
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Obviously I can only talk about myself, but as someone who would still be a virgin if prostitutes weren't legal (but not regulated) where I live, I can attest it definitely helps. I can't just delete my sexual urges, every once in a while I visit one to blow that steam off. And the thing is, I've read a lot of /r/redpill and similar reddits (been a while, years+ that I don't tho). I browse 4chan. I am a complete loser when it comes to romance, and feel very frustrated and depressed sometimes. But I never acted on any of the redpill stuff, as when I got closer to edge I'd always choose go to a prostitute than doing any of that shit.
Now, I'm not going to say that if I didn't have that option I would have gone full in into that mentality, but it definitely helps as an outlet that ultimately does help keep me in check. If I were a 28 year old virgin instead of 21 (when I first went to an escort) I'm pretty sure at the very least I would be much more pissed off and depressed about my whole situation, instead of just mildly depressed but usually not really caring that much about the loneliness.
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Made it two minutes.
I'll assume the crux of the video is, "Girls want me to change who I am to meet them, but WHY SHOULD I CHANGE MYSELF TO STOP FROM BEING LONELY!?!"
Yeesh...
I don't get it...
Many of these guys enjoy sports, music, and media featuring POC and women, have friends and family of POC and women, and by all reasons should at least understand that they do have a slight advantage, whether socially or economically, to which they can at most use to help those who are lacking of said advantages or at least acknowledge but won't. Why is this?
Many of these guys enjoy sports, music, and media featuring POC and women, have friends and family of POC and women, and by all reasons should at least understand that they do have a slight advantage, whether socially or economically, to which they can at most use to help those who are lacking of said advantages or at least acknowledge but won't. Why is this?
Well, the key thing I saw in your post is the level-headed part.
Most level-headed people are going to sniff out the bullshit they're reading before they're too deep in it.
This thread has been mostly about the marginalized misogynist men, which makes sense coming right after Toronto. But I think the radicalizing of men along race lines is an even bigger problem. Pretty much the same phenomenon with a different target.
I don't think you will find any feminist who says patriarchy doesn't hurt men to some extent.
You should check Jackson Katz Ted talk.
He touches topics of why feminism is good for men in the long run.
I fully agree. I am just advocating for trying to do something for men in the short run too.
There's a lot of causes, and there's a huge variety of different ways in which the toxic attitudes present themselves
The lack of empowerment is a good way to put it. It can be really hard to get through to people in any ruts in their lives, and the depressed and the angry can build huge mental barriers that keep them from seeing how close they really are to establishing healthy relationships. But because they live isolated lives without positive connections, they fall for garbage negative attitudes.
It still shocks me how willing people are to just gobble up garbage arguments and labels about "genetics". Just absolutely insane. Ultimately, these people are living too-sheltered of lives to realize the countless ways in which their core beliefs just don't hold water, and then listen to shitty PUA advice that just gets even more demoralizing when "easy fixes" don't work.
Finding hobbies and interests that have something resembling a decent gender balance and require leaving the house would honestly help fix the issues for like 80% of the "incel" crowd.
Most of the people in that video need grooming advice and people that will actually hold them accountable, and then start a long, long road of normalizing their relationships and interaction with the opposite sex. Some of them are actually okay looking, like better looking than a bunch of married people that I know.
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Throwing the "opportunity" ax at the faces of straight white man doesn't solve this problem, it even accelerates it.
Yes, they have the opportunity to have a better life, but this opportunity is long gone with late20's early 30's, you are just throwing salt in the wound and drive some of the left/centrist leaning into the alt-right.
Do you think someone who works his ass off and only gets minimum wage pays attention to the pay-gap of the middle classes or Company bosses? There is no pay-gap for the poor, they all get the same shitty minimum wage per hour. We are talking about 25 to 40% of the working population depending on the individual country.
Do you think someone who is not great in social interaction, or dating, or just doesn't care about sexual relationships, is happy that he is labeled a loner/loser/weirdo, just because he has no active relationship?
Isn't it kind of comedic, that a big part of the liberal/left/feminist society, which this forum, and we as the users, are a part of, still defines the worth of a man by the ability or the desire to get into a relationship with a woman.
Shouldn't we be more empathic and open to people who think otherwise than the societal norm? I don't mean to open the door to alt-right people, rather to accept and include people who are suspectable to the honey-pot of alt-right propaganda after they got ridiculed for years.
re: Reddit and hate communities, this subreddit is useful:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/
A subreddit that identifies hate subreddits and pushes for their banning. Malecels and a nazi community have been banned since yesterday's attack. Braincels and metacanada are in their cross-hairs.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/
A subreddit that identifies hate subreddits and pushes for their banning. Malecels and a nazi community have been banned since yesterday's attack. Braincels and metacanada are in their cross-hairs.
