• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,315
The Stussining
Games are moving towards technology breakthroughs in graphics at a snails pace. Whitepapers on new techniques that have been written years ago are just now seeing the light of day. I propose that the overall hardware design is holding games back. The 2D screen-space computations have several disadvantages and it's glaringly obvious that game companies are just trying to brute-force their way into more passes instead of discussing architecture that is optimized for true 3D computations with the hardware vendors.

Today's comments of "this is the most beautiful game so far" has become a purely subjective comment with no real basis for "why" it is. Almost every game that comes out (exclusive or multiplatform) have the same technology that fails to push graphics quality higher. Here is a following list of things that are problematic with games today:

SSR (scree-space reflections) - never match the quality of texture maps and disappears when camera isn't viewing the shiny object, or attenuated out of the material based on distance.
Hair - this is just at a standstill today. No real triangle tessellation of hair primitives which automatically makes the shader look bad.
Global Illumination - heavy use of light probes break the 'physically-based shader' marketing hype word. You see assets that "glow" in shadow when they shouldn't even be lit at all (i.e. AC, W3, HZD, UC4, etc..). Hellblade (UE4)/Wolf 2 (iDTech6) addresses this with precomputed accurate GI light mapping.
Ambient Occlusion - nearly every game out uses a 2D hack that breaks down when viewed under different lighting conditions or too expensive to raycast (i.e. Uncharted's capsule technique).
FX - still a big problem for highly detailed textured transparent cards. Water has made tremendous strides but this is only seen in very few games (i.e. Assassin's Creed)
Volumes - still look like a 2D post-effect.
Skin - only done properly in cutscenes. Literally every other game uses a crude approximation that makes parts of the skin glow or they turn it off completely.
Shadows - this is a big one! Ignoring that the shadows themselves have really low resolution, there aren't enough lights casting them at all. This destroys the scene and breaks energy conserving materials that should receive attenuated light or no light at all due to the geometry blocking the light source. Wolf 2 is the only game I know of that addresses this with at least limiting the area of influence with lights and making sure that the system isn't overloaded with multiply shadow-casters. Assassin's Creed: Origins (all the time) and The Order 1886 (in one scene only) also address this with allowing 2 shadow-casting light sources in any given frame.
LOD systems - not enough VRAM on graphics boards breaks this severely. I have only seen a handful of games that mask this problem (i.e. UC4).
Displacement mapping - this is needed to break the low-polygon count assets within a game but it seems like the bandwidth (even on a 1080Ti) is still several generations away from materializing.
Normal mapping - We are just now getting textures that are high-res enough to appreciate, but the normal maps that determine the "bumps" on surfaces remains orders of magnitude smaller than their texture equivalents. This is due to bandwidth limitations again as you really need to compute full 32-bit float values for lighting to be accurate. A lot of textures just look "muddied" because of this when viewing up close.
Deferred Rendering - this tech needs to die IMO. It only allows masking the problem and brute forcing multiple passes into 2D framebuffers that promote continued use of old 2D lighting/shading pipeline. All the while breaking transparency objects in the process and while allowing multiple light sources on the screen, none of them ever cast shadows, so it doesn't fix the problem.


In conclusion: I would like to see more movement to address the limited 2D compute paradigm. Hellblade (using UE4 and Enlighten), Wolfenstein 2 (iDTech 6) and AC:O (latest Unity Engine) addresses some of the more important issues with light and shadow but we have a long way to go before we see any hardware truly looking 'next-gen'.

Thread posted on behalf of VFX_Veteran from the adopt a user thread.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,223
Spain
LOD and popping are things I want to see severely improved.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Clipping

I have no idea why this hasn't been fixed yet, I don't see how it could be that hard? After all this time I mean. (but I'm not a programmer, so I don't really know)
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
Clipping

I have no idea why this hasn't been fixed yet, I don't see how it could be that hard? After all this time I mean. (but I'm not a programmer, so I don't really know)

If something is an issue in every single game out there, you can assume it's hard to get right.
 

