What I actually said on Kotaku Splitscreen about the PlayStation 5's specs

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
1,426
Some of the technical specifics are over my head, but one example is the APIs. I've talked to some engineers who aren't huge fans of Microsoft's DirectX and have grown much fonder of Sony's approach over the past few years, with PS4 and now even more so with PS5.
Lead engine programmer at ID software confirmed.

He's Vulkan enthusiast :)
 

jbug617

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,016
Sony really should had done some demo videos like MS did with the Series X. At least you can see it in action even if it's not optimized.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,836
Some of the technical specifics are over my head, but one example is the APIs. I've talked to some engineers who aren't huge fans of Microsoft's DirectX and have grown much fonder of Sony's approach over the past few years, with PS4 and now even more so with PS5.
I think there was a running assumption that MS's APIs had been improving wrt performance vs Sony's, but maybe that wasn't entirely accurate. I wonder if this is the same 'compatibility vs performance' approach as last gen. That could be a little twist in the tale in terms of paper and real performance.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,432
But meanwhile, the people I've been talking to over the past few months and the past couple years who are actually working on the PlayStation have pretty much unanimously all said: This thing is a beast. This thing is one of the coolest pieces of hardware that we've ever seen, we've ever used before. There are so many things here that are revolutionary, so many behind-the-scenes tools and features, APIs, and all sorts of other stuff that is way beyond my scope of comprehension. This is why I'm a reporter, and not an engineer.
If this isn't exciting to hear, I don't know what is ! Thanks a lot for the transcript o/
 

MrPink

Member
Oct 27, 2017
785
jschreier

Thanks for posting the entire transcript, I found the discussion very informative listening earlier today.

Related to the marketing and messaging in general. Do you have any more info by chance on the PS4 backwards compatibility situation? A ton of confusion on whether BC is currently limited to the 100-ish titles that Sony alluded to or whether that was just a sample size to determine the overall results of how BC is going (or even if it's referring to a PS5 enhanced boost mode). Just curious if you heard anything more or not.
 
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ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
USA
Good stuff jschreier. This is hopefully how things will spiral out of control less. Admittedly, I latched onto that quote in the now-locked thread and got an unfunny quip in, which isn't like me. Thanks for helping me check myself. Admittedly not in the best headspace these past couple weeks due to the obvious.
 

Philippo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,890
Milan, Italy
Great job with the transcript Jason, sorry you have to keep up with bullshit from other users.

I agree on most points, especially on the parity aspects and that the PS5 itself has some bomb unique characteristics, although personally I think the damage yesterday's event did to the PS5 brand is being a little overblown and the narrative will change a lot as soon as the first 1st party titles and sequels will start being shown.

I am really, really hyped for next-gen but man, the negativity and eagerness to attack a lot of folks have is starting to wear down on my enthusiasm...
 

turboviolence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
178
I think it's worth reiterating what I said in that trash fire of a thread earlier:
Sure the specs are out there, but let's face it. Computer and graphics hardware is complicated stuff, specs only tell part of the story. On top of that there is software in between games and that hardware that is another whole part of the performance/development ease equations. We do know that both of these consoles are theoretically beastly. Only once we start seeing games built specifically for them will we know which design decisions really paid off in the end.

The only people that really know for sure are the engine programmers that have experience with both machines, and let's face it, they're probably testing the new features for the future's awesome games (I am so envious), and not posting much on twitter/forums.
Oh and thanks Jason, for clearing this up. I had the Splitscreen podcast queued up to get the context for myself!
 

TimStone

Banned
Jan 28, 2020
161
Jason,

You make it sound like the Xbox has a hard drive or something (Hard drives are vastly slower). You sound like a cool Sony fan that doesn't have the technical knowledge to know the differences and that's fine. The Xbox Series X has a FAST NVME SSD (Not as fast as the PS5), but it's not a hard drive. The PS5 will be faster of course, but that's not a game changer by itself.

For example... If you have something like RAM that can have latency in Nanoseconds (NS), that's going to make a big deal rather than something in Milliseconds (MS). NVME drives have latency in Milliseconds, so while they are much faster, they are not radical game changers compared to something like main memory.

Sony's own solution isn't radically different than Microsoft's, it's just faster, but it's not MS to NS faster. Microsoft has virtual ram using their method and so that can act as almost like a ramdisk that can stream in new content at will which allows you to have a lot more memory than 16 Gigabytes.

