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oni-link

tag reference no one gets
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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm quite surprised I'm even making this thread as corporations don't generally need defending, however there is a lot to unpack here so if you're not planning on reading past this point your comment probably won't be relevant to the points I actually want to make

Firstly, and whatever your views on capitalism are, companies want to make money. That is the entire point. It's not helpful to say a company is being greedy for wanting to make money from selling MXTs or exp boosters, but it's somehow not greedy for the same company to want to make money from selling video games in the first place

Companies want to make money, and there are several ways for companies who sell video games to make money, and none of these avenues are inherently greedy

The reason I'm highlighting this is because it's normally those who are critical of the methods some publishers use to monitise their games that use the "greedy publisher" rhetoric (It's also prevalent among certain popular YouTubers)

The reason this isn't helpful is because every for profit company will want to make as much money as possible. There is not a threshold where a company makes enough money and anything on top of that is them being greedy. Money from direct game sales isn't noble, and money from MXTs isn't unjust, it's all just money

Calling publishers greedy is missing the point and derailing any legitimate concerns over how games are monitised. 12 years ago it was horse armour, today it's exp boosters, lootboxes, cosmetics and gems, and the chances are in another 12 years time even more aspects of video games will be being monitised. The extent to which a game is designed to allow post launch monitisation will be even greater than it is today as even greater profits are chased

I think the best thing we can do as consumers and fans, is to keep these conversations going when publishers do step over the line and do something shitty. No publisher or developer sets out to make a bad game or to ruin or undermine their game by adding in harmful monitisation models. That said, it's a balancing act and sometimes they do get it wrong

I think the next decade is going to be fascinating as we see people who have never known games not to monitise grow up, and the biggest publishers push the boat out even further with how extensively they can monitise their games. One day Battlefront 2 will probably look as tame as horse armor does now

If you call publishers greedy when this happens you're working to undermine your own argument by making your comments easy to dismiss

Edit:

You know what, after reading a lot of your replies I've changed my mind

My main issue was that we need better arguments to convince people change is needed or kick back against certain practices is needed

I've seen people on Era argue it's down to greed and other posters have been able to dismantle this argument so I read this to be a bad argument as per the OP

However really this is just semantics, and it can be applicable when you put things in context

Thank you to everyone who took the time to read the OP and counter it respectfully, you are what make this place such an enjoyable forum
 
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BAN PUNCHER

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Oct 26, 2017
4,945
xC2OR3z.gif
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
There is making money and then there is gaming the way your entire title is built in order to screw maximum cash from children and addicted people.

The reason tobacco, alcohol, gambling companies are all heavily regulated is because of the damage they can wreak on those susceptible to them.

Like it or not, many games are played largely by children, therefore people can rightly take issue with games designed to squeeze more money from children.
 

ResetGreyWolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,460
I agree completely but OP you're about to experience a massive backfire if the history of this forum is anything to go by.

There are certainly anti-consumer practices that are bad for us but the mentality that gaming companies are "our friends" who "betray us" when they do DLC we don't like is quite absurd
 

Sailent

Member
Mar 2, 2018
1,591
People should charge for their work.

Its such a bland statement, but as an sculptor/drawer(the kind that draws)/painter, people often expect to do shit for free as some kind of... favour?

But I think most people call companies greedy when they try to charge for effortless content. What's the debatable is: what do you consider effortless? Even that Oblivion Horse armour DLC took hours to make.
 

Cess007

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,227
B.C., Mexico
I've no problem with companies wanting to make more money. They're free to try so, as I am free to avoid their products or giving them more money.

What it annoys me is the excuses they tend to use: "choice" and "options" for the player.
 

lobdale

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,010
Yeah the shift toward game players being this universally entitled group that game makers are somehow beholden to is really unusual.

BACK IN MY DAY we just played the game if we wanted to play it and if we didn't like it we didn't play it.
 

