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Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
I mean, it isn't really any different to optional post game content. You can play 100% of the rest of the game without ever touching the impossible lair beyond the opening sequence.

My point is just that ending/credits shouldn't be put behind this type of content that's vastly out of step with the rest of the game's difficulty curve. Most people just beat games and move on, let them do that and have this kind of content as something optional (regardless of whether it's accessible before or after beating the game).

That said, devs can make their games however they want and not every game has to be for everyone. I'm glad I saw this thread as the game was loosely on my radar (I don't play many non-Mario platformers these days as I prefer narrative-driven games), but I'll skip it now as I know I won't have the patience to finish this stage and I like to be able to complete the games I start (I'm very picky about what I play and rarely abandon things).
 

lightning16

Member
May 17, 2019
1,763
The final stage is horrible. I don't mind a difficult final stage, but they went way overboard. It's way too long, and even worse is that the game doesn't meaningfully prepare you for this final stage at all. I can't speak for everyone that played the Impossible Lair, but I know when I played through the rest of the game, I approached every obstacle with the mentality of "okay, I have a one hit cushion and if I get hit I'll just get my partner back." The final stage giving you a finite number of hits completely changes the game and I hated it. It also doesn't help that every single obstacle in this stage is much more difficult than anything you'll find in any stage before it. If the last stage was on a comparable level of even the most difficult sections of the entirety of the preceding game, it'd be much more reasonable.

It's just a very bad stage.
 
This reminds me of Super Mario Land 2, where the castle is noticeable harder than the rest, with no checkpoints as well.
Back in the day, I only beat it on easy mode and even later I found it super hard on normal and was still cheesing with bunny ears.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,469
I decided not to buy the game because of what I heard about this level. Ending up getting it for free from EGS anyway but am hesitant to start. It'd be like not wanting to start Game of Thrones now since you've heard about the ending and know you won't enjoy it.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I don't mind its huge difficulty spike , but tbh if I were designing the game I would've made the level actually change the further you progressed in the over world to keep it more in line with the standard difficulty. There are already cool ideas to change levels by flooding parts of the map, freezing them, releasing enemies into them ect. It would be really cool to say, find a way to shut off all conveyer belts in the Impossible Lair via a switch you could find. Or discover where the enemies are being equipped with jet packs and put a stop to that so they don't appear in the Lair. Or heat up the stage just enough so all the slippery ice surfaces melt. So on and so forth to make the final level as easy as possible depending on how far you get in the game.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
It was awful and brought down what would have otherwise been one of the best 2D platformers released in years

Practice. Get better.
How can you practice when it takes like 20 minutes to get 75% of the way through?

We got over the "wow you died, now you have to redo a lengthy section before you can try again" crap a decade ago in platformers and gaming was better for it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Great timing. I just streamed my entire progression through the level earlier this week (seven attempts over two hours, or eight if you count the short doomed run at the very start of the game) and wrote a fairly sizeable post about the experience in the OT, and thought the complaints were not only completely overblown, but arguably a mark that the level did exactly what it was meant to do.

I had been saying for years that I adore the concept of marathon gauntlet levels as the final capstone challenge of a platformer—it's something of a religious crusade for me, as far as game design goes—and the Impossible Lair was what sold me on the game in the first place. So this was very much a test to see if I actually meant what I said when faced with the actual game, or if there was indeed some kind of design deficiency in the level (some sort of painful unreliability from run to run, for instance) that made it tedious to learn. I'm pleased to say the Lair passed the test with flying colours, and actually felt a lot easier than I expected since the amount of room for error you get from the bee shield means you can assess and learn from dozens of mistakes in every run, not just one. I also consider it a very gentle bump in difficulty and technical demands from the medal collection challenges in the main game.

Excerpt:

I have to say: I now feel as though my attitude towards no-checkpoint gauntlet levels has been completely vindicated. Completely. I strongly recommend that Playtonic make no changes, and will honestly be disappointed if they capitulate to the checkpoint whining. The structure of this game is amazing and unique, and they should make no further compromises just to please those who feel entitled to see the end credits roll in every game and blame the designers otherwise.

Part of the problem is that the main game actually trains you to be sloppy. It never tracks deaths and dispenses entirely with the lives system without adjusting the design to compensate, so in the main game I found, very often, that if I lost Laylee shortly after a checkpoint—and scrambling to get Laylee back is by far the leading cause of death in this game—there was actually no reason not to just take a death right there and respawn with Laylee. I didn't go out of my way to exploit that deliberately, but it was difficult to ignore that the game is full of situations where taking a death is optimal.

What I'm saying is that the main game disguises how many hits or falls you normally take in the course of a level. And if you do pay attention to that sort of thing, you would know that the Impossible Lair is actually a very gentle step up mechanically. None of the obstacles are harder than what the main game already throws at you, and the Lair never even requires any mastery of the advanced mechanics that you need for the full 200/200 medal collection (notably, the undocumented roll -> roll -> jump input sequence where the secondary roll gives you extra horizontal coverage). It wasn't until I beat the Lair and watched a speed run video that I even knew about techniques like ground pound -> forward launch, although I might have triggered that accidentally here and there.