Both consoles are not fully finished yet and we will see the results by the end of this year.

I just don't see how in the world the SSD speed alone between the two is going to make much difference to be honest. I mean if the Xbox had a hard drive and thus no virtual memory, then sure the PS5 would cleanup on the storage front easily and be able to do things Xbox couldn't do, but that's simply not the case here.

I tried to explain why I had felt that the "insiders" were all wrong about the PS5 power and they were. Not because of lies or anything, but because they are not technical people. I would like to see more journalists become more technical so they can hold these companies to be honest with their marketing.

Anyway, that's my thoughts about it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
193
Sony really should had done some demo videos like MS did with the Series X. At least you can see it in action even if it's not optimized.


They will in time.. This is where context is important. The Audience this was created for, developers, understand that stuff. Many of us, we dont, we need to see video examples to know what they are really talking about. I think Sony would have been better off to float something out there for gamers, non technical types, in addition to, this reveal for developers. I think that is one of the biggest flaws in this presentation is presenting a technical reveal for developers before presenting something more basic for gamers.
 

Gero

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,845
sounds really good, still bummed about the way they revealed the console but the PS5 indeed sounds like a really capable machine
 

JigglesBunny

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,433
Chicago
Earlier today, someone made a truly awful transcript based on a lengthy conversation jschreier had on the Kotaku Splitscreen podcast by transcribing it and it could lead to 12 pages of truly embarrassing discourse. Since nobody has commented and reacted while still not actually listening to the episode, and since the thread's creator did such a piss-poor job of correcting this error, I took the time to type out a correction to the incorrect information in the transcript. Here you go.

I remember Battlefield 4 was out on both systems and it was running at 1080p on one and 900p on the other. There were just these numerical ways you could say well here's the same game running on both, and they could only get it running this well and not the other.
Battlefield 4 actually ran at 720p on Xbox One and 900p on PS4. Just downright embarrassing stuff.
/s, obviously. Love ya, Jason.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,441
Some of the technical specifics are over my head, but one example is the APIs. I've talked to some engineers who aren't huge fans of Microsoft's DirectX and have grown much fonder of Sony's approach over the past few years, with PS4 and now even more so with PS5.
With the system being this close things like API , how the engine done or even what tricks they use can make a difference .
Really looking forward to see what devs going to do on both systems when they get fully into them.
 

Rion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,695
As soon as Guerrilla or Santa Monica or Insomniac show a built from the ground up PS5 exclusive, everything will change. Especially with Xbox first party developers still mostly designing early gen games around and shackled by the Jaguar / standard HDD's from the base Xbox One.

Some PS5 exclusives will look a generational leap over most Xbox Series X exclusives imo because of the above and Sony's design philosophy shift based around their insane SSD technology. Suddenly no one will care about specs.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
1,426
jschreier

But jason knowing that the SX goes up to 4.8GB / s in compression, do you really think that PS5 exclusive games taking full advantage of the console SSD could not run on SX?


Frankly sometimes it is as if the SX was still on HDD, with the Nvme techno the Go / s become less and less important and it is where it is important to have a Hardware / Software SSD Solution.

Did you hear some dev feedback on the new Xbox velocity architecture and especially the DirectStorage?
 

tutomos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,197
Imagine if Sony can get the marketing right, they will control the conversation on which console is more powerful.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,929
Msk / SPb, Russia
Lead engine programmer at ID software confirmed.

He's Vulkan enthusiast :)
Many console devs prefer Sony's approach at providing a much lower lever h/w access as this allow them to push stuff out of the same h/w which would be impossible to do through a more walled off higher level API like DX on Xbox.

That being said, I doubt that many users are happy about PS5 not being able to fully support all PS4 games at launch and about the complete lack of support for earlier PS titles - which is a direct result of Sony's insistence on providing very low level h/w access in their consoles.

And as for performance, with what is essentially 99% similar underlying h/w (with the exception of 100% custom parts of course) you don't really get a lot from this low level h/w access, especially in engines made to run on several platforms (multiplatform titles). So I feel that this is a net negative more than a positive when it comes to a modern gaming console consumer qualities.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
1,426
As soon as Guerrilla or Santa Monica or Insomniac show a built from the ground up PS5 exclusive, everything will change. Especially with Xbox first party developers still mostly designing early gen games around and shackled by the Jaguar / standard HDD's from the base Xbox One.

