We should give people like Milo a platform, Says Jaffe; not doing so is ruining the country. Defends himself with NPC memes.

Couscous

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,393
Tilburg
A white ethnostate would in 100% of the cases lead to violence. How is that an appropriate view to have and how can someone defend that shit? The ironic thing is that he says that these white supremacists have to be put down if they incite violence. Inciting violence is exactly what these racist supremacists are doing. Is this guy blind?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,318
"They have the right to have violent ideas and promote them as long as these violent ideas don't lead to violence".

Let me rephrase it

"They have the right to want to burn something and tell people to burn something as long as it doesn't lead them to burn something".
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,190
"They have the right to have violent ideas and promote them as long as these violent ideas don't lead to violence".

Let me rephrase it

"They have the right to want to burn something and tell people to burn something as long as it doesn't lead them to burn something".
Problem with Jaffe (Which I told him on Twitter) is that you can drive people to violence without actually calling for it. So according to him, everything is fine and dandy with someone like Milo spouting hate as long as he doesn't directly say 'go attack this group' and the only problem is with the person that takes his comments to heart and attacks someone and they should be arrested.

So according to Davids logic, Milo should still be free to continue saying his hateful rhetoric because he hasnt directly called for violence, even though his actions directly increase it happening.
 

Stuggatz

Member
Jun 6, 2018
294
A white ethnostate would in 100% of the cases lead to violence. How is that an appropriate view to have and how can someone defend that shit? The ironic thing is that he says that these white supremacists have to be put down if they incite violence. Inciting violence is exactly what these racist supremacists are doing. Is this guy blind?
It's just how racists make themselves feel good about being "peaceful racists." Even if it didn't cause violence (it does) it's still harmful and wrong.
 

jacktuar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,241
Problem with Jaffe (Which I told him on Twitter) is that you can drive people to violence without actually calling for it. So according to him, everything is fine and dandy with someone like Milo spouting hate as long as he doesn't directly say 'go attack this group' and the only problem is with the person that takes his comments to heart and attacks someone and they should be arrested.

So according to Davids logic, Milo should still be free to continue saying his hateful rhetoric because he hasnt directly called for violence, even though his actions directly increase it happening.
Legally speaking that’s correct though. The individual carrying out whatever violence or crime would still carry the vast vast majority of responsibility for what they themselves had done. It’s not the responsibility of the person who sparked the ideas that led to that crime, unless they actually incited violence or abuse. It’s still morally wrong to to take alt right viewpoints, but silencing them in a public forum even if they’re not being threatening in some way isn’t something that is okay to do because freedom of speech is valuable.

But all of that is kind of a side point, because that’s not what Jaffe is saying. He’s saying all viewpoints are worthy and equal because they promote discussion, and that is such utter tosh. At best it’s naive, but really it’s just thick.

Secondly he’d saying shutting down Milo on social media channels is limiting his freedom of speech. It’s not. Social Media channels are private and they can do whatever they want. No one has a right to a megaphone.

Also freedom of speech is not limited. It’s not just about inciting violence. It can be any kind of abuse. It doesn’t even have to be directed at an individual. Shouting “we hate gay people” in a public space is a hate crime and against the law.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,190
Legally speaking that’s correct though. The individual carrying out whatever violence or crime would still carry the vast vast majority of responsibility for what they themselves had done. It’s not the responsibility of the person who sparked the ideas that led to that crime, unless they actually incited violence or abuse. It’s still morally wrong to to take alt right viewpoints, but silencing them in a public forum even if they’re not being threatening in some way isn’t something that is okay to do because freedom of speech is valuable.
While its true that people can react to harmless things that one person said and do something harmful (think of Charles Manson believing Helta Skelta was a call for a race war), there is a difference when it comes to people like Milo.

