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WrenchNinja

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Oct 25, 2017
18,733
Canada
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2...-dogs-sparks-controversy-depiction-japan/amp/

The film Isle of Dogs has become the subject of a heated debate online, with commentators accusing it of racism and "cultural appropriation".

Directed by The Royal Tenenbaums' Wes Anderson, the stop-motion animation is set in a near-futuristic version of Japan, where all dogs from the fictional city of Megasaki have been exiled to an off-shore rubbish dump, following an outbreak of "dog flu".

Reviewing the film in February, Telegraph critic Tim Robey wrote that the film's use of Japanese "archetypes" was "certain to get Anderson in hot water once the film is more widely seen".

That seems to be the case: following the film's US premiere last week, a Los Angeles Times review has sparked widespread debate. Reviewer Justin Chang criticised Anderson's "weakness for racial stereotyping", asking: "Does this white American filmmaker's highly selective, idiosyncratic rendering of an East Asian society constitute a sincere act of homage, or a clueless failure of sensitivity?"

Chang took issue with the use of language in the film, noting that the people of Megasaki speak in Japanese – without subtitles – while the dogs all speak American English, voiced by a cast including Scarlett Johansson, Bryan Cranston and Tilda Swinton.

"All these coy linguistic layers amount to their own form of marginalisation, effectively reducing the hapless, unsuspecting people of Megasaki to foreigners in their own city," Chang wrote, describing the film's dystopian world as "ugly in ways beyond what even its maker could have intended".

 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
A few people online is an outrage? Can we see how the Japanese public reacts first?
Those criticisms sound really stupid.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
I can't really comment on it before seeing the film for myself, but odd idiosyncrasies are kind of Wes Anderson's thing. I don't think there's any ill intent behind them, but again, I need to see the film first.
 
Dec 11, 2017
4,824
Having the humans speak one language and the dogs another doesn't sound like a problem to me. I assume the language barrier is intentional because the animals don't understand what the humans are doing.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
I haven't seen the movie, but I fully expected this conflict to come sooner or later.
 

NealMcCauley

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,498
FMF got flak for Americanizing the animals too.

Will wait to see if the design and look of the film is problematic.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,025
From the trailer i guessed they would have some some corny and dated depictions of japan
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,053
I doubt there's ill intent behind it, but it's still a bad look. And there's a white savior character in it too, right?
 

Gravidee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,357
I already thought something was off when I saw that mushroom cloud used as a gag in the trailer.
 

YaBish

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,340
I love Grand Budapest Hotel as much as the next person, but this doesn't really surprise me. Anderson's films have never really struck me as overly culturally sensitive. Most of the time the PoC are relegated to sidekick status while the white male lead deals with some problem of their own making.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,236
Having the humans speak one language and the dogs another doesn't sound like a problem to me. I assume the language barrier is intentional because the animals don't understand what the humans are doing.
That was my impression from the trailer too. I hope it's not a plot point because then it won't work on people who can speak Japanese, but I can't think of an alternative that wouldn't be more insulting (having them speak jibberish).
 

36 Chambers

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,345
Granted im pretty clueless with regards to this kinda stuff...

Chang took issue with the use of language in the film, noting that the people of Megasaki speak in Japanese – without subtitles – while the dogs all speak American English, voiced by a cast including Scarlett Johansson, Bryan Cranston and Tilda Swinton.

What is he taking issue with exactly? The no subtitles?
 

tino

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,561
I didn't like The Darjeeling Limited, I wouldn't be surprised if Wes Anderson didn't spend time to learn about other culture. He is basically as white as Woody Allen.

Although he should get an Oscar for The Grand Budapest Hotel.
 

ElectricBlanketFire

What year is this?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,819
As a huge Wes Anderson fan, this wouldn't surprise me. We're seeing it with a friend of ours from Japan and his wife so we'll obviously discuss it afterwards.
 

Deleted member 4552

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
2,570
Japanese culture is one of appropration and reappropriation.

Its not out of bounds to use and they do not need your protection.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
As a big fan of Wes Anderson I was very anxious that there would be some stuff in this one. While they were not mean-spirited, there have been some things around cultural representation in past films of his that have made me raise my eyebrows a bit
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,896
It says marginalization of japan, but for now i am going to assume that what they really mean is marginalization of japanese americans.