Some PS5 exclusives will look a generational leap over most Xbox Series X exclusives imo because of the above and Sony's design philosophy shift around their insane SSD technology then suddenly no one will care about specs.

We will see but I firmly believe that Godfall could run on OG PS4.
 

Isayas

Member
Jun 10, 2018
2,551
Lord Jason has spoken. My software engineer friend broke it down to me to a T. The PS5 will be amazing always been.
 

ez123

Member
Feb 18, 2020
102
I personally do not feel that the transcript changes anything.

"I'm getting texts even today from developers being like this is such a shame -- the PS5 is superior in all these other ways that they're not able to message right now" is what it is and nothing about seeing the full context changes that.

Either way, spec sheets have always been good indicators of capability, have they not?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,328
Jason,

You make it sound like the Xbox has a hard drive or something (Hard drives are vastly slower). You sound like a cool Sony fan that doesn't have the technical knowledge to know the differences and that's fine. The Xbox Series X has a FAST NVME SSD (Not as fast as the PS5), but it's not a hard drive. The PS5 will be faster of course, but that's not a game changer by itself.

For example... If you have something like RAM that can have latency in Nanoseconds (NS), that's going to make a big deal rather than something in Milliseconds (MS). NVME drives have latency in Milliseconds, so while they are much faster, they are not radical game changers compared to something like main memory.

Sony's own solution isn't radically different than Microsoft's, it's just faster, but it's not MS to NS faster. Microsoft has virtual ram using their method and so that can act as almost like a ramdisk that can stream in new content at will which allows you to have a lot more memory than 16 Gigabytes.

Both consoles are not fully finished yet and we will see the results by the end of this year.

I just don't see how in the world the SSD speed alone between the two is going to make much difference to be honest. I mean if the Xbox had a hard drive and thus no virtual memory, then sure the PS5 would cleanup on the storage front easily and be able to do things Xbox couldn't do, but that's simply not the case here.

I tried to explain why I had felt that the "insiders" were all wrong about the PS5 power and they were. Not because of lies or anything, but because they are not technical people. I would like to see more journalists become more technical so they can hold these companies to be honest with their marketing.

Anyway, that's my thoughts about it.
He's not a Sony fan, he's reporting on what he's hearing, you all need to stop throwing accusations for the dumbest stuff.
 
Oct 27, 2017
171
Thank you for making this thread. I think people are going crazy because we have all these numbers but nothing to show for it. Once we actually see some games, the attention of the community will focus on that. I can’t believe the consoles are launching later this year and the only true nextgen game we’ve seen so far was Hellblade 2. And I guess godfall...
 

Naga

Member
Aug 29, 2019
5,070
Yeah, that's really different from what the other thread was trying to pass off as information.
And of course the PS5 is "a beast" compared to the PS4.

Any platform with a modern GPU, a good CPU (that gen was awful on that side) and any SSD (the super PS5 model or the "regular" XSX one) is a massive improvement over that gen. Including the X1X.
Any dev would be happy with that, even with a platform weaker than the PS5.
 

chiu7

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
27
User banned (permanent): Trolling. Account in junior phase.
You're a really great SONY fan, and SONY should let you do the marketing.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,071
Jason,

You make it sound like the Xbox has a hard drive or something (Hard drives are vastly slower). You sound like a cool Sony fan that doesn't have the technical knowledge to know the differences and that's fine. The Xbox Series X has a FAST NVME SSD (Not as fast as the PS5), but it's not a hard drive. The PS5 will be faster of course, but that's not a game changer by itself.

For example... If you have something like RAM that can have latency in Nanoseconds (NS), that's going to make a big deal rather than something in Milliseconds (MS). NVME drives have latency in Milliseconds, so while they are much faster, they are not radical game changers compared to something like main memory.

Sony's own solution isn't radically different than Microsoft's, it's just faster, but it's not MS to NS faster. Microsoft has virtual ram using their method and so that can act as almost like a ramdisk that can stream in new content at will which allows you to have a lot more memory than 16 Gigabytes.

Both consoles are not fully finished yet and we will see the results by the end of this year.