They are actively spreading ideology and beliefs that actively target protected groups of people (and their supporters) and while they may not directly come out and say "Attack this group", they are indirectly doing so and furthering these ideas.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,382

Everybody who defended Jaffe need to come collect y'alls man because... this ain't it.
Nah fuck that if that's something you want then you don't deserve a platform to speak from and it's people like Jaffe who just sit by and say it's ok that's got the world into the state it's in.
 

i-Lo

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
11,550
Not America

Everybody who defended Jaffe need to come collect y'alls man because... this ain't it.
Yikes, what is he doing? How can a man who has lived as long as he has be so naive and ignorant of history? How can one establish a "white ethnostate" that is bereft of inherent prejudice? Or does he not care for the "End" as long as the "means" being employed is non-violent? Did these americans already forget about racial (and economic) segregation policies?

What the hell Jaffe?
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,769
The idealisation of pure concepts is honestly baffling. The idea of free speech is an aspiration with caveats. As absolute it is an abstraction with no precendene. I respect everybody's right to have an opinon, not necessarily the opinon they hold. I don't necessarily espect everyone's right to express their opinion in public space, because I don't think that is a right without caveats.
 

H.Cornerstone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,170
Man oh man. From on top of the world with God Of War to Defending Milo and Moriarty and calling out ERA. Has anyone in gaming fallen further?
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,823
Columbia, SC
How in god's name could "we need a white ethnostate" not incite violence.
Yeah, because because all the non-white people will just shrug their shoulders, pack their bags and just leave America and various other countries en-masse and go to a mythical place where theres plenty of room to house all the non-white people. And we'll all live happily ever after.

The fuck out of here with that shit.

That's straight up "kill other groups of people" talk. Its hate speech, its poisonous, and its cancerous. You fucking deal with it, not sit there and let it fester and spread. And then you salt the so-called earth so not even the little seeds can ever sprout again.

He might have the right the say it, but he doesn't have a right to a platform to say it. That's what the fuck this is about. No one has to provide him anything. If he wants to he's free to get on a milk crate in the middle of times square and scream his garbage out to the masses if he likes.
 

Slayven

I don’t know what you’re talking about
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
37,820
Somethings aren't up for debate like people's humanity.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,526
I hear you, I can see why his views are problematic, but I don't think ill of anyone unless they're directly hateful or anything like that. I know a lot of people like that guy and I know that they don't have harmful intentions towards anyone.
Homophobes and alt right people are directly harmful

Those views existing at all is harmful

Giving them a platform is spreading hate and bigotry
 

Chronospherics

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,243
Brighton
Homophobes and alt right people are directly harmful

Those views existing at all is harmful

Giving them a platform is spreading hate and bigotry
I didn't say I agreed with anyone giving them a platform.

I said I knew liberal people that used that 'freedom of speech' style argument, and that despite disagreeing, I don't hate them for it. I do not believe they are hateful, just naive.
 

nillansan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,104
Denmark
Budi. I apologise for the late reply, I didn't feel like I could spare the time and attention your post deserves. I want to thank you for taking the time to reply. To be honest I didn't expect you to elaborate on your position any further. When I usually engage with people that are strong proponents of debate and I question their approach, I end up with a non-answer. This is the first time my questions have been answered in such a genuine and introspective manner.

Yeah I can't fully put myself in the same situation, there are certain topics though where discussion/debate does hurt me to follow. But I can admit privilege here. And I wouldn't say to a minority that it's your responsibility to debate bigots or educate them.
This is not a realisation that I feel comes easily to most white people, not in my experience, so I applaud you for acknowledging the position you hold and the responsibilities tied to it. I applaud you for actively using your position to further progressive ideas.

However, when these debates take a larger stage and attract or invite a significant crowd of both participants and onlookers, I believe that we run the risk of furthering regressive ideas rather than curbing them. Just look at the increasing prevalence of far right movements. Living in Europe and witnessing the inclination to embrace far right politics is scary. It's disheartening.

