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What happen to actual Nvidia graphics card upgrades?

FJimbonda

Member
Oct 29, 2017
68
The way things are going the next nvidia cards will be crazy expensive. I'm expecting 3080ti to be something like 2000$

The last ti card I bought is 980ti and even in 2015 it felt a lot. But compared to today and I think I got off easy. I will never spend silly money on a gpu again.
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,866
I wanted to upgrade from my 980Ti before Cyberpunk, but I literally cannot find a card that balances price and performance to my liking. I can either cross my fingers and wait on some mythical $1,500+ 30xx card, or get something like a 2060 Super and hope it carries me through a few years.
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,280
Yes. They’re not only comparable, but far away the better value.

But Nvidia is the bigger brand name that a lot of folks are just going to keep flocking to, regardless of how much they get bent over.
This, it’s insane how much more expensive the Nvidia cards are performance to price wise. I understand wanting bleeding edge tech but I feel like most people aren’t really taking advantage of it or seeing a boost that is good value.

Of course, value is subjective.
 

Dezzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
821
USA
Guess I'll be using my GTX 1080 for a while longer now. Still does well at 1440p 144hz.

AMD is always an option, but you still see mentions about how certain games don't seem to like AMD cards, even if it's not common like it used to be.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,727
Nvidia decided that emerging tech that is giving huge profits, specifically hardware accelerated AI/deep learning, was where to put the new budget for adding transistors this gen. They had to dress it up a bit to make it more appealing to gamers, with obviously mixed to disappointing results thus far.

Each gen with time for engineers to improve efficiency, and use new process tech to increase number of transistors per SKU, you can get a certain predictable increase in raw performance, although you can swing high or low depending on other factors. Say you have to go with a large die and aggressive clocks one gen to maintain competitive footing. Then a process shrink comes along and you have less pressure from the competition. You can choose to do a more direct die shrink without a huge increase in transistor count. Boom, you have a more modest performance leap but a cooler/less power hungry lineup, and more dies per wafer. Alternatively you can go big in the other direction, which makes things more expensive, lower yields, and tougher to power and cool. But maximizes potential performance.

A hypothetical 2060/2070/2080/2080ti with all transistors put towards traditional architecture would have meant a very large uplift in performance, but something like 40% of the die is tensor/RT stuff. They ARE expensive for what you get, especially considering that the RTX portions are useless in most consumer scenarios, but they actually are pretty huge die size and transistor counts. Pascals were pretty small and efficient at each level. Turing does are enormous by comparison, just with almost all of the additional die shrink transistor budget spent on stuff that doesn't get used all that much.

It's actually kind of impressive that it wasn't more of a disaster than it was, but that's the basics of why we saw what we did with 10xx to 20xx.

The good news is that the next gen should see back to normal increases from new process tech and improvements in memory speed and architecture tuning, assuming an equal % of resources used for tensor and RT portions.

Alternatively, a hypothetical 30xx series that also fully abandoned RT/Tensor would see monumental uplift in performance, but that is probably at roughly 0% chance of happening.

Personally, I feel that it was too early to dedicate die space to tensor RT stuff. Even my 2080ti is only meh at RT applications, so it feels like a bit of a waste. But, the gen that started implementation would always be the roughest one, so at least that's out of the way.

5 or 6nm EUV and 2020+ we should see a substantial improvement in performance across the board. Whether or not that means that raytracing or especially DLSS amount to anything worthwhile remains to be seen however.
Well put.

I'd sat raytracing at that point was both too early and too late. Too early because of the ridiculous price and meager performance you get out of it, and too late because at this point developers have honestly mastered the art of tricking us with lighting/shadows/reflections that on the whole look fantastic without being really accurate or "real."
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,915
It really isn’t, and it’s measured in comparisons between GPUs. Price for performance.

Spending over $100 for a few extra frames is poor value.
And people could easily counter that AMD cards are also expensive. And if you're going to spend that much money anyways, why not spend a little more and have RTX? Honestly, performance has been extremely stagnant the past 5 years. The only real reason to upgrade is RTX. Otherwise just roll with what you have and try and wait them out.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,850
i dunno what i'll do if this is the new normal. i every gen i feel i just *have* to have the x80ti but this time i'm all like Larry David "ehh..?" gif

maybe i'll snag up the 2080ti in like six months and just be a gen behind. or settle for the *80 series from now on
 
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Inki

Member
Oct 30, 2017
330
South Carolina
I got a 1080ti 2 years ago, at the earliest I'll upgrade is 2022. I'm also thinking the money AMD is getting from the console manufacturers is really helping their R&D costs for their eventual PC line of graphics cards. I think AMD will be a worthy competitor to Nvidia come 2021.
 