I just don't see how in the world the SSD speed alone between the two is going to make much difference to be honest. I mean if the Xbox had a hard drive and thus no virtual memory, then sure the PS5 would cleanup on the storage front easily and be able to do things Xbox couldn't do, but that's simply not the case here.

I tried to explain why I had felt that the "insiders" were all wrong about the PS5 power and they were. Not because of lies or anything, but because they are not technical people. I would like to see more journalists become more technical so they can hold these companies to be honest with their marketing.

Anyway, that's my thoughts about it.
On the other hand, it is also fairly easy to see how the difference in TF won't necessarily amount to much...I mean what is it effectively? The difference between 1800p and 2160p? Add in reconstruction...I think there is a good argument to made that real world differences to these will be less than pretty much any comparables of systems for the past two generations. In contrast to that, the SSD on PS5 could give it some gains in exclusive software. Not that the SSD in the XSX won't be able to replicate, just not as fast.
 

Jerm411

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,732
Imagine if Sony can get the marketing right, they will control the conversation on which console is more powerful.
I actually find the messaging from here on out to be super interesting...I think it'll def. be power vs. speed at the top level.

I'm glad both consoles are just different enough to push different things.
 

tutomos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,197
Pretty sure MS can just advertise as the mist powerful or jet they’d games and 3rd parties speak for themselves.
Like they did with Xbox One X? Not sure about 3rd party will speak for them yet.

Plus this quote:

"At the end of the day, that is fundamentally the big question -- when Assassin's Creed Kingdom, or whatever it's called, Assassin's Creed Vikings comes out this fall, presumably, corona aside. Presumably it comes out this fall on both Xbox Series X and PlayStation 5 -- which one will it look better on, which one will have a better resolution and better framerate on? I don't think we can know the answer to that question just from the spec sheet, and that's the point I'm making. "
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
1,456
Italy
Interesting that you think the messaging that Xbox is stronger could be a fatal flaw for PlayStation.

Sony need to have a good showing or the messaging will only get worse
There won't be any "fatal" flaws for Playstation.
It will still sell like pancakes, and even surpass XSX eventually just because it's called "Playstation 5" , and because of the great gen PS4 had overall, no matter how much they are mismanaging current communication and marketing.

At next round tho, Xbox will just be again the most powerful gaming console like OG Xbox and X360 era, even if not by an huge margin, and everyone should just deal with this and let it sink in already without being delusional later on.

With that said, NO One is arguing that we all can still expect PS5 exclusives to be incredible and also a bit more innovative on paper thanks to the superior I/O speed, and this alone may be a reason to pick the console compared to competitors for many.

Others will prefer the basically already guaranteed superior third party games performance on XSX, and Microsoft new 1st party line-up, it's full BC with Xbox One console family and Gamepass.

Some will just get them both for all the reason above. :)

There are no actual reason to fear a flop in sales for any of the two.
I'm actually expecting a great competition once again, and we as gamers are the first to benefit from this.

Great times are ahead indeed (as soon as this f*ING COVID-19 will be eradicated from Planet Earth once and for all, damn!)
 

Bane

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,211
After reading that thread I put all next gen threads on ignore so I appreciate a new thread being made by the quoted to set things right and call out the horrible job the original OP did. Maybe being called on shit like this will deter people from doing so somewhat going forward (not likely, I know).
 

Transistor

The Walnut King
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
14,190
Washington, D.C.
Jason, that was amazing. Thank you for clearing it up and great work on providing the transcript. Both boxes sound absolutely amazing and both have their strengths. I can't wait to get my hands on them.
 

FireWarrior

Member
Oct 25, 2017
929
Not sure multiplat games will be able to take advantage of that, yeah. I think the advantages of the SSD speed will be most apparent in PS5 exclusive open-world games. I think developers are still trying to figure out what they can do there, but I think it can fundamentally change the way they design those kinds of games.
from what i understand of ssd performance on pcs, random read/write speeds are more important for gaming and from what benchmarks i can find, unless its a intel optane which are over $1000, even a $200 nvme drive has only about a small advantage over a sata ssd in random read/write speeds

its hard to see the ps5 drive having a big gap over the drive in the xbox series x in random read/write while being affordable
 
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Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,557
That thread seemed nuts. Was trying to stay out of it.

Thanks Jason! Appreciate your work as always.

Very interesting to hear the perspective of the devs you’ve talked to.