I'm not afraid to bring any of these topics up that I see as important, I don't try to avoid confrontation (unless with high risk to physical safety). But I'm not also the best equipped to challenge these things, I try to educate myself too and as said do what I can based on that.
In my experience, white people challenging the status quo has sadly been a rare occurrence. Please keep calling out bigotry. It means a whole lot, hopefully you will succeed in convincing others to do the same.

People of color should challenge homophobia/transphobia and sexism at least among their own community if not otherwise.
Definitely and just for the record, this is something that I actively take part in and I feel like the responses have been very favourable so far. I strongly believe in unifying marginalised groups and attempting to curb in-fighting.

I wouldn't say to a minority that it's your responsibility to debate bigots or educate them.
As I touched upon earlier, even if members of marginalised groups don't actively participate in the debate, the potential for harm is far too great. It gives way to rhetoric that serves to dehumanise marginalised groups and helps normalise harmful stereotyping. I firmly believe that when my mere right to exist is put into question, there is nothing to debate - nothing. Regardless of the number of participants or onlookers the debate attracts. Regardless of whether the debate takes place exclusively amongst white people or not.

If it wasn't evident through my participation in this and similar threads, I am all for de-platforming the far right, suppressing regressive attitudes and curbing far right recruitment efforts. I believe providing some background as to why I've taken up this stance could be helpful, not as justification for my stance, but rather to contextualise it.

- We fled our country of origin due to a genocidal government and sought refuge in Europe. We were granted asylum after a few transfers between refugee camps.
- As a child I experienced my parents receive verbal abuse due to the colour of their skin.
- I went through primary and secondary school dealing with verbal and physical abuse due to the colour of my skin. I had to fend for myself, the staff never bothered to do anything, nothing preventative nor anything of any severe repercussions. One teacher participated in alienating me even further, openly mocking my background in front of the entire class while I was doing a presentation about the country I fled. Didn't tell my parents about any of this, I was ashamed.
- Gave a few of the racist swines a good beating when I could isolate them, go at it one-on-one. Of course I received a warning from the staff.
- My sister started at the same school, she received bouts of verbal abuse due to her skin colour, my class mates participated in the abuse as well, kids that are 5 years older than her. Imagine that. Teachers were quick to tell me not to meddle, they were very explicit about that.
- The abuse continued outside of school. Luckily, I had friends that would stand up for me.
- As a teenager I felt like I wasn't worth anything nor deserving of anything. I mostly experienced ignorance and the diet sort of racism, but the abuse I endured as a child stuck with me.
- As an adult I question my self-worth a lot, I am struggling with my self-confidence, but I try to hide that. I have a wonderful and beautiful wife and I have a wonderful and beautiful son. I am grateful for that.
- I hope that my son never has to endure a fraction of what I went through as a child. That would break my heart.
- I experienced a lot diet racism through-out my career, at my last work place there was a loud and proud bigot that I attempted to get through to, but let's just say that he was stuck in his ways and continued to spout hateful garbage. My colleagues didn't call any of this shit out and I was often painted as the aggressor (white fragility is legitimately scary), I pondered whether I should report it to HR, but due to my colleagues' clear indifference or even outright dismissive attitude, I didn't bother.
- I currently work at a wonderfully diverse and vibrant company. I feel welcome. I am grateful for that.

So while I disagree with a few of the aspects you've put forth, specifically in regards to the validity of de-platforming over debate and under what premises debate should be undertaken, I wholeheartedly appreciate your genuine will and ambition to do good. Thank you.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,456
Finland
Budi. I apologise for the late reply, I didn't feel like I could spare the time and attention your post deserves. I want to thank you for taking the time to reply. To be honest I didn't expect you to elaborate on your position any further. When I usually engage with people that are strong proponents of debate and I question their approach, I end up with a non-answer. This is the first time my questions have been answered in such a genuine and introspective manner.



