Bayonetta makes me actively uncomfortable. Not because its sexualized but because it feels so out of place to me. I never make it very far.
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What are your problematic favorites?
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Lots of blackfaces in Breath of Fire III/IV. Also some in Legend of Mana.
Zidane's silly hand in FFIX
It's hard to list everything wrong with the Ar Tonelico series haha Too many creepy shit.
Homophobia/Transphobia and sexualized minors are far too common in lots of japanese games.
Deponia's humour is just fucked up. Great series but its comedy is really tryhard sometimes.
Zidane's silly hand in FFIX
It's hard to list everything wrong with the Ar Tonelico series haha Too many creepy shit.
Homophobia/Transphobia and sexualized minors are far too common in lots of japanese games.
Deponia's humour is just fucked up. Great series but its comedy is really tryhard sometimes.
What parts of this are stated explicitly in the game?
I'm already separating Card's personal views from the game, so pointing to another of his works isn't going to automatically convince me that the game explicitly reflects his politics. What political specifics are in the game? Is it a coup by the far left? I honestly don't remember if the plot of the game was that detailed.
The ending picture would have Samus wearing less depending how quickly you beat the game.
wtfThe ending picture would have Samus wearing less depending how quickly you beat the game.
The Darksiders series.
I've enjoyed my time with the games quite a bit. They're not perfect but they're fun, and I've had more fun playing them than many other more lauded titles this gen. But THQ Nordic's bizarre Q&A with that cesspool of a message board is highly problematic for me, to say the least.
I didn't understand the decision to do it then, and I don't understand it now... unless the goal was to reach out to that demographic.
I've enjoyed my time with the games quite a bit. They're not perfect but they're fun, and I've had more fun playing them than many other more lauded titles this gen. But THQ Nordic's bizarre Q&A with that cesspool of a message board is highly problematic for me, to say the least.
I didn't understand the decision to do it then, and I don't understand it now... unless the goal was to reach out to that demographic.
Bloody hell forgot about that mess, at least Capcom dealt with that problem.
As for the VA issues; the guy who voices Morrison (the only African American character), is white, gives a horribly stereotypical performance and did a number of YouTube videos featuring offensive stereotypes (deleted after they came to light around DMC5 launch).
And Reuben Langdon is a nut (to put it lightly).
Reuben Langdon (Dante of DMC) blames sexual harassment victims; thinks MeToo and BLM"goes too far" UPDATE: Regrets nothing; Capcom never investigated
Reuben Langdon, who is the voice and mo-cap actor behind Dante in the Devil May Cry series since Devil May Cry 3, was recently interviewed on YouTube and during said interview an extended discussion about the recent events of his fellow voice actor Vic Mignogna having various sexual harassment...
www.resetera.com
I'd also agree with Persona 4, but also would put Persona 3 and 5 on top of that. Persona 3 has transphobia and Junpei being a misogynist that we're supposed to love him for being ("C'mon, I"m a guy!"). Persona 5 also has a lot of homophobia.
I'd also put Catherine (the original) up there.
Man the above games were Atlus P-Studio games.....really makes you think.
I'd also put Catherine (the original) up there.
The treatment of Erica was rather shit, since the whole thing was Tobey had a crush on her and finally had sex with her in one ending of the game, and then it was revealed that she was trans, which led to him going "Come onnnn I want my V-card baaaack" Then you also have the credits where Erica is deadnamed. She's also deadnamed in an artbook.
Fortunately Atlus USA has said they would NOT be deadnaming her in Full Body, which I do applaud them doing.
Fortunately Atlus USA has said they would NOT be deadnaming her in Full Body, which I do applaud them doing.
Man the above games were Atlus P-Studio games.....really makes you think.
Snatcher is a superb game that is perhaps the one title where Kojima's tendency to write stories and set pieces that stand on the shoulder of giants manage to pay off as a lovely tribute piece, and the localization helmed by Blaustein's team contains some of my favorite writing and direction in any game ever. It's pretty much my favorite Kojima title and one of my favorite visual novels.
