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Oct 25, 2017
4,716
So this is something I thought of the other day. Almost all major game communities now are exceedingly vocal about the game balancing or design in some way or another. I guess it's almost the given now, where if you play an MP game enough you'll end up complaining about it at some point.

So my question to you is, what current communities at large seem happy with the game they're currently playing in it current form? Because in the past it seemed like more people were happier with what they got and the devs meddled much less. I get that the advent of broadband internet means that deploying update and patches was much more feasible, but it's not like it was unheard of in the 90s and early 2000s.

Three big examples I can think of from the past are:
Quake 3 Arena: According to everyone who played it in its heyday it's "the perfect arena FPS". There really isn't much I can even say here, the game as is is basically FPS game gospel, and seemingly has always been. But it's entirely possible I just didn't interact with the community enough to learn about the flaws people complained about.

Halo 2 multiplayer: I don't remember a single person who played halo 2 wishing something was different about the game in a very vocal way, I think the only recurring complaint I saw was that the way the lock on rockets worked basically made you a dead man in vehicles no matter what, but other than that it seems like almost everyone was extremely happy with the game throughout its entire life time.

Starcraft Broodwar: This game is on a hell of a pedestal, to suggest changes be made to it at any point is essentially heresy. The community is no longer that massive around this game, even with the remaster having released recently but everyone holds the game in such high regard you might think it's perfect. Even if there are glaring play-ability flaws like being only able to select a handful of the units you can have on screen at a time, but people will just say the game is balanced around it and you just have to "git gud".

It really seems like we don't really get games like that anymore, even dark souls has so many people talking about how the game should be instead of how it is, especially with regards to pvp.

What causes popular games to attract so many arm chair developers now more than they used to? Is it that the internet has grown to such a degree that people can get on a soapbox much easier and attract like minded individuals they would never have interacted with otherwise?
 

Raptomex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,249
I think for some people, it's just nostalgia. There are things people get used to. It's very possible the game they love so much was the first of its kind and the sequels changed or butchered many concepts they grew accustom to.
 

Hawky

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
234
Abu Dhabi, UAE
For those people, any changes that could change their favorite games in terms of weapons, abilities, etc... worries them. And I get their point

There's a reason why players deride balance changes, because most of the time it makes things worse for the game than making it better.
 
OP
OP
Not Spaceghost
Oct 25, 2017
4,716
Yeah nostalgia could definitely be a major fact there, you're more inclined to remember past things more fondly than they actually were lol. Another possibility is that these people don't just complain about something if there isn't a lot of passion behind it right? At least that's the assumption, people who complain heavily and vocally about how the game could be better must on some level be doing it because they love the game and want to see it succeed?
 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
As long as I remember playing online games I remember people complaining about balance. I sincerely don't know this world of the past you're talking about.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,964
Mostly just people saying "It's so simple, why didn't they think of THIS" when there's a 100% chance the developers did in fact think of your stupid idea.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
I haven't heard active complaints for:

Counterstrike
Titanfall 2
PUBG

I think that it's natural to criticise or have different ideas about things that you spend time with, a contributing factor is how much time you spend with a game. I also think that this happens with long running TV shows.

When someone spends 200+ hours on something they feel like an expert, regardless of not having experience creating that content.
 

Stuart

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
785
Using your 3 examples: Quake 3, Halo 3, Starcraft - these games were all balanced around skilled players. Now games are balanced for the lowest common denominator. It's not "nostalgia", some games were objectively superior to the modern AAA efforts.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,006
Feedback is good, always, and now more than ever people provide feedback on the entertainment they enjoy... Providing critical feedback for something can be part of how people enjoy something. As forms of entertainment mature, criticism of it becomes more common and videogames seem to be catching up with books, film, and music in that regard.

For a forum like this one, a gaming enthusiast forum, it makes a lot of sense that there'd be a strong critical focus. And beyond gaming forums, YouTube channels like SuperBunnyHop and the other channels that critique and analyze elements in videogames are created (and consumed) because it's something that people enjoy about videogames. Given that videogames are a form of entertainment, there's no right way to enjoy them, and if somebody enjoys talking about games as much as they enjoy playing them (or more!), then that's not wrong.

I also generally think the phrase "armchair developers" is dismissive of the importance of feedback during (and after) development. I'm a software developer, I make software that people use. The people who use my software are (for the most part) not software developers themselves. That doesn't mean that the feedback that they have on my software is invalid, and if anything, it makes their feedback more valid. All feedback is good feedback, and it's up to the development and production teams to focus on what they want to implement in their games.

To add to that list, though, simulation games like Madden or WWE 2K bring out a lot of criticism, because the people playing the games are really into the source material (the NFL or pro wrestling) and they have a lot of good feedback on how features can/should be implemented.
 
OP
OP
Not Spaceghost
Oct 25, 2017
4,716
I guess a side tangent on this discussion is if it's even possible to play a game and enjoy it without sitting there and offering your 2 cents every time something you disagree with happens? People don't do this with sports so why does it happen in esports all the time lol. Like that's a super reductive statement to make.