VFX_Veteran

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,003
I know this is a short reply to the OP. But as you even states this is largely down to performance issues. And what's the point in doing a more accurate method if the performance impact is a lot higher. We are working with limited time resources here so speed of the effect will usually trump quality when it comes to working out what method to use.

I get that. But that shouldn't stop a company from implementing the status quo for years and years. We need to look at at least 1-2 of these and come up with some innovation. As hardware increases in power, we should start to see some of these issues addressed. Lighting is a big issue. If it's too complex of a problem right now, how about working on more geometry to decrease the polygonal edges that we see?
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I'm like... Enough with the graphics already. It's like someone who won't stop checking the mirror before going out. "You look great,! Let's go!"


That said...

I could go for more physics flourishes and animation like cloth and foliage and such.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
I just want to see lighting, shaders, and physics continue to improve in future generations. I think we're almost (not quite, but close) at a point where the base materials are sufficient enough, but those still have a long way to go.

Stylistic variety in Western AAA games.
1796.jpg
 

Ryouji Gunblade

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
4,151
California
I want to see player reflections in all or most shiny surfaces. It will never stop being weird seeing no spartan when staring at hard chrome forerunner stuff.
 

John Caboose

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,199
Sweden
I think a large draw distance is one of the biggest single graphical properties that impress me the most. And I don't just mean the geometry but "everything", from trees, to npcs, to shadows etc.
 

Wolf of Yharnam

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,004
I understood some of these words.

My amateurish thoughts: Textures are often lacking, especially up close. Give me better draw distances. Water has come a long way, but I think there's still a lot to improve, should be more realistic looking and moving (Black Flag and AC: Origins are pretty good in that regard tho)
 

Red Cadet 015

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,947
Most of these problems have to do with a lack of power and/or tools to implement them. I'm pretty sure most devs would like GI, as it's pretty "set it and forget it," but we don't have the power to do it yet. Simple as that.

I have to say though, personally, games look great to me as they are in PS4 Pro and XBX. I question the wisdom of pushing graphics even further except to cut down development time (like having the ability to do GI would).

Re water: Water is funny because many games just don't give a shit about water and it shows. Waverace on the N64 had shocking water when it came out. Many games have never come close to it's implementation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,466
Most of these problems have to do with a lack of power and/or tools to implement them. I'm pretty sure most devs would like GI, as it's pretty "set it and forget it," but we don't have the power to do it yet. Simple as that.

I have to say though, personally, games look great to me as they are in PS4 Pro and XBX. I question the wisdom of pushing graphics even further except to cut down development time (like having the ability to do GI would).
Yeah, it's not so much that these things "need to be addressed" per se, but just something to look forward to as computational power continues to improve. Once we get to the point that all of the bells and whistles are just standard engine features games will look better all across the board, even fan games.

I mean heck, just look at what some indie and fan made games look like now compared to ten years ago.
 

Vashetti

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,550
I think to see improvements in loading, texture streaming, LOD, etc., games need to start being built with SSDs in mind. e.g. for PC games requirements, you alway see HDDs recommended and very rarely an SSD.

Imagine if the minimum requirement was an SSD because the game was built in mind to expect a minimum amount of speed that an HDD just couldn't provide, regardless of whether it's 5400 or 7200rpm. Keep in mind that console games are built in mind for 5400rpm HDDs and you don't see the expected improvement when using an SSD instead.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
Stylistic variety in Western AAA games.
Oh shit a time traveler. How are you posting on a 2017 forum from the year 2012?
Thread is about technical things that still need to be done in gaming.
As others said, a lot of these things are not stuff that need to be addressed moreso that current hardware doesn't support it.

Clipping

I have no idea why this hasn't been fixed yet, I don't see how it could be that hard? After all this time I mean. (but I'm not a programmer, so I don't really know)
Because to attempt to prevent literally every possible instance of clipping would be impossible. Cloth simulation is nowhere near that advanced in real time unless you want to severely compromise performance.
 