This is one of the most interesting concepts I've seen for structuring an endgame to make progression/collection in the rest of the game come off as substantial and free. (The point of reference for opening up the finale from the start, of course, is BotW, and the inspiration here is conspicuous.) The Lair is absolutely up to the task, and the bee-shield system makes it fundamentally more learnable than your typical gauntlet level because you have every opportunity to process the mistakes you are making along the way, instead of wondering what went wrong. That's the very opposite of trial-and-error and having to work all the way back to whatever killed you. You get to see up to 48 different fixable mistakes on every run, read what went wrong, and make as many adjustments as you can remember when you go back for more. (That's on top of the usual safety net you already get from losing and fetching Laylee—though as I said, throughout the whole game, that is as likely as not to kill you.)

One thing I'll add is that the divided reactions to this level have given me an extremely clear litmus test from now on for whose word I can trust on platformer design, and whose I can't.

I can't believe end credits placement matters as much to some people here as it apparently does. If you can't finish a game, you can't finish a game. Everyone dealt with this just fine when they were kids and struggling with the 8-bit classics. Not all games are meant to be beatable by everybody; you go until you have to put it down.

The logical conclusion already exists, you know: it's called Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and it places the credits after the first tutorial chapter where everyone can enjoy them, while still providing a rewarding marathon challenge at the very end for those of us who actually value long-scale consistency and methodical refinement as a core element of difficulty design. I don't have a problem with that either—credits placement is inconsequential, and that cuts both ways—but frankly, I prefer it Yooka-Laylee's way, and YLIL's fantastic game-long progression structure would not have clicked without it.

I'm incredibly excited to try it now given the backlash lol.

You won't be disappointed. The backlash is the proof that the level did its job.
 

Nabs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,692
I decided not to buy the game because of what I heard about this level. Ending up getting it for free from EGS anyway but am hesitant to start. It'd be like not wanting to start Game of Thrones now since you've heard about the ending and know you won't enjoy it.
You have a good 10 hours of great content before one single level you may or may not like. Some of us may not like it, but it's not that big of a deal.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,105
Providence, RI
How can you practice when it takes like 20 minutes to get 75% of the way through?

By playing more?

We got over the "wow you died, now you have to redo a lengthy section before you can try again" crap a decade ago in platformers and gaming was better for it.

There is still a place for that kind of difficulty. Not everything needs to be designed the same exact way. If a developer wants someone to do it all in one go, that's a very legitimate design choice.

And when you do beat it, it will feel even more rewarding.
 
OP
OP
lunanto

lunanto

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
7,648
Seems like they're planning to do just that, BTW:


Really good news to hear.

That would be the only way for me to see the credits sincerely. Too many videogames to play.

As an advice to others, the game is 200% recommendable, even with this a little out of place final level.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,695
I don't mind its huge difficulty spike , but tbh if I were designing the game I would've made the level actually change the further you progressed in the over world to keep it more in line with the standard difficulty. There are already cool ideas to change levels by flooding parts of the map, freezing them, releasing enemies into them ect. It would be really cool to say, find a way to shut off all conveyer belts in the Impossible Lair via a switch you could find. Or discover where the enemies are being equipped with jet packs and put a stop to that so they don't appear in the Lair. Or heat up the stage just enough so all the slippery ice surfaces melt. So on and so forth to make the final level as easy as possible depending on how far you get in the game.
They could also give it a variant that's in line with the rest of the game you eventually unlock by playing the game. All the other levels have 2 versions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
There is still a place for that kind of difficulty. Not everything needs to be designed the same exact way. If a developer wants someone to do it all in one go, that's a very legitimate design choice.

And when you do beat it, it will feel even more rewarding.

Absolutely. Once in a blue moon—or twice, I guess, if we account for Byleth getting into SSBU—I actually get to feel catered to as the target audience for a video game. This was one of those times, and I am sure as hell going to relish it, gloat about it, cross swords with the detractors, and ask for more.

People who want a Celeste-style experience of tight error margins but checkpoints on every screen have plenty of other options (chief among them the excellent Celeste). Impossible Lairs are a rarity, and the whole structure of this game was constructed as a support structure to make one possible as the central trunk of the experience. It's by far the best thing about an already excellent game, and I'll simply never see eye-to-eye with those whose narrow-minded vision of platformer pacing and difficulty design make them quick to accuse the developers of doing it all wrong.

A full range of variable difficulty tuning from 0 to 48 bees—all of that on top of the existing repeatable one-hit buffer you get from Laylee (rather than replacing it, as some people in this thread have clearly misunderstood)—is a generous spread already that accommodates rapid improvement. It's an indictment of the modern player base that it looks like the developers might have to cave.

For those who have beaten both levels, is Darker Side comparable to the Lair?

Darker Side is overall shorter in top-to-bottom running time, but has more dead air in terms of transitional segments and padding. The Lair has rest stops too for you to catch your breath and read the next obstacle, but they're a platform here, a platform there, interspersed throughout. The Lair also has mid-bosses (which are the main thing that extend the running time, depending on how cleanly you get through them), so perhaps you can think of it as Odyssey's Dark and Darker Sides mashed together.