Counterstrike
Titanfall 2
PUBG

These are actually pretty good examples I missed of the general population being pretty happy with the game they have and not too many people going online and making video essays about the problems. Though I do think a sizable portion of PUBG's playerbase wishes circles worked differently but that's so minor compared to people sitting down and telling the devs how they should make the game lol.
 

Datajoy

use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,081
Angola / Zaire border region.
I dunno, I think its ok to be critical of something without being called an "armchair developer". I wouldn't read a piece of Roger Ebert film criticism and think "He is just being an 'armchair director.' " Just because you couldn't make a given product yourself, doesn't mean you can't be critical of someone else's product.

EDIT:
Feedback is good, always, and now more than ever people provide feedback on the entertainment they enjoy... Providing critical feedback for something can be part of how people enjoy something. As forms of entertainment mature, criticism of it becomes more common and videogames seem to be catching up with books, film, and music in that regard.

For a forum like this one, a gaming enthusiast forum, it makes a lot of sense that there'd be a strong critical focus. And beyond gaming forums, YouTube channels like SuperBunnyHop and the other channels that critique and analyze elements in videogames are created (and consumed) because it's something that people enjoy about videogames. Given that videogames are a form of entertainment, there's no right way to enjoy them, and if somebody enjoys talking about games as much as they enjoy playing them (or more!), then that's not wrong.

I also generally think the phrase "armchair developers" is dismissive of the importance of feedback during (and after) development. I'm a software developer, I make software that people use. The people who use my software are (for the most part) not software developers themselves. That doesn't mean that the feedback that they have on my software is invalid, and if anything, it makes their feedback more valid. All feedback is good feedback, and it's up to the development and production teams to focus on what they want to implement in their games.

To add to that list, though, simulation games like Madden or WWE 2K bring out a lot of criticism, because the people playing the games are really into the source material (the NFL or pro wrestling) and they have a lot of good feedback on how features can/should be implemented.
Yes I think you've nailed the sentiment I was aiming for.
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
I think the majority of "core" gamers are now adult millenials. We grew up with games, we've got experience and expectations. Most of us now have jobs as well so we're buying our own games rather than waiting for presents or having our parents buy them for us. I feel like when you buy things with your own money you're more likely to complain.

Aside from this, games have gotten more "accepted" since the 90's. So online communities grew, people agreed on good and bad things. When something comes along to challenge those beliefs or change them of course people will slide into derision.

That's my basic summation lol. I don't think the majority of complainers do it to annoy on purpose or even elicit response. We're digital natives these days and the internet is the perfect void to just vent.
 
OP
OP
Not Spaceghost
Oct 25, 2017
4,716
Feedback is good, always, and now more than ever people provide feedback on the entertainment they enjoy... Providing critical feedback for something can be part of how people enjoy something. As forms of entertainment mature, criticism of it becomes more common and videogames seem to be catching up with books, film, and music in that regard.

For a forum like this one, a gaming enthusiast forum, it makes a lot of sense that there'd be a strong critical focus. And beyond gaming forums, YouTube channels like SuperBunnyHop and the other channels that critique and analyze elements in videogames are created (and consumed) because it's something that people enjoy about videogames. Given that videogames are a form of entertainment, there's no right way to enjoy them, and if somebody enjoys talking about games as much as they enjoy playing them (or more!), then that's not wrong.

I also generally think the phrase "armchair developers" is dismissive of the importance of feedback during (and after) development. I'm a software developer, I make software that people use. The people who use my software are (for the most part) not software developers themselves. That doesn't mean that the feedback that they have on my software is invalid, and if anything, it makes their feedback more valid. All feedback is good feedback, and it's up to the development and production teams to focus on what they want to implement in their games.

To add to that list, though, simulation games like Madden or WWE 2K bring out a lot of criticism, because the people playing the games are really into the source material (the NFL or pro wrestling) and they have a lot of good feedback on how features can/should be implemented.

You're right that feedback is always good but that's not exactly what I was referring to but that's my fault because I never made it clear. See I'm not talking about the people who go on forums and say "hey I don't really like how this plays out because of X maybe Y would be better?" I'm talking about the people who go into forums and actively push their vision of the game being the supreme vision of the game. Kind of like how the overwatch community has just pushed really bad ideas on blizzard and blizzard felt pressured to do them because their community was in uproar. For example the early McCree nerf and the recent hog nerf were both major complaints put in by the fan base that crippled both of those heroes to the point that it took a couple patches for the heroes to finally start to feel more correct. I guess that's a separate argument though since that's more about communities pressuring developers into action when action doesnt need to be taken. But refusing to take action will anger the community into being highly toxic.
 

ShinkuTachi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,873
Is it that the internet has grown to such a degree that people can get on a soapbox much easier and attract like minded individuals they would never have interacted with otherwise?

I think this really hits the nail on the head with that question. Anyone with an internet connection can get on a soapbox.