... But that doesn't prevent it from including some primo Kojima bullshit, particularly in the way it treats Katrina. I can buy that Gillian is a bit of a flawed hero in that he's already flirting with other women due to his marriage being on the rocks - which mainly seems to be done via Mika - but to throw Katrina into the mix, a character who was originally intended to be a minor and has the most fan service elements in the game, is really, really bad. It doesn't help that the writing generally treats her the most as the "token pretty character" in the game and always draws attention to it. The localization at the very least changed her age but it's only to the bare minimum, so the disparity is no less bad.
... But that doesn't prevent it from including some primo Kojima bullshit, particularly in the way it treats Katrina. I can buy that Gillian is a bit of a flawed hero in that he's already flirting with other women due to his marriage being on the rocks - which mainly seems to be done via Mika - but to throw Katrina into the mix, a character who was originally intended to be a minor and has the most fan service elements in the game, is really, really bad. It doesn't help that the writing generally treats her the most as the "token pretty character" in the game and always draws attention to it. The localization at the very least changed her age but it's only to the bare minimum, so the disparity is no less bad.
Fighting games in general are tough... I'd love to play Soul Calibur with my daughters but I don't really want to expose them to Ivy. Dead or Alive is of course out of the question. Even in games like Street Fighter that don't necessarily have a reputation for fanservice there's always that one character with their boobs out.
Also, I guess a second for me, absolutely a great series, would be Shantae. The motif of the game has a lot of attractive/sexy/whatever women in it and there's been more than one instance where they went more risque than usual (they do usually have some limits!), but I know a number of people take issue with the game, especially after Bozon tweeted that Shantae was supposed to be 16 or thereabouts.
... but wasn't that deadnaming thing found to not actually be true or at the very least misconstrued (same thing in this context, I suppose)? The translation was suggesting not that it wouldn't happen but that it hadn't happened yet due to timeline shenanigans.
OP
OP
On P3, I thought
Junpei's misogyny at the beginning was intended to be part of his redemption arc (in that he grows beyond that), no? I know at least in the FeMC route the story actually made a point of this, I thought the point of his misogyny was that he moved past it.
Maybe FES didn't do that. I don't know.
Maybe FES didn't do that. I don't know.
Persona: The Thread. Really hate how LGBT stuff is handled, obviously, along with the sexualization of high school girls and the romance system having a tendency to treat the girls like a prize to be won. But especially in the case of Persona 5, everything else is so well done that I can look past it (although I understand why others can't).
Yep. I've played most of the games and watched most of the anime. Love the series but I won't deny it's filled to the brim with really, really questionable shit. Especially Fate/Extra CCC and Grand Order.
Black Ops I campaign is the most obvious and glaring for me that I can think of. It's super jingoistic and over the top (the Kremlin is letting a general launch a chemical weapons strike on US soil, uncritical support of stuff like Bay of Pigs and 'Nam - plus their Castro being laughably evil instead of the complex figure he was in reality, letting you shoot surrendering enemies, using a napalm launcher as a weapon, torturing a dude in cold blood with a piece of glass - tho tbf it's largely painted as unsavoury and to tell the player that Hudson might not be working in the player's best interest, etc.) That said, there's so much action and insanity in that pulpy stupidity that I can't help but love every minute of it, esp compared to Blops II, whose negative qualities - besides Ollie North having an uncritical cameo and the whitewashing of Jonas Savimbi - largely outweigh the positives (mostly those damn awful Strike Force missions to get the best possible endings).
Shadow Complex is part of the same universe. In fact, he was commissioned to write Empire as a tie-in for the game and to come up with the backstory before the novel took on a life of its own.
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I really never felt like he had a redemption IMO when he was pretty shitty for the entire game, puts himself and the rest of SEES at risk multiple times because of a girl that's clearly tried to kill him that he's still chasing. And then in the FeMC Route, he has that moment about how he shouldn't have judged her so quickly because she was a girl, and that he shouldn't call her "cutie", and then he proceeds to do exactly that again. I don't think it was really much of a redemption at all.
