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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,185
SF recently passed this and NYC is thinking of passing one. However, in NYC, there has been a clash with DeBlasio and Black community groups because the ban would criminalize a currently legal product that is disproportionately used in black and minority communities. Newports are a very popular brand in these communities.

Menthols are worse than conventional cigarettes. That is true. But as someone who has grown up in NYC, I'm wary of laws that target minorities indirectly, even if the spirit of the law is health advocacy.

NYC already has rather strong smoking laws as well. You can't smoke in public parks, restaurants, and bars.

So I'm torn. We know drug bans don't work historically. But the intention of the law is to promote better health outcomes as Menthol cigarettes are more harmful than regular cigarettes.
 

larrybud

Member
Oct 25, 2017
716
You said it yourself - drug bans don't work. The cigarette laws and taxes are particularly regressive. Meaning they harm the poor far more than the rich. And all in the name of "we know better what's good for you than you do."
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
You said it yourself - drug bans don't work. The cigarette laws and taxes are particularly regressive. Meaning they harm the poor far more than the rich. And all in the name of "we know better what's good for you than you do."

Health statistics are fairly reliable. As male smoking rates declined in England and Wales between 1971 and 2011, so lung cancer incidence and mortality declined to just over half the 1971 rate. Public policy can materially improve the health and wellbeing of poor people; there would be no way in which such a large decline in mortality could be achieved without a change affecting the great majority of the male population.

Outright bans may be counterproductive, but public policy is an important tool that should not be abandoned in the face of ruthless exploitation of the populace by those who knowingly sell a lethal and highly addictive product to them.
 

Bad_Boy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Asking as a black guy... why do we like menthols so much more? When i smoked i preferred them too but was there something deeper behind it?
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,014
I always hated Newports when I smoked, was like hot mouthwash to me so good riddance.
You said it yourself - drug bans don't work. The cigarette laws and taxes are particularly regressive. Meaning they harm the poor far more than the rich. And all in the name of "we know better what's good for you than you do."
In this particular case, if you are actively choosing to smoke cigarettes than yeah they do know better than you.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
Anecdote:

As a teenager trying cigarettes, I hated them. Then I tried menthol, and I started smoking them. I absolutely would not have started smoking regular.

But then I never developed a habit and only smoked when I was out drinking, and gave it up easily. So I don't know if my experience is usual.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
When I did smoke I smoked menthol. If it wasn't for menthol I wouldn't have smoked. It just tasted and felt better. So it does expand the pool of smokers to people who wouldn't use it otherwise.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,977
When I did smoke I smoked menthol. If it wasn't for menthol I wouldn't have smoked. It just tasted and felt better. So it does expand the pool of smokers to people who wouldn't use it otherwise.
Exactly, me and my friends are testament to this. One of those friends went on to develop a pack a day habit.
 

fick

Alt-Account
Banned
Nov 24, 2018
2,261
Menthols for life.

This one is pretty interesting, though. On one hand it's a public health issue, on the other hand there's the fact that it would disproportionately target black people.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,050
I don't smoke anymore but I'm not above bumming the occasional Newport every other month or so.

Get rid of menthols, and I'd never smoke a cigarette again.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,296
These the ones with those menthol balls in the filter you can click? Used to smoke those exclusively before quitting.

I guess they're sneakily trying smoking bans by going for less used kinds of cigarettes. Not really against this to be honest. But menthols were great to be honest.
 

Deleted member 1845

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
221
Asking as a black guy... why do we like menthols so much more? When i smoked i preferred them too but was there something deeper behind it?

Not sure, but I'm white and I only smoke Menthols. Most other whites I know only smoke Menthols too. I think it is just another stereotype unfairly attributed to blacks.
 

Bad_Boy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Not sure, but I'm white and I only smoke Menthols. Most other whites I know only smoke Menthols too. I think it is just another stereotype unfairly attributed to blacks.
Possibly. I know most of my family smokes them. Most of my white friends smoke without. Anecdotal though.

I honestly found cigarettes without menthol pretty bad tasting. And when i get hookah i usually ask for mint (with whatever flavor i chose).

Regardless, Glad i quit smoking though.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Menthols for life.

This one is pretty interesting, though. On one hand it's a public health issue, on the other hand there's the fact that it would disproportionately target black people.

I'm going to give you a little time to digest this in the context of public health policy. If people of a particular ethnic group are particularly susceptible to a severely toxic product that is unambiguously controlled by public policy, is it bad to deprive the targetted group by denying the drug pushers of that route to their deadly exploitation?

A pure libertarian might say that this is a matter of personal freedom. Okay, to that I say fuck off. Public policy must never facilitate predation.
 

larrybud

Member
Oct 25, 2017
716
Health statistics are fairly reliable. As male smoking rates declined in England and Wales between 1971 and 2011, so lung cancer incidence and mortality declined to just over half the 1971 rate. Public policy can materially improve the health and wellbeing of poor people; there would be no way in which such a large decline in mortality could be achieved without a change affecting the great majority of the male population.

Outright bans may be counterproductive, but public policy is an important tool that should not be abandoned in the face of ruthless exploitation of the populace by those who knowingly sell a lethal and highly addictive product to them.