That tends to be what these complaints amount to.
 

GekigangerV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
653
Having the humans speak one language and the dogs another doesn't sound like a problem to me. I assume the language barrier is intentional because the animals don't understand what the humans are doing.

I haven't seen the movie myself but that is the feeling I got as well. From what I see it appears to be in a way that a human would talk to a dog, in simple statements.

The Justin Change article at least gives that impression

Much of the Japanese dialogue, especially Atari's, has been pared down to simple statements that non-speakers can figure out based on context and facial expressions; longer, more complicated exchanges are translated aloud by a handy on-screen English interpreter

But apparently that appears to be one of the key issues with Chang's cultural appropriation thesis

"All these coy linguistic layers amount to their own form of marginalization, effectively reducing the hapless, unsuspecting people of Megasaki to foreigners in their own city,"
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,465
Having the humans speak one language and the dogs another doesn't sound like a problem to me. I assume the language barrier is intentional because the animals don't understand what the humans are doing.
I need to see the film first, but I agree. It's not like you could have the dogs bark through the whole movie... What language do you want them to speak? Or should the Japanese people speak English too? In the trailer the language barrier is clearly a plot point.

It would be like making everyone in Lost in Translation speak English.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,505
The telegraph piece oversells the controversy a bit. The Times article is much more evenhanded than the twitter noise that followed it, and the telegraph's own reviewer makes only passing mention to the possibility that Anderson's use of Japanese iconography, fashion, art, music and language can be perceived as appropriative.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
Movie seems like a political statement
Im ok with this so far. Will wait on what the opinion of the target audience is
 

ArmsofSleep

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,833
Washington DC
I sort of saw these criticisms coming from a mile away, but IMO the film is pretty tastefully done. Also having a Japanese person actually involved in the writing of the story really helps their case.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,124
It definitely crossed my mind when I saw the film...Given the history of 'ching chong chinaman' racist representations, some of the stuff in the film veers pretty close.

Film has a lot of style
 

Deleted member 134

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Oct 25, 2017
1,411
I can't really comment on it before seeing the film for myself, but odd idiosyncrasies are kind of Wes Anderson's thing. I don't think there's any ill intent behind them, but again, I need to see the film first.

I doubt there's ill intent behind it, but it's still a bad look. And there's a white savior character in it too, right?
Ill intent? Who cares about ill intent? It's ridiculous to make such a film and not consider how it could be perceived, ill intent or not. Pointing to intent is a way to escape the reality of being racist. You might not know you're a racist, feel you aren't, and don't intend to do racist things, but that doesn't fix reality.

I am not talking about this film specifically. I just want to squash the notion of intent absolving issues.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
7,663
When I first saw the trailer for this before, I think, TLJ, I was cringing out of my skin at the depiction of Japanese people that seemed straight out of 80's and 90's Asian exploitation films.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,711
Ill intent? Who cares about ill intent? It's ridiculous to make such a film and not consider how it could be perceived, ill intent or not. Pointing to intent is a way to escape the reality of being racist. You might not know you're a racist, feel you aren't, and don't intend to do racist things, but that doesn't fix reality.

I am not talking about this film specifically. I just want to squash the notion of intent absolving issues.
Are these complaints about the movie or complaints about japanese culture?
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,674
USA USA USA
I haven't seen the movie myself but that is the feeling I got as well. From what I see it appears to be in a way that a human would talk to a dog, in simple statements.

The Justin Change article at least gives that impression



But apparently that appears to be one of the key issues with Chang's cultural appropriation thesis
i mean its mostly from a dogs point of view right? maybe? whenever there is a movie with focus on a small animal society or whatever in a city the humans are always 'the other'.

ill have to see it i guess
 

Spacejaws

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
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Scotland
I can't imagine any director-writer relishing the idea of making a movie he can't understand with dialog he didn't write.

And that wouldn't convey the language barrier problem.