The Chidori stuff was also supposed to sort of be a redemption thing for him, but honestly it was just his own stupidity. I mean he basically goes "HEY GIRL WEARING WEIRD CLOTHES SITTING THERE DRAWING, MY FRIENDS AND I SUMMON THESE THINGS CALLED PERSONAS AND GO KILL MONSTERS AND SHIT AT NIGHT, ISN'T THAT COOL? SOME PEOPLE ARE HUNTING US TOO!" And then she takes him hostage the next full moon...
The Chidori stuff was also supposed to sort of be a redemption thing for him, but honestly it was just his own stupidity. I mean he basically goes "HEY GIRL WEARING WEIRD CLOTHES SITTING THERE DRAWING, MY FRIENDS AND I SUMMON THESE THINGS CALLED PERSONAS AND GO KILL MONSTERS AND SHIT AT NIGHT, ISN'T THAT COOL? SOME PEOPLE ARE HUNTING US TOO!" And then she takes him hostage the next full moon...
My favorite game is Persona 5 (and by extension, Persona 4), and yeah, there's some gross homophobic shit. I can certainly understand if that stuff would sour someone on the game. The treatment of Quiet in MGSV comes to mind too.
Oh! Okay, then, yeah, no way to misconstrue that other than just being shitty. I could see putting both with a / given the ending that was mentioned, but either way what happened should not have happened given how little the one is present compared to the other.
I think we were talking about two completely different topics there. Atlus USA specifically talked about changing that for the credits. They didn't say anything about that other scene.
The homophobia isn't even the worst thing in Persona 5. Presenting sexually charged interactions between adults in positions of authority and the teenager protagonist as a "cool" thing to aim for is really harmful to the already difficult social perception of such sexual abuse in reality.
That said, yeah I really like Persona 5 too. It's one of those games where the core theme is just so strong and timely for today's world, but yet the peripheral content can be pretty questionable.
Probably Xenoblade 2. The Localization tried to fix some of the creeper stuff and while I think there's some hyperbole around the content in the game versus what's actually told through it's story it's the one that (especially here) gets the most flak when brought up and can't really be talked about most cases.
I just love the fight system, music and world too much.
I just love the fight system, music and world too much.
We are, after my previous post.
It's shitty to deadname Erica in the credits as just Eric and parenthesis EricA.
The Metal Gear Solid games have some real... immature views about sexuality, adult relationships, and women. I could probably find moments in all the earlier games that bother me more than anything in Phantom Pain, though I haven't revisited it.
I've played 1-4 enough to where, on a replay, I wouldn't be able to keep myself from skipping or completely tuning out for 95% of the story anyway.
I've played 1-4 enough to where, on a replay, I wouldn't be able to keep myself from skipping or completely tuning out for 95% of the story anyway.
SMTIV: Apocalypse has a lot of problems. Even if you can stomach all the "anime", Persona inspired elements, you still have that one story bit where a 14 year old girl gets posessed by a fertility goddess and goes on to almost have an orgasm while dismantling a barrier. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ, man.
But at the same time the gameplay is absolutely fantastic; I personally rank the press turn battle system among the best of all time.
But at the same time the gameplay is absolutely fantastic; I personally rank the press turn battle system among the best of all time.
Hey I saw that!
But if I only played the game would I have any idea about the author's politics?
I get that Card is a problematic figure. I'm trying to get at whether the game, on its own, communicates anything of substance where problematic ideology is concerned.
And you might figure "Oh well, they probably figured out how trashy this was 20+ years ago now, right? "
2017:
- Xenogears. Odd, antiquated notions of what women are "supposed to" represent in society.
- Final Fantasy VI. Celes is one of the best characters in the franchise. It's too bad she and Terra have no pants and they must scream.
- Persona 4. Dear god, where to begin.
- Metal Gear Solid. Pretty much the entire series. Objectifying women is like a national pastime with Kojima.