I respect the thoroughness of your reply, but I'm not sure you understand addiction. What we are talking about here is a tax on the poor. A tax on the poor born of virtuous reasoning - doubly odious.
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
I respect the thoroughness of your reply, but I'm not sure you understand addiction. What we are talking about here is a tax on the poor. A tax on the poor born of virtuous reasoning - doubly odious.

So would you have opposed the changes born from the Beveridge Report, which gave the UK a social security safety net and universal healthcare?

Sometimes I despair of the twisted reasoning of Americans. Do you want your taxes to spent on increasing the public welfare, or not?
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Even when I smoked i couldn't touch menthols. So nasty.

I have to say this. My father smoked Old Holborn tobacco in roll ups, which used to stink the house out. My mother used to smoke much less often, and she'd smoke a brand called Consulate. It was a menthol cigarette.

There's a particular frequency, or sensory level if you like, at which a menthol cigarette operates. It does the same crap that other cigarettes do, such as coating everybody near to the smoker with greasy soot (and yeah, that crap goes into your children's lungs). But it also produces what I would at that time call a "ping." I knew when my mother was smoking because I would feel that ping. It felt like a high frequency monotone.

I still feel that my parents could have avoided subjecting me to cigarette smoke of any kind. I understand that they were addicted, but I don't think that's an excuse.

The menthol probably gave my mother a reason to engage in this lethal addiction.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,043
Insofar as governments have sought to ban and regulate nicotine, I think this makes as much sense as anything. Menthol cigarettes have historically targeted minors to get them hooked, even if adults today prefer menthols, there is a strong hook to pull in minors with flavored cigarettes and the marketing has historically matched that.

So I'm torn. We know drug bans don't work historically. But the intention of the law is to promote better health outcomes as Menthol cigarettes are more harmful than regular cigarettes.

It's don't think it's true that drug bans, universally, don't work. When part of a comprehensive program, bans can help reduce the number of users further. Cigarettes are probably one of the best cases of a comprehensive public health program, both moratoriums or regulations on sales, distribution, marketing, and access, with increased taxes/costs, and a huge amount of public health education which has largely been financed through 'the sin tax.' THis is definitely worked to dramatically reduce cigarette use in the United States, especially among minors (where cigarette sales are banned).

The trouble with a lot of other prohibitions, whether it's alcohol, marijuana, or other drugs, is that they often weren't accompanied by such sweeping public health education initiatives.

I respect the thoroughness of your reply, but I'm not sure you understand addiction. What we are talking about here is a tax on the poor. A tax on the poor born of virtuous reasoning - doubly odious.

I think that sin taxes, which are usually poor taxes, can be ethical if the revenue from the sin tax is used to educate the poor why that thing is "sinful" or harmful to them. Cigarette taxes are usually a good example (in most cities/states where they've been widely applied) of the right way to apply a sin tax / poor tax, because the revenue from that sin tax is used to educate the people targeted to dissuade them from smoking. With cigarette smoking, it's worked.

Other forms of sin taxes/poor taxes, like taxes on gambling, generally don't do anything to educate people why gambling is bad/stupid/negative. Part of the revenue will usually go to addiction services, but very rarely to public education about gambling, so it's basically the opposite. States with government gambling, like lotteries, usually do the exact opposite: They market to poor people about how playing the lottery is a fun game that's going to change their lives for the better; they usually put lottery games in places where poorer people are more likely to shop... Convenience stores, bars, etc. It'd be like if states actively marketed to people to buy cigarettes and told them that cigarettes would improve their lives like they do with gambling, it'd be deeply, deeply unethical. The way that most states treat gambling is similar to how cigarette companies targeted children in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

I'm ideologically opposed to sin taxes, but I understand their practical benefit v. cost (largely they're the easiest tax to pass with the least political ramifications in most states), but if revenue from the sin tax is used to discourage people from participating in that sin then I have less of a problem with it. I'm usually against sugar taxes because very few of them are also accompanied by comprehensive public education on why sugary foods are bad for you, almost none of them also accompany regulation on marketing sugary foods to children or the uneducated. THey're usually seen as easy revenue generators under the guise of public health.
 
Last edited:

MisterSnrub

Member
Mar 10, 2018
5,907
Someplace Far Away
Guess I better start enjoying berry blast more. For real though, keep your dirty hands off my dirty nicotine you creeps. We all know it's bad. Some of us are using it as a crutch to keep the weed at bay and normal tobacco kind of tastes rank.

If someone tries to rip the menthol from my hands they're getting one stubbed in the middle of their best shirt. This is my deal and I like menthol being a part of it.
 

larrybud

Member
Oct 25, 2017
716
So would you have opposed the changes born from the Beveridge Report, which gave the UK a social security safety net and universal healthcare?

Sometimes I despair of the twisted reasoning of Americans. Do you want your taxes to spent on increasing the public welfare, or not?

Twisted reasoning? Reverse universal healthcare? My friend, I simply want to tax those who can afford to be taxed. Not the working class and impoverished, who should be forgiven if they find pleasure in cigarettes.