Jeronimo

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,377
When profit is a higher priority than selling quality products, greed is the correct term. That also goes for creative ways to scam consumers who already pay for your products.

I work to make money, I'm not mad at that hustle.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,160
All I know is they're pushing me away with their greed. AAA games are getting disgusting.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
So we should give them a free hand and let them run their workers (and customers) to the ground because they just want to make money?

Come on.
 

Puffy

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
3,585
We won't stop until they give us games for free, in person and feed us grapes while we play. Anything less is anti-consumer
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,240
Greed is the reason with we have the joystick on the left and buttons on the right.
Really.
 
OP
OP
oni-link

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
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16,160
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I agree completely but OP you're about to experience a massive backfire if the history of this forum is anything to go by.

There are certainly anti-consumer practices that are bad for us but the mentality that gaming companies are "our friends" who "betray us" when they do DLC we don't like is quite absurd

I 100% agree that publishers do a lot of shitty things, FIFA is a shambles and lootboxes are as shitty as things come, but calling publishers greedy for implementing these models is reductionist and unhelpful and gets us nowhere

By all means call these things out (and I do, pretty often) but there is more nuance to these things than "publisher X is bad"

It's also as frustrating when people go to bat for a company no matter what, but that's another issue
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,551
United Kingdom
Agreed. The gaming community, Era included, sometimes seems entirely unaware about the rising costs of development, and somehow think that those increasing budgets come from nowhere. If the cost of games rose proportionally, each AAA game would cost about £300 to buy.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,388
I've no problem with companies wanting to make more money. They're free to try so, as I am free to avoid their products or giving them more money.

What it annoys me is the excuses they tend to use: "choice" and "options" for the player.

Right they free to try and make money peoepl are free to call them out of they feel like they going to far.
 

Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
The discussion of ethical game monetization becomes boring when it's the same new age YT content consumers dictating what is ''greedy'' or 'manipulative'

Yes faceless monoliths do not need to be defended by the consumer but you know there is a limit
 

VaanXSnake

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Jul 18, 2018
2,099
I have nothing against making money but anti-consumer shit is something else, I hate brand loyalist too.
 

Derrick01

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Oct 25, 2017
7,289
No, we need to call them out even harder. This place has a weird obsession with defending corporate interests, at least on gaming side.
 

kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,144
Texas
Op is right, capitalism is bad. Planned obsolescence isn't greed, it's a logical progression. Same with a lot of things in modern gaming.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Yeah I get what you mean. 'Anti-consumer' is another that has been used to similar effect here and I'm just like if we compiled together a list of all the things called as such then it'd be a long, long list- some deserved obviously but the phrase has become so overused it has become just a little eye-roll worthy a lot of the time, especially when it is used in regards to something rather benign.
 

Effnine

Member
Oct 28, 2017
556
All I know is they're pushing me away with their greed. AAA games are getting disgusting.

Yup. NBA2K is a prime example for me. Been playing the series for years, even before their Virtual Currency scheme. Ever since they introduced VC, it's been going down this road of pure greed, with forced grinding getting worse and worse. It's not about making the best game or best experience, it's about milking players out of money for no reason at all except to keep shareholders and the like happy. Sorry OP, but if you want to see what greed really is and how it affects gamers, look at 2K. I know most here don't play sports games, but it's a huge fucking issue that hardly anyone talks about.
 

Sloane Ranger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
631
New Albany
When profit is a higher priority than selling quality products, greed is the correct term. That also goes for creative ways to scam consumers who already pay for your products.

I work to make money, I'm not mad at that hustle.

Came to say this. I'll pay plenty for a high quality product. Don't try and hide a sub par experience behind cheap schemes ... thats where the "greed" term is coming into play.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
How about we continue to do that because coporations whole idea of making money these days is to not simply make money but exploit workers, exploit users and skirt their responsibilities to the absolute maximum degree they can get away with.