Cookie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,280
It really isn’t, and it’s measured in comparisons between GPUs. Price for performance.

Spending over $100 for a few extra frames is poor value.
That’s true but I was referring to what people value, not solely monetary. Some people would value the extra 10% or whatever even if it’s $500 more. That doesn’t mean it’s good monetary value. I personally think it’s ludicrous to spend so much when you can get a really great card for much cheaper.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,994
Msk / SPb, Russia
Nothing happened.

The time needed to launch a new GPU generation has gotten bigger but this isn't an Nvidia issue, it's a production process scaling and pricing issue and everyone in high performance silicon industry is affected by it in some way.

Also what you got for the last two years is 1080Ti's performance for $400, and I seriously fail to see how this is "almost double the price" from $700 or is a bad upgrade option from some 1070 or 980 even. The market doesn't sit solely on 1080Tis.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,622
Yes. They’re not only comparable, but far away the better value.

But Nvidia is the bigger brand name that a lot of folks are just going to keep flocking to, regardless of how much they get bent over.
It's not so simple. I have thousands of dollars worth of displays that only support VRR from Nvidia cards. There are some pretty big switching costs involved.
 

RoninChaos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,374
i dunno what i'll do if this is the new normal. i every gen i feel i just *have* to have the x80ti but this time i'm all like Larry David "ehh..?" gif

maybe i'll snag up the 2080ti in like six months and just be a gen behind. or settle for the *80 series from now on
I’m with you. Nvidia lost the plot with their price points this time around. And then the bullshit they pulled with the super line a year later? Nah.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,642
I got a 1080ti 2 years ago, at the earliest I'll upgrade is 2022. I'm also thinking the money AMD is getting from the console manufacturers is really helping their R&D costs for their eventual PC line of graphics cards. I think AMD will be a worthy competitor to Nvidia come 2021.
I’m looking forward to seeing AMD’s higher tier cards.
I’m also hopeful that Intel tries to shake things up further, because we really need better prices in the GPU category.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,486
Yes. They’re not only comparable, but far away the better value.

But Nvidia is the bigger brand name that a lot of folks are just going to keep flocking to, regardless of how much they get bent over.
what if you want gsync? or just better gpu performance? or a lot of vram? People know nvidia overprice the shit ouf of their gpus. But AMD has no competition for high end shit, so when you want 4k 60fps at near ultra or 1080p at 120hz . What gpu you gonna get? Better value is an important factor, buts its not end all be all thing
 

SoaringDive

Member
Feb 3, 2019
390
As long as people are willing to buy high end just to crank a couple performance-destroying settings that give a little bit of a better image, Nvidia will continue to price their high end the way they are.

If people were opting out of Nvidia's high end and going for their totally fine midrange (not even jumping over to AMD), Nvidia would have to reduce the price of their high end cards. But as it stands they are happy with the volume they're selling at these prices.

As always, I tell people to stop going for high end because you don't actually need it and you're throwing your money directly into a fire. This applies to nearly all non-work-related tech. Spend the money you save doing this on weed or something more worth your cash.
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,384
As long as people are willing to buy high end just to crank a couple performance-destroying settings that give a little bit of a better image, Nvidia will continue to price their high end the way they are.
After RDR2, I don't know about that. It's been so long since we had a game where ultra brought the highest end card to its knees that people get upset when it does
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,994
Msk / SPb, Russia
As always, I tell people to stop going for high end because you don't actually need it and you're throwing your money directly into a fire.
You're getting higher performance with high end GPUs. It's not as higher as you're paying for these cards of course but I don't see how exactly this is "throwing your money directly into a fire". If someone is okay with paying $1000+ for a new videocard I see no reason for him not to. The fact that you're okay with paying for mid range GPU only doesn't mean that there shouldn't be more expensive and faster options on the market.
 

cjn83

Member
Jul 25, 2018
115
This might have been said already but the RTX cards came at a time when the sport in the graphics market was to make Doom play at 300 fps. I mean I get it, create something which makes my Witcher 3 run at 8k 120Hz etc.