Even though the Lair is a longer level, I took considerably less total time to master the Lair from my first attempt to the last, because you get to learn from up to 48 mistakes per run instead of 6 or so (and I always thought Darker Side was far too generous with health replenishment). But conceptually they're similar: no checkpoints, so you progressively clean up your mistakes as you go, while figuring out all the best patterns and improving your precision, speed, and flow.

Also, one other similarity they have is that neither Darker Side nor the Impossible Lair actually require you to use the most advanced techniques that are available in your move set. Darker Side never asks for mastery of Odyssey's cap jumps, and YLIL has a few undocumented movement mechanics but doesn't demand them of you either.

For reference, here's a thread I wrote about Darker Side when I first played it so you know where I'm coming from.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,031
Practice. Get better.

Always has to be an elitist prick response in one of these threads.

As others have said, it's not the difficulty that people are having issues with.....it's the fact that the level is 20-30 minutes long with no checkpoints so you have to start all the way over every single time you die. Whether you make it 20% through, or 85% through...the end result is the same, and that's just bad design.

I agree that this type of challenge is still applicable today, and wanted. Just don't make it mandatory in order to complete the story when everything you've designed the game with up until that point has been the COMPLETE opposite of what you're requiring them to do to finish the story. That was just a bad design decision.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,031
I have no reason to even read the rest of your post when you start it out like that.

"Get gud" and comments like that are no way to start a conversation when myself and many others in this post have brought up many valid reasons why the design of the Lair in it's current form is terrible.

It's not a difficulty thing. Myself and others im sure have played through all the souls games, etc.....so we're very familiar with the concept of difficulty and welcome it with open arms when there are systems built in to the game to still make it fair and not a waste of time, which the Lair in it's present form is the complete opposite.

And honestly, if you were going to make it that way then WHY make it completely mandatory to do it in order to see the story to completion after you've already invested the player for a dozen or so hours showing them the COMPLETE OPPOSITE design for the entirety up until that point?
 

Cbrun44

Member
I love this game. Absolutely worth the purchase. But, I will never ever be able to beat the Impossible Lair. I just don't have the patience for it and have no further intention of even trying it. The game itself, besides that, I'll definitely continue to return to down the line.
 

Reinhard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,592
This isn't an optional hard level like Mario does, but the ending to the game. It really needs checkpoints, make it an optional tonic for those who don't want checkpoints and want to turn it off. And if the devs want to keep the no tonics in final level, make it so the checkpoint tonic is the only equipable tonic for that level.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
What's it like going out of your way to play lame bullshit so you can look allegedly cool on forums?
Heh, I suck at Kaizo levels. I've only been able to beat 3 of em. It's not about looking cool, it's just time and dedication. But they are really well designed - a good Kaizo level has to do a LOT to be able to have a certain rhythm and be able to be completed at all, with a lot of signposting so a player can figure out what's being asked of them.
 

Solid278

Member
Aug 26, 2019
117
As someone who pretty much plays platformers for these types of levels, and was able to beat this one after a mercifully few tries (so I wasn't stuck for more than an hour or two), I felt this level to be terrible, for most of the same reasons already stated. More than anything else, what got to me is how gruelingly long and tedious it was. Even just removing (or far simplifying) the numerous, slow boss battles would have improved it immeasurably. IIRC, I also didn't find the controls to be too tight throughout the game, so needing to be so precise for this final level (as opposed to the rest of the game where mistakes were a minor inconvenience) was frustrating. Especially given the fact that I played this right after DK:TF... (conversely, I wish the challenge levels in that were just a bit more difficult...)
 

Badcoo

Member
May 9, 2018
1,606
Got around ~42 bees but still couldn't beat it. Gave up after a bunch of tries. Great music, though.
 

Catvoca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,182
It's completely out of place in a game that otherwise has wonderful difficulty options with its tonics and option to skip difficult sections of levels.

I gave up on it after a handful of tries as I was finding it not just hard, but incredibly dull. It's so slow paced.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,448
Just completed the game, and I sort of agree - this is an *excellent* final level, but by that I mean final level in the sense of, say, Grandmaster Galaxy or Champion's Road ; it would be perfect as a post-game bonus challenge. Something a little easier would be a better fit as the final level. Heck, a rejigged order which eliminates Stage 2 (for challenge) and Stage 4 (as a narrative rush as a finale) would probably be enough to make a decent final level while still having the ultimate challenge available in a postgame.

To some extent we get this now with the "Not-so-impossible lair" (i.e. Impossible Lair with checkpoints, the environment in which I completed it), but - as a result of the checkpoints - you still need enough precision to get through, it just alleviates the consistency required; it becomes four levels measured on your cumulative performance over them rather than one long level.
 
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DeniroSerafim

Member
Apr 5, 2018
277
The Impossible Lair is an incredible challenge and is lots of fun, really impressed with it. The entire game is amazing in fact, play it if you haven't!