I feel the same way about my daughter. I buy her toy trucks and no one gives a shit. I could enroll her in judo and nobody would blink. If I had a boy and he wanted a doll or to take a dance class? Endless shit from his peers and probably some parents.
Was waiting for this to show up. Everyone can see what their problems are except them and their unwillingness to self-reflect and make changes.
The darkest depths of anonymous trolling has lead to this. And a lot of said anonymous trolls have the ability to flush out the evil shit they said the next morning because of the pre tense that "trolling isn't real" and with the element of just typing out words without any face to face interaction there's little consequence to being a shithead.
The impasse is that anonymity provides a lot of good too. I have no idea how you prevent such toxic posts spewed from an editor on reddit unless they put in some kind of banned phrases/words filter or something.
That being said, from what I've read the original point of the incel group was just a place to rant about a guy's bad luck with women due to any reasons (essentially a place to vent about rejection). It's just these trolls corrupted it, and the echo chamber of pessimism reinforced it.
The impasse is that anonymity provides a lot of good too. I have no idea how you prevent such toxic posts spewed from an editor on reddit unless they put in some kind of banned phrases/words filter or something.
That being said, from what I've read the original point of the incel group was just a place to rant about a guy's bad luck with women due to any reasons (essentially a place to vent about rejection). It's just these trolls corrupted it, and the echo chamber of pessimism reinforced it.
User Banned (Permanent): Sexist and racist rhetoric, long history of similar behavior.
Did we even watch the same video? There was not a single person in it who wasn't complete 100% genetic trash (like me). Not one of them would be there if they were actually attractive to girls like this:
Their introvert life style and non-NT personalities are the RESULT of how they got treated by their peers/society because of their looks. You're blaming the symptom and completely ignoring the root cause. The only thing being confident and outgoing will do is get them beat down even further.
Okay, ladies and gentlemen, where do we start with this post? The projection? The self loathing? The warped expectations?Did we even watch the same video? There was not a single person in it who wasn't complete 100% genetic trash (like me). Not one of them would be there if they were actually attractive to girls like this:
Their introvert life style and non-NT personalities are the RESULT of how they got treated by their peers/society because of their looks. You're blaming the symptom and completely ignoring the root cause. The only thing being confident and outgoing will do is get them beat down even further.
Dude you need a rigorous regimen of self love (and probably some cognitive behavioral therapy.)
Well I would argue that feminism will help men in the short run.
False, unfortunately. There very much is a pay-gap for the poor, and it's probably even bigger than in top jobs. Women are routinely pushed to work harder and longer even (especially) in these jobs. There are many jobs in this category that men don't even take if offered, because they are seen as "below" them, such as cleaning jobs.
That public feminist discourse does not often *mention* this aspect of a poor woman's life is probably the biggest problem with feminism there is, and stems from feminists being mostly middle class and up (much like the average internet user, by the way).
Accepting people is one thing, agreeing with outright propaganda that does not fit the actual reality in the slightest is another.
The problem will never be solved if we keep telling men that they are not at fault for anything, and that they really have it worse than anyone else. The reason men in the altright do feel this much entitlement is that for all their life, they were told that they deserve to be ahead in every metric, get a girlfriend without effort, get a super job without effort, and that their struggles are the only ones that matter.
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Even the claim that "bad marks" ruin life and that it's too late in one's 20-30s to do anything about it are false. There's absolutely nothing stopping people from picking their life together at this point, other than their own attitudes towards themselves. I have many coworkers who did that, dropouts from university, troubled years in their 20s with unemployment or random jobs, then picking themselves up. This takes effort, effort they only took because they dropped the attitude that the world owed them success. This is key here. Saying that isn't ~being aggressive~, it's the simple truth.
Yes, as a Studienabbrecher, you're not gonna get 5 digits a month. But you don't need to, your life is still perfectly valid and fine if you "only" make 2-3k a month. Companies actually offer a number of qualifications for people that are in that position, from IT jobs to jobs in the translation(videogame) industry.
Why do we act as if jobs or actions like that are beneath people? Isn't that perhaps part of the problem?
I watched that video a couple of weeks ago and a couple of those guys would look great if they dressed and groomed themselves better. I've seen worse looking guys with girlfriends all of the time. It's not looks, it's attitude. These guys think arrogance is confidence. They don't want to have a loving relationship, they want a conquest.
You are not genetic trash, whatever that even means.
Your looks don't matter half as much as you think. Most of that is literally in your head, your own insecurities playing you. If you are genuinely friendly towards others for its own sake, you will do fine. Seriously. I promise.
Love yourself! Love others! Don't blame your genes (or call yourself and others "genetic trash"). The world doesn't just consist of "trash" and "superhuman beauty". Most people are way below conventional beauty norms you see in movies, and they do fine. You'll do fine, too.