Me? That's just boring. I'm much more excited about something like RTX, and they introduced it at a perfect time. Early in a console generation I think everyone would have been much more interested in simply getting away from 1080p/30.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,691
Im still on a GTX 980 and I havent found a great reason to uograde, can still hit 1080p 60fps on mostly everything at high/ultra mixture.

I would like to upgrade to a card that can easily do 4k60 high/ultra on everything, but it doesn't seem that exists yet for under $1k. That much money for just a GPU is fucking idiotic, so I guess I'll just stay at 1080p 60, still spanking the shit out of my consoles anyway.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,642
what if you want gsync? or just better gpu performance? or a lot of vram? People know nvidia overprice the shit ouf of their gpus. But AMD has no competition for high end shit, so when you want 4k 60fps at near ultra or 1080p at 120hz . What gpu you gonna get? Better value is an important factor, buts its not end all be all thing
Unfortunately Nvidia’s our only option on the high end.
 

Dr. Doom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
242
I miss the days when you could get reasonably powered GPUs for £200-300.

I purchased a 6950 for £200 during the start of the PS3 gen and it was one of the best purchases I made for that price. This was later upgraded to a 970 GTX for a similar price, and again, the performance increases were fantastic.

I went from a 970 GTX to a 2080 RTX for a whopping £560. But then you also have 2080 Tis for DOUBLE the price, which is absolute fucking madness.
 

SoaringDive

Member
Feb 3, 2019
390
You're getting higher performance with high end GPUs. It's not as higher as you're paying for these cards of course but I don't see how exactly this is "throwing your money directly into a fire". If someone is okay with paying $1000+ for a new videocard I see no reason for him not to. The fact that you're okay with paying for mid range GPU only doesn't mean that there shouldn't be more expensive and faster options on the market.
If someone is rich enough that the marginal benefit of a high end GPU is larger than the marginal cost, they're probably too rich to be asking me for GPU advice lol. Nothing wrong with that, but at that point they can throw their money at whatever they want as long as it's not all at casinos or on cocaine. That's the audience who high end tech is for, alongside businesses in which case that's a business expense and you'll be making money from the investment.

I'm not saying high end shouldn't exist, because there's definitely a lot of rich people who can enjoy them. Just that there's a lot of people who should be going mid to get the best bang out of their hard earned-cash but are going high instead. And so Nvidia is happy to raise prices to double what they would be.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,853
USA
Lack of competition from AMD and no competition from consoles. AMD's best cards are the RX 570 and 5700 XT, A $120 and $400 card. Those are the only segments that Nvidia doesn't have a really solid product (1650 is too weak and 2060 super is over priced). Nvidia still wins the $300 and $500 markets with the 1660 ti and the 2070 super. And if you want anything above 1080ti/2080/2070 super level then there's only one choice on the entire market and that's the 2080 ti at a whopping $1000.


TLDR the GPU market is stagnant outside of two segments because of lack of competition.
 

aeolist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,924
what if you want gsync? or just better gpu performance? or a lot of vram? People know nvidia overprice the shit ouf of their gpus. But AMD has no competition for high end shit, so when you want 4k 60fps at near ultra or 1080p at 120hz . What gpu you gonna get? Better value is an important factor, buts its not end all be all thing
there's also the fact that AMD was so bad for so long people are understandably gunshy. if your brand has been in the gutter for years you're not going to start getting market share back the instant you put out a decent mid-range product.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,486
Question. How much should like a top of the line graphics card cost to you guys?
£800 ish. I paid £1200 for asus rog strix 2080 ti, and I knew it's overpriced as fuck. I knew that rtx is first hen and I knew consoles launching next year. But I just wanted new pc for cyberpunk. All I had was shitty laptop and ps4 pro.
 

Isayas

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,453
£800 ish. I paid £1200 for asus rog strix 2080 ti, and I knew it's overpriced as fuck. I knew that rtx is first hen and I knew consoles launching next year. But I just wanted new pc for cyberpunk. All I had was shitty laptop and ps4 pro.
Yea that PS4 Pro and laptop wasn't going to represent CP2077 in the most substantial way, brother.
 