Throw in the fact it's marketed at an American audience who I'm fairly certain loathe subtitles and yea I can see why they didn't go with subs for the dogs. I'd go so far as to say if they argued the case the dogs needed subs for the whole movie it wouldn't have been funded or at least would have been much more of a battle.
 

cervanky

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,296
Cultural appropriation is a concept oriented around power dynamics, where a dominant culture takes something from a minority culture in a disrespectful way - it's a form of colonialism.

When we're talking about a film like this culturally appropriating Japan, are we looking at it solely within its context as an American film released in America and its relationship to Japanese-Americans? On a global level, I don't think Japan itself is threatened by this, given how entrenched Japanese culture is as the majority culture of the country, though I could be wrong.
 

Squarehard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,829
This is meant to be a homage to Akira Kurosawa, so I'll reserve my judgement for when I actually see it.

Some of the initial complaints in this review feels a bit pedantic though.
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
I'm actually hyped for this movie. I do wonder what Japan will think of it. If anything they'll understand the story better and that changes things.
 

N_Cryo

Avenger
Nov 6, 2017
2,576
west coast
I haven't seen any of Wes Anderson's movies but reading about his other works, he seems to have a distinct style. Too bad I can't see the movie this week since I'm already planning to see Pacific Rim 2.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,484
Dallas, TX
On the one hand, the humans speaking unsubbed Japanese and the dogs speaking English is an effective way to communicate the language barrier between the two groups to audiences, but on the other hand, Wes Anderson is among the world's whitest men, and it wouldn't surprised me if he had made more an orientalist homage to his stereotypes of Japan than to Japan itself. I doubt there's any actual malice there, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't quite live up to the current bar for sensitivity around cultural appropriation.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
I'll ask some Japanese friends, see what they say, and report back. I think this will come down to a general divide between Japanese people from Japan saying "I didn't find it offensive at all! I'm glad people from the west like our culture enough to make a movie about it!" and Japanese-Americans finding it othering or exoticizing in a way that they don't like.
Having the dogs speak Japanese with subs, maybe?
Then there wouldn't be a separation between the dogs' language and the human language. This seems like the sort of project that could be negatively interpreted no matter how the filmmaker went about depicting the language divide, depending on how uncharitable the viewer is about intent.

We'll have to wait and see how the actual movie handles things and how people react to it then.
 

Nightcall

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Oct 27, 2017
141
User warned for being dismissive and insulting to opinions due to holder's birthplace
The opinions of japanese-americans generations removed from Japan are absolutely irrelevant in any debate about cultural appropriation. Waiting for proper commentary from primary sources before believing any controversy.

Reminds me of the absolutely ridiculous "controversy" about a kimono exhibition a while ago. College-aged Americans that didn't even speak Japanese crying for a boycott while the Japanese obasans went there in kimonos to teach anyone interested.
 

Ratrat

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Oct 27, 2017
1,867
Are these complaints about the movie or complaints about japanese culture?
Nope. But you can bet we'll have a host of ill informed westerners telling us to be
offended.

The opinions of japanese-americans generations removed from Japan are absolutely irrelevant in any debate about cultural appropriation. Waiting for proper commentary from primary sources before believing any controversy.

Reminds me of the absolutely ridiculous "controversy" about a kimono exhibition a while ago. College-aged Americans that didn't even speak Japanese crying for a boycott while the Japanese obasans went there in kimonos to teach anyone interested.

This too.
 

Vas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
Seen this whole scenario before. One of those situations where foreign people get offended on behalf of Japanese people while virtually every actual Japanese person thinks it's awesome. Kimono exhibit 2.0.
 

ObbyDent

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Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
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A few people online is an outrage? Can we see how the Japanese public reacts first?
Those criticisms sound really stupid.
Are you actually saying that Japanese Americans (who are the ones complaining on Twitter above, btw) aren't allowed to outrage against this because they aren't in Japan?
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,074
I'll ask some Japanese friends, see what they say, and report back. I think this will come down to a general divide between Japanese people from Japan saying "I didn't find it offensive at all! I'm glad people from the west like our culture enough to make a movie about it!" and Japanese-Americans finding it othering or exoticizing in a way that they don't

If i recall, GITS wasn't too much of an issue in Japan either. Most of it came from the US.

What typically gets the blow up in Japan seems to be stuff like casting a Chinese actor in the Geisha film a decade ago.

The appropriation discuss is typically heavily American.