This is not a realisation that I feel comes easily to most white people, not in my experience, so I applaud you for acknowledging the position you hold and the responsibilities tied to it. I applaud you for actively using your position to further progressive ideas.

However, when these debates take a larger stage and attract or invite a significant crowd of both participants and onlookers, I believe that we run the risk of furthering regressive ideas rather than curbing them. Just look at the increasing prevalence of far right movements. Living in Europe and witnessing the inclination to embrace far right politics is scary. It's disheartening.



In my experience, white people challenging the status quo has sadly been a rare occurrence. Please keep calling out bigotry. It means a whole lot, hopefully you will succeed in convincing others to do the same.



Definitely and just for the record, this is something that I actively take part in and I feel like the responses have been very favourable so far. I strongly believe in unifying marginalised groups and attempting to curb in-fighting.



As I touched upon earlier, even if members of marginalised groups don't actively participate in the debate, the potential for harm is far too great. It gives way to rhetoric that serves to dehumanise marginalised groups and helps normalise harmful stereotyping. I firmly believe that when my mere right to exist is put into question, there is nothing to debate - nothing. Regardless of the number of participants or onlookers the debate attracts. Regardless of whether the debate takes place exclusively amongst white people or not.

If it wasn't evident through my participation in this and similar threads, I am all for de-platforming the far right, suppressing regressive attitudes and curbing far right recruitment efforts. I believe providing some background as to why I've taken up this stance could be helpful, not as justification for my stance, but rather to contextualise it.

- We fled our country of origin due to a genocidal government and sought refuge in Europe. We were granted asylum after a few transfers between refugee camps.
- As a child I experienced my parents receive verbal abuse due to the colour of their skin.
- I went through primary and secondary school dealing with verbal and physical abuse due to the colour of my skin. I had to fend for myself, the staff never bothered to do anything, nothing preventative nor anything of any severe repercussions. One teacher participated in alienating me even further, openly mocking my background in front of the entire class while I was doing a presentation about the country I fled. Didn't tell my parents about any of this, I was ashamed.
- Gave a few of the racist swines a good beating when I could isolate them, go at it one-on-one. Of course I received a warning from the staff.
- My sister started at the same school, she received bouts of verbal abuse due to her skin colour, my class mates participated in the abuse as well, kids that are 5 years older than her. Imagine that. Teachers were quick to tell me not to meddle, they were very explicit about that.
- The abuse continued outside of school. Luckily, I had friends that would stand up for me.
- As a teenager I felt like I wasn't worth anything nor deserving of anything. I mostly experienced ignorance and the diet sort of racism, but the abuse I endured as a child stuck with me.
- As an adult I question my self-worth a lot, I am struggling with my self-confidence, but I try to hide that. I have a wonderful and beautiful wife and I have a wonderful and beautiful son. I am grateful for that.
- I hope that my son never has to endure a fraction of what I went through as a child. That would break my heart.
- I experienced a lot diet racism through-out my career, at my last work place there was a loud and proud bigot that I attempted to get through to, but let's just say that he was stuck in his ways and continued to spout hateful garbage. My colleagues didn't call any of this shit out and I was often painted as the aggressor (white fragility is legitimately scary), I pondered whether I should report it to HR, but due to my colleagues' clear indifference or even outright dismissive attitude, I didn't bother.
- I currently work at a wonderfully diverse and vibrant company. I feel welcome. I am grateful for that.

So while I disagree with a few of the aspects you've put forth, specifically in regards to the validity of de-platforming over debate and under what premises debate should be undertaken, I wholeheartedly appreciate your genuine will and ambition to do good. Thank you.
Thank you for the reply, I appreciate you taking the time to do it. Very sorry to hear what you and your family has went through. Even after you seeked for a safe place to live, you didn't get to feel safe. I couldn't imagine going through all that you have, our histories are so different. I'm glad to hear about your family and your place of work, you deserve it.