Edgar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,486
Yea that PS4 Pro and laptop wasn't going to represent CP2077 in the most substantial way, brother.
Hopefully cyberpunk will be well optimized. Or at least will have temporal filtering or resolution scaling from the get go. Those things really help me get 4k 60fps at ultra in most games. But even Witcher 3 now running at 4k 60fps uses my gpu about 75-95%, so who knows. We might get RDR2 or control situation
 

Isayas

Member
Jun 10, 2018
1,453
Hopefully cyberpunk will be well optimized. Or at least will have temporal filtering or resolution scaling from the get go. Those things really help me get 4k 60fps at ultra in most games. But even Witcher 3 now running at 4k 60fps uses my gpu about 75-95%, so who knows. We might get RDR2 or control situation
I just think RDR2 is too demanding, not badly optimized. The game looks too excellent, fam.
 

plagiarize

To its ports I have been
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,368
Cape Cod, MA
I think it's pretty obvious that Nvidia should have launched a GTX 2080 Ti (or a 1680 or whatever number they wanted to put on it) alongside the RTX one. They were probably afraid that it'd stunt ray tracing, but with the consoles next year, I doubt it, and ray tracing is going to take off no matter what. I think most of us who bought an RTX card knew we were spending extra not so much for performance but for the promise of new rendering techniques. Those who aren't interested and want a card that doesn't have that RT silicon are just going to buy an AMD card and will be more than happy with it I'm sure, so yeah, Nvidia left a gap in the market there and AMD went for it.

Sounds like AMD have some form of hardware RT acceleration coming soon since both the PS5 and Scarlet seem to have it even if it isn't in their desktop parts yet.

I expect prices will settle down a bit with the next generation of Nvidia and AMD cards, as I expect there'll be more competition again, and Nvidia won't be the only ones in the RT game. Their tech will also have matured and will be cheaper to produce I expect.

For now, the RTX cards are for people like me and Dark1x and Dictator who are as interested in bleeding edge graphical techniques as we are in high framerates (you can be interested in both!), and all that extra silicon (and all the hardware and software development costs that went into the product) pushed up the prices way more than just increasing clock speeds and cuda core counts.

In two or three years, RT acceleration is going to be a must have in any mid to high end GPU, but we aren't there yet.
 

ILikeFeet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,384
Lack of competition from AMD and no competition from consoles. AMD's best cards are the RX 570 and 5700 XT, A $120 and $400 card. Those are the only segments that Nvidia doesn't have a really solid product (1650 is too weak and 2060 super is over priced). Nvidia still wins the $300 and $500 markets with the 1660 ti and the 2070 super. And if you want anything above 1080ti/2080/2070 super level then there's only one choice on the entire market and that's the 2080 ti at a whopping $1000.


TLDR the GPU market is stagnant outside of two segments because of lack of competition.
if you have $500 to burn, you have to really want ray tracing to choose the 2070S over the 5700XT
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,368
Well put.

I'd sat raytracing at that point was both too early and too late. Too early because of the ridiculous price and meager performance you get out of it, and too late because at this point developers have honestly mastered the art of tricking us with lighting/shadows/reflections that on the whole look fantastic without being really accurate or "real."
I think RT and RTX gives us practical ways to keep making better tricks that emulate them. The growth lighting has seen in the last 2 years alone has been staggering to me on the scale and scope of games hack GI or RT is giving us.

Some devs are mixing both elements due to performance concerns.

Full fledge RT isn't here but the mixture of rendering techniques this and last gen are more than welcome as we go on. From Poe or the crew 2 to metro anything with good implementation hack or not gets my vote.
 

TaySan

Member
Dec 10, 2018
6,024
Ampere better be that upgrade. Kinda tired of my Titan X Pascal. I want something new to upgrade too....
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
212
I really hate this type of attitude. The only thing you’re missing here is a 🤔
It's dismissive of Nvidia's other offerings yes, but it's not that far off. The 5700/XT are indeed a better value for equivalent Nvidia offers for the vast majority of games (I think the compromises you have to make in res/performance for ray tracing in the few games where it has an impact are too great in that price segment), and Nvidia has massive brand recognition. Odd post to get upset over.