Detroit: Become Human and Beyond Two Souls.
I really enjoy how dedicated they are to telling a story buuuuut
They tend to _"write a check they can't cash"_ so to speak when dealing with serious themes like slavery, sexual assault and trauma.
I justify it to myself as an earnest blunder in an attempt to write a serious story. Beyond Two Souls in particular I regard as a beautiful mess.
I really enjoy how dedicated they are to telling a story buuuuut
They tend to _"write a check they can't cash"_ so to speak when dealing with serious themes like slavery, sexual assault and trauma.
I justify it to myself as an earnest blunder in an attempt to write a serious story. Beyond Two Souls in particular I regard as a beautiful mess.
DanganRonpa and Catherine are two games that have already been mentioned a ton in this thread, so I won't go into detail there.
The Atelier franchise is one of my favourite franchises, full stop. They're incredibly cozy games, the alchemy gameplay is really involved and fun to minmax, and I like hanging out with the characters and doing all their questlines, even if the writing is occasionally really trope-y. But I find it hard to reconcile how family-friendly the games are with the occasional (and sometimes flagrant) fanservice. This is true of a lot of Japanese games, but because Atelier is otherwise a pretty wholesome franchise, it really sticks out there.
I also love the Yakuza games, and I think as time has passed they've gotten a lot better about this, but I do find that they rely too much on the male gaze and traditionally male perspectives on women. The games often have difficulty finding ways to include women as significant characters outside of people to be rescued or characters who offer emotional support. Yakuza 5 is one of my favourite games in the series partially because it gives Haruka some actual agency for once, at least in her segment. There's also this uncomfortable contrast between female characters we're expected to identify and sympathize with, like the main hostesses in the Cabaret Club minigames or the girlfriends in Judgment, versus female characters that are really only there for eye candy like the gravure videos in Yakuza 0 or the catfight game in Yakuza 6/0.
The Atelier franchise is one of my favourite franchises, full stop. They're incredibly cozy games, the alchemy gameplay is really involved and fun to minmax, and I like hanging out with the characters and doing all their questlines, even if the writing is occasionally really trope-y. But I find it hard to reconcile how family-friendly the games are with the occasional (and sometimes flagrant) fanservice. This is true of a lot of Japanese games, but because Atelier is otherwise a pretty wholesome franchise, it really sticks out there.
I also love the Yakuza games, and I think as time has passed they've gotten a lot better about this, but I do find that they rely too much on the male gaze and traditionally male perspectives on women. The games often have difficulty finding ways to include women as significant characters outside of people to be rescued or characters who offer emotional support. Yakuza 5 is one of my favourite games in the series partially because it gives Haruka some actual agency for once, at least in her segment. There's also this uncomfortable contrast between female characters we're expected to identify and sympathize with, like the main hostesses in the Cabaret Club minigames or the girlfriends in Judgment, versus female characters that are really only there for eye candy like the gravure videos in Yakuza 0 or the catfight game in Yakuza 6/0.
It's kinda wild because they literally frame Kamoshida as being a monster for taking advantage of his power dynamic but then they turn around and let a student engage in relationships with their doctor and teacher.
My immediate thought. I love that game's style but wow does it have issues.
Thankfully my faves aren't as problematic as a lot of the stuff getting posted here (like the Atlus stuff...) Metroid gets bad with showing Samus in her skivvies, but thankfully that's only at the end of the game usually and sometimes they don't even do that (thanks Prime 1!)
When I was big into Dota 2 I thought about how iffy it was that, with very few exceptions, the women in the game were all conventionally attractive humanoids, while the dudes could be slobbering monsters, goofy brutes, tiny goblins, and a handful of decent looking guys.
But a lot of the other stuff isn't so great. Most players explain it away by saying that only the story quests are canon and the player doesn't actually kill 200 Rathalos just to get one gem for that cool sword, but I can totally see why people with animal empathy problems would have an issue with the game.
And calling it "The New World" was a really bad idea. The story's already got colonial over and undertones, they didn't need to spell it out even more.