Very bad thread discussion OP. Excess capitalism in the modern era has gone beyond the boundaries of "good enough to survive". Don't ENABLE that.
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,257
Austin, TX
Calling publishers greedy is missing the point and derailing any legitimate concerns over how games are monitised. 12 years ago it was horse armour, today it's exp boosters, lootboxes, cosmetics and gems, and the chances are in another 12 years time even more aspects of video games will be being monitised. The extent to which a game is designed to allow post launch monitisation will be even greater than it is today as even greater profits are chased
It was bullshit 12 years ago, it's bullshit today and it'll probably be bullshit 12 years from now. That's no reason to not keep callin em out on it.
 
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Deleted member 46641

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I think Rockstar making billions of dollars from GTAV and not spending any of that on making sure there are decent working conditions with reasonable hours for Red Dead Redemption 2 is pretty greedy and disgusting.
 
OP
OP
oni-link

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,160
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Nah. Just because every company is fundamentally greedy doesn't we gotta stop calling out corporate greed.

Where do you draw the line though?

How much should a huge publisher be allowed to make before any more is greed?

My point is that is a pointless argument, when we should be talking about the methods they employ and discussing when they're unfair or exploitative
 

Bear and bird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,640
People aren't criticizing companies for wanting to make money. They're criticizing them for the ways they want to make money.

I'm personally fine with companies wanting to make money, but the industry needs more regulations and labour unions. A bunch of the companies are doing a lot of weird shit, both to their workers and the consumers.
 

Cess007

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,227
B.C., Mexico
No, we need to call them out even harder. This place has a weird obsession with defending corporate interests, at least on gaming side.

Reading the reaction to corporation greed between gaming side and Etcetera is quite weird, I will admit. More than once, I've read a thread on the other side and thought "if this was a gaming publisher, people would be here defending them".
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
14,156
a Socialist Utopia
Oh there is definitely greed at work. We now have xp and money booster micro-transactions in single-player games. We are well beyond these poor corporations just wanting to make money. We are into blatant greed territory. Same goes for loot box gambling and all that shit.

All businesses want and need to make money, this is how I'm getting paid every month, but the Ubis, EAs and Activisions of the world have gone well beyond that. They're disgusting and they're pushing me away from their bloated, greed infested games.
 

Deleted member 48436

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Oct 8, 2018
62
guess we don't need another dishonored or anything innovative anymore, let's stick our feet into our mouths and defend obviously predatory practices and the conveyor-belt approach to making games while the big bunch gets to make an obscene amount of money off it.

this is precisely why i stopped caring about most of current gen.
 

Deleted member 8593

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Oct 26, 2017
27,176
"That's just how capitalism works" has to be one of the most bitch-ass arguments this board has come up to defend every single thing their favourite companies do.
 

Noodle

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Aug 22, 2018
3,427
Yes, OP, people were calling companies greedy for wanting to earn money. You totally nailed it. I myself think anyone who engages in transactions based on physical tokens representing arbitrary units of value are touched by the devil.
 

SmarmySmurf

Banned
Nov 5, 2017
1,931
Conflating greed with every instance of wanting to make some amount of money is pretty dumb. Greed is an excess. You can be a profitable company without making perpetually increasing profits your sole motivation for being in business. Especially in the entertainment industry. If you aren't at least as motivated by entertaining people/creativity as you are making money, you shouldn't be making games (or movies, or music, etc) and you sure as fuck deserve all the criticism your customers can muster. Fuck greedy companies.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
Companies trying to make money isn't the issue. The issue is when those companies try to capitalize on certain human weaknesses in order to exploit people. We don't have to sit back as individuals and expect each person to look out for themselves - we can work as a community to improve the practices of these companies so that they make money in a fair manner.

Though an imperfect analogy, It's like cigarette companies increasing the addictive qualities qualities of their products - people did not know that until litigation and legislation forced it oro into the open. Right now, companies are fitting to not reveal loot boxes probabilities ... So, until they are up front and transparent about their actions, I don't feel they really need individual consumers defending them ...
 
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