Last edited:

VFX_Veteran

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,003
What do you mean, as in you don't know what clipping means?

Like on character models, when a weapon you're holding or holstering goes through the character itself when moving/animating. Or in combat, etc

Gotcha. I didn't know if you was talking about clipping from the camera view frustum or what. Thanks for clarifying that.

That's a very hard problem to solve as it's very expensive to detect collisions with assets on other assets. Making the bounding box too small will eat up bandwidth (yet again) and computation time would get extremely expensive.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
I hope procedural animation will get a lot better. I'm playing Rise of the Tomb Raider and boy it looks rough just about anytime Lara jumps off the ground
 

VFX_Veteran

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,003
I think to see improvements in loading, texture streaming, LOD, etc., games need to start being built with SSDs in mind. e.g. for PC games requirements, you alway see HDDs recommended and very rarely an SSD.

Imagine if the minimum requirement was an SSD because the game was built in mind to expect a minimum amount of speed that an HDD just couldn't provide, regardless of whether it's 5400 or 7200rpm. Keep in mind that console games are built in mind for 5400rpm HDDs and you don't see the expected improvement when using an SSD instead.

RAM trumps the SSD. If you could have more assets uploaded to the graphics card RAM, then the streaming would get much better.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I think the only ones that really bother me are pop in, draw in, texture updating whatever you call it, shadows popping up are absolutely atrocious. I do notice poor shadow quality but I understand it's probably very expensive to raise the quality like many other things so I can let those slide. Basically the stuff that is bloody obvious except clipping because I get that's monumental and an expensive effort to fix for devs when making the game work is more a priority.
 

Dezzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,432
USA
Clipping gets to me the most. Even in the newest, biggest budget games, you see things like hair going through your hat, weapons going though your clothes or arms, andbodies and objects going through walls.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Gotcha. I didn't know if you was talking about clipping from the camera view frustum or what. Thanks for clarifying that.

That's a very hard problem to solve as it's very expensive to detect collisions with assets on other assets. Making the bounding box too small will eat up bandwidth (yet again) and computation time would get extremely expensive.
Ok yeah I'm talking collisions with everything, if that's the more correct term.

I just thought in 2017 that GPUs/CPUs are super powerful now with plenty of power to spare for things like that.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
I think the only ones that really bother me are pop in, draw in, texture updating whatever you call it, shadows popping up are absolutely atrocious. I do notice poor shadow quality but I understand it's probably very expensive to raise the quality like many other things so I can let those slide. Basically the stuff that is bloody obvious except clipping because I get that's monumental and an expensive effort to fix for devs when making the game work is more a priority.

The only time its really a problem for me is when world shadows pop in and out creating a flashing effect on the ground
 

Horned Reaper

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,560
Small splashes of water or most types of liquid. Larger bodies of water are done well enough though imo.
 
Last edited:

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,929
Ok yeah I'm talking collisions with everything, if that's the more correct term.

I just thought in 2017 that GPUs/CPUs are super powerful now with plenty of power to spare for things like that.

If you look at the kind of framerate hit associated with improved hair physics in Tomb Raider, The Witcher, etc. you'll see that it's hardly trivial. Applying that to every object in the entire game isn't really feasible at this point.

It's possible to design around some instances of clipping in art direction by evaluating if shoulder pad A clips during animation B, but the number of combinations becomes astronomical the more animations, equipment, and character customization features you have. It's a problem that will only grow in magnitude as other aspects of a game's visuals get better.
 

Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,948
Portugal
Further advancements in fluid dynamics and soft body physics.

I remember in the first Call of Juarez and Unreal Tournament 2003/4 you could interact with the smoke, the it came back with physx and now seems to have been ignored again ever since.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,300
Ok yeah I'm talking collisions with everything, if that's the more correct term.

I just thought in 2017 that GPUs/CPUs are super powerful now with plenty of power to spare for things like that.
In a controlled scenario yes, but not when you actually have a functioning game to manage. Clipping is an issue that this medium will likely never be able to solve