You're right that feedback is always good but that's not exactly what I was referring to but that's my fault because I never made it clear. See I'm not talking about the people who go on forums and say "hey I don't really like how this plays out because of X maybe Y would be better?" I'm talking about the people who go into forums and actively push their vision of the game being the supreme vision of the game. Kind of like how the overwatch community has just pushed really bad ideas on blizzard and blizzard felt pressured to do them because their community was in uproar. For example the early McCree nerf and the recent hog nerf were both major complaints put in by the fan base that crippled both of those heroes to the point that it took a couple patches for the heroes to finally start to feel more correct. I guess that's a separate argument though since that's more about communities pressuring developers into action when action doesnt need to be taken. But refusing to take action will anger the community into being highly toxic.

Thank you very much for clarifying.
 
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Snefer

Creative Director at Neon Giant
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
340
I would say thats just how people work. Go watch some MMA, sports, whatever at a bar, people complaining about the defence being all wrong, how they use the players wrong, wrong lineup, etc etc. People like to think they know better.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,107
Mostly just people saying "It's so simple, why didn't they think of THIS" when there's a 100% chance the developers did in fact think of your stupid idea.
This right here. Pretty much every criticism fans of a game were already discussed 100 times over by the devs.

That said, it's natural for passionate fans of a medium to take interest in the design principles and consider ways things could be changed.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
When I was younger I remember being able to give and find plenty of reviews, opinions and recommendations that varied based on certain reservations or how greatly appreciated they were.

Nowadays it seems that there are large communities that don't understand nuance. As an example, even though I disagree with it, there is a very vocal number of people who say that the Witcher 3 combat is shit. Not average, not decent, not flawed, just completely utter shit. As a justification those people tend to point towards Dark Souls as the standard bearer whereas me, despite enjoy Dark Souls and its sequels/prequel immensely and playing hundreds of hours of them still found the Witcher 3 combat to be simplistic but enjoyable and I'd even say it feels more organic and natural that Dark Souls' almost clockwise precise and "stiffer" feel.

We're living in an age where it's hard to find nuance in discussions and opinions and that reflects to almost all aspects of our society, not just games.
 

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,730
Back then you could simply disable OP, unbalanced stuff. These days with matchmaking, lack of mod support and all, you have no choice but to get vocal about broken shit.

But tbh the state you described has never existed. I'm sure Starcraft wasn't born the way it is now, but was patched a million times to achieve that balance.
And it totally doesn't matter whether you are a developer of the game or an "armchair developer" - good balancing requires lots of playtesting, which means that knowledge about how it should be is obviously gained mostly through ... well.. playing the game.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,105
I think that back then, you didn't have the options that we have today to express our opinions in such a broad scale, so is easier to find people who don't like the balance of a game which also tend to be the most vocal. Also, thanks to social media, is easier to show the world what thing is broken in a game with facts, like a video for example. Finally, since know you can have way more information of the game, there will be bigger gaps of skills than before, so you will be matched more easily with people with higher skill, and one will probably start complain about how broken is X thing instead of saying that the other guy was way better than you
 
Oct 27, 2017
334
The Ether
I haven't heard active complaints for:

Counterstrike
Titanfall 2
PUBG

I think that it's natural to criticise or have different ideas about things that you spend time with, a contributing factor is how much time you spend with a game. I also think that this happens with long running TV shows.

When someone spends 200+ hours on something they feel like an expert, regardless of not having experience creating that content.

The reason Titanfall 2 has moved towards Titanfall 1 (including most of the free maps) is because the community hated the changes they made in map design (3 lane maps) and game modes.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,414
The Dota 2 Community seems generally pretty happy with the balance. Not about everything and not always (especially when new things are introduced) but it feels like the playerbase trusts the balancing team to make the right calls.


However, if you've played online games long enough, you know devs aren't all knowing entities that know better everytime. Game balance is finnicky and hard. Bad patches and balance changes happen all the time and sometimes it's the community that has it right.

Especially in bigger games, there's plenty of constructive suggestions next to all the rage. And people dedicated to stretch the mechanics in ways devs couldn't have forseen. When 100'000s or even millions of people try to find every exploit there is to gain an advantage they'll find stuff quicker than any testing team ever could.
 
Last edited:

Primate Ryan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
603
If things have changed, there are probably several reasons one could point to. One of the problems is that information is shared so fast right now. In many games it doesn't take long for a meta to take hold (or a new meta after a patch). And then people either pick the meta stuff all the time, leading to a lack of diversity, or if they don't they get complaints from their team, because they didn't pick the over-powered option. It doesn't matter if you are good with that particular hero or whatever.

Which leads to another point. Many current competitive games have some kind of hero system or unlocks or a weapon and skill kit that you need to pick in advance. There will almost always be overpowered options in these games, because properly balancing hundreds of variables is just not viable. This wasn't as prevalent in older games, in which players would enter the battlefield on even footing.

Matchmaking also adds to the equation, because players will get matched against players of somewhat equal skill, which, especially at higher levels of play, forces them to go for the OP option because they are playing at a disadvantage otherwise. This wasn't really the case with server browsers, which allowed players of all skill levels to play together.

But even then I remember discussions about spawn points, unfair maps and skins that were too hard to spot compared to others.
 

jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,489
Well major releases have more eyes on them so naturally they have more vocal critics as well.

And if it's a established franchise then there's the problem of what each individual expects the series to be, see: Final Fantasy