When I was big into Dota 2 I thought about how iffy it was that, with very few exceptions, the women in the game were all conventionally attractive humanoids, while the dudes could be slobbering monsters, goofy brutes, tiny goblins, and a handful of decent looking guys.
There's a handful of times where they legit get into the whole "we need to kill this thing so as to save the environment" and it seems to work from a story point of view.
Nergigante and Deviljho are writen as textbook invasive species that will destroy the ecosystem if you don't kill them ASAP, and even though you don't kill Zorah, you still have to rough it up so it leaves and doesn't blow up the continent. And all of the Elders are borderline mythic godbeings that destroy everything in their path so they kinda have to be culled as needed.
And calling it "The New World" was a really bad idea. The story's already got colonial over and undertones, they didn't need to spell it out even more.
FRONT MISSION 3
Characters come across as too whiny and combat can feel very slow.
(otherwise, it's the greatest game ever made. lol) <3
Characters come across as too whiny and combat can feel very slow.
(otherwise, it's the greatest game ever made. lol) <3
Persona would be the biggest one for me for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned.
The other big one is pretty much the fighting game genre as a near whole. I dig sexed up characters, but that seems to be the only way that most of these devs choose to make the women in these games. It's very rare to find exceptions to this historically, but at least MK11 seems to be trying, much to the dismay of fuckbois that can't get enough of dem ass n titties in their vidya games.
And I say this as someone that is a fan of most of Katarina's design from Tekken 7, who is oddly also a target of slut shaming by the same people that complain about the lack of sexualized characters in MK11...
People are weird.
The other big one is pretty much the fighting game genre as a near whole. I dig sexed up characters, but that seems to be the only way that most of these devs choose to make the women in these games. It's very rare to find exceptions to this historically, but at least MK11 seems to be trying, much to the dismay of fuckbois that can't get enough of dem ass n titties in their vidya games.
And I say this as someone that is a fan of most of Katarina's design from Tekken 7, who is oddly also a target of slut shaming by the same people that complain about the lack of sexualized characters in MK11...
People are weird.
Solatorobo: Red the Hunter. Really impressive game on the DS but the further I got in, everything seemed really fetishized.
Sonic
His existence has been problematic by cultivating its disturbing fanbase. But damn, some of his games are a roller coaster ride.
His existence has been problematic by cultivating its disturbing fanbase. But damn, some of his games are a roller coaster ride.
Xenogears really does copy and paste all of the worst aspects of Evangelion.
Atlus games (they are queer coded and homophobic, it's the worst combo), deus ex hr, metal gear solid 4, and American megees Alice madness returns (the story unlike the orignal kinda shit the bed and they had to turn it into a rape thing)
bayonetta is the one for me. beat the first game 3 times and the 2nd one 4+(?) times? I started a tradition to play through bayo 2 each year during christmas a few years ago.
but back when I first bought a switch and replayed bayonetta 2 I played it in front of my girlfriend. after the first time she said "oh jeez" and I explained, "yeah, there's a lot of that throughout this game", we both just laughed a handful of times throughout the playthrough. after I beat it she started a game and made it to chapter 6 in one sitting but hasn't picked it back up since :(
but back when I first bought a switch and replayed bayonetta 2 I played it in front of my girlfriend. after the first time she said "oh jeez" and I explained, "yeah, there's a lot of that throughout this game", we both just laughed a handful of times throughout the playthrough. after I beat it she started a game and made it to chapter 6 in one sitting but hasn't picked it back up since :(
I'm not sure how much of this counts as my "favorite", since every instance of this (especially in JRPGs) has annoyed me to no end, but the plot device where the main (almost always male) character's motivation comes from the kidnapping/death of a female character (sister, mother, love interest) is and has always been incredibly lame.
Do you have an example of blackface in Legend of Mana? I definitely remember Mr Moti, who was a orientalist stereotype.
Do you have an example of blackface in Legend of Mana? I definitely remember Mr Moti, who was a orientalist stereotype.