I know more straight girls that don't find this attractive than straight girls that do!
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Did we even watch the same video? There was not a single person in it who wasn't complete 100% genetic trash (like me). Not one of them would be there if they were actually attractive to girls like this:
Their introvert life style and non-NT personalities are the RESULT of how they got treated by their peers/society because of their looks. You're blaming the symptom and completely ignoring the root cause. The only thing being confident and outgoing will do is get them beat down even further.
Son I have a head damn near as wide as a woman's shoe and am not a handsome stud, yet I still married a lovely lady. I'm introverted too. Did I work out a bit, figure out how to make her laugh, and learn how to listen? Of course. I have seen guys that look like they were scraped off the side of a wall have girlfriends and become happily married.
Women don't owe you shit. You are not entitled to a relationship. If you desire companionship you have to figure out what they want too.
PS: This 'I must be a dudebro' stuff is absolute bullshit. Some women are actually turned off by the super jacked and cocky jock thing. Jesus.
Edit: I came off kind of harsh but that post was so misguided that it was borderline demeaning.
Pretty much summed it up: 'modern society'
In this day and age its so easy to become isolated and men are much more sexual creatures than women in general.
Im sure plenty on here can relate to the feelings of loneliness, lack of phyiscal and sexual intimacy at a young age where the media and the world expects you to be having the best time of your life fking and loving but then reality is the complete opposite. But then again there is no real solution or help for these people... if youre lonely and cut off its hard to get out of the hole you are in. If you tell everyone about it and own your problem then people wont treat you normally and you turn away from the natural process of making organic frnds and relationships. Society also shuns the virgin or men who are bad with the opposite sex. They are labelled creeps, dorks, nerds watever (and in most cases its true) and everything just becomes this self reinforcing cycle.
And then we have this thing called... THE INTERNET where like minded people and people of similar circumstance and interest can come together to vent their frustration and eventually a toxic ideology develops that is somewhat grounded in reality but much misaligned and warped that is used to justify their sad existence and give them a sense of power and belonging.
And may i say, much of this is compounded by the way American society works...as i said im sure many of the feelings and situation shared by incels is not uncommon amongst l men but most of us remain grounded by our network of friends and family. But in America, high school is very cut throat and when high school is over. People move on because everyone goes interstate and moves away from home to go to college and for those who were already on the fringes in High School, their one or two high school friends are now no longer part of everyday life. Or if they had no friends to begin with it probably becomes even bleaker as that familiar environment of school is replaced by an adult life that is to be navigated alone.
"Must be" is obviously an exageration but you yourself mention you had to work out to get a relationship, amongst other things. In a recent study posted in this forum 100% of the participating women prefered stronger bodies. 100%! If you want to be helpful, encourage people to work out, no need to feel good lies that are simply not true for the whole group. For every woman that's legit grossed out by muscles you can be sure a lot more will pay more attention to you.
And the people talking about no trash genes (as far as artractiveness goes) obviously don't have below average skin, teeth, height, testosterone (hard to build muscle) and personality ALL at once, heh.
I don't think I included any feel good lies. My point was that it takes work, especially if you have "undesireable" genes. I didn't leave any of that out. It's simply defeatist to think that it is unachievable.
Trolls are not really the problem. Young people will always be morons, always have been, always will be.
The problem now is that people don't necessarily grow up. If you live on the internet the people who do mature go away. But unfortunately they are replaced by more anonymous idiots who are the next batch through. To the person stuck in the loop, there is little difference and they don't emerge from people who all think and say the same things.
Back in the day if you tried to be a 40 year old in a pub going up to young kids and saying "how about those teenage girls, teases right?" you'd at best get punched in the face.
We really just need the equivalent of an internet punch in the face, since that isn't readily available the owners of forums have to take responsibility and shut this shit down (looking at you reddit). If they do most of the people will migrate to another shit hole, but some of them will see the light each time and will get on with being an adult.
You don't have to get jacked, what's being implied is that you need to put some work in your appearance in order to be appealing, be it doing regular exercise, wearing clothes that fit your body type and age (instead of relying on baggy pants and oversized shirts) and getting groomed on the regular. Want some advice? If you have Netflix take a look at Queer Eye. You don't have to become a "Chad". You have to present yourself in a way that shows that you CARE.
You can fix all that. Especially the personality part which is what will drive away potential partners at the very beginning. But hey, it's always easier to blame other people for being shallow than just putting *some* work yourself.
I never blamed anyone for anything. Also you have no Idea how much I already did, If I showed you a pic from 10 years ago shit would be horrifying. I've used roacutanne for skin, I did treatments to improve scoliosis, went to several therapists, work out for more or less all that period and started TRT a couple months ago and more, but there's only so much time, money and willpower one can spend on this. As far as relationship goes I already gave up, but I don't like the implication I didn't put any work.