Also I want to clarify so there are no misunderstandings. Recently Sargon and earlier Lauren Southern getting booted of Patreon is definitely a good thing. Platforms like Patreon shouldn't help to fund their bigotry. Twitter is definitely way too lax with what they accept on their platform. But in example I'd allow these people on panels/interviews etc. of the national broadcasting company here, there they can be challenged and debated. Not that they should be given their own shows. I'm used to seeing truly unsavory people even on TV from a young age and they haven't usually came out of it looking good and doing any favors to their ideology. And we don't have a right wing channel like Fox News (luckily), most of our media is quite left wing. So these people haven't been cuddled or endorsed. Though even some of our right wing political parties have taken a hard stance against racism (with some internal conflicts). Yet there's a alot of racism among the population and they aren't hiding it. We were just few days ago celebrating our independence day, among the independence day marchers there were some people proudly carrying Nazi Swastika flags. And I'm happy to inform, even though not explicitly illegal, police intervened. I take no issue with that either. Bigots should be walking on a thin ice. Also somewhat comforting was that the counter-protest against the neo-nazis was ten times as big. One sign particularly caught my eye "Make racism wrong again".
 
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nillansan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,104
Denmark
Budi. I meant to PM you, but I guess it's fine to just post it here. Thank you for clarifying your position even further, I definitely feel like we agree on a lot more things than what I initially perceived. Your willingness to listen and learn and your capacity to empathise is something I both appreciate and admire, I genuinely believe that we could really hit it off IRL.
 
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Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,602
Private companies don't have to give people platforms, but that doesn't address issues of signal boosting in the "LOOK AT THIS FUCKING NAZI" vein, like, if a non-signal-boosted white nationalist screams about brown people in the forest, and nobody is around to make a post about it on Slate, does it really make a sound at all? Most of the time, nah. These opinions are unpopular for a reason, and if you reeeeaaaally want to deplatform hate, stop giving it the attention it needs to broadcast its message, PLEASE. Sure, hate doesn't go away if you ignore it, but it does generally remain quarantined where nobody save for the previously converted care to go looking.

Though at this point, bigotry been signal-boosted so frequently and given such constant visibility (I call it the "good people on both sides are saying" effect) that it's now a perfectly acceptable segment of the zeitgeist for so many people, so we're probably way past that now. :/
 

JohnOfMars

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,057
Mars
I like Hbomberguy's take on free speech

Q: In all seriousness I would love to hear you say you support free speech. You never have said it​
A: Boy howdy do I love free speech. I use it every day. Free speech is very good.​
I don't talk about free speech very often because I think I can support my ideas a little better than 'well technically i have a RIGHT to say this!'
If my ideas were really shitty and hard to defend I guess I'd photoshop some tape over my mouth and pretend someone was trying to silence me, that seems like the trick. I'll keep that one in my back pocket for when I become a racist​
 

GeminiX7

Member
Feb 6, 2019
494
Is this held in high esteem here?

It's really not a paradox unless you think of "tolerance" in the most childishly basic definition of the term. It's like saying we should give everyone a chance to speak to be fair, but that obviously doesn't include the person whose only wish is to scream/curse in the face of others specifically for the sake of making sure other people don't get a chance to speak. "Intolerant bigot" isn't a race, religion, ethnicity or marginalized group. "Fuck Jews/Gays/Blacks" isn't a political platform.

This isn't a discussion of conservatism vs progessivism vs capitalism vs socialism or anything like that. This is a group of people choosing to believe that certain groups of people are lesser (or not human at all) based on nothing but things like country of origin, color of skin, or who they make romantic partners.

I will defend the right of any person I disagree with on economic or social policy to speak thier minds and have an open dialogue weighing options, but when the only point you have to make is "Fuck those people" and you claim intolerance when people aren't trying to hear it, you aren't trying to have an open dialogue, you are a smarmy child trying to twist peoples words so you can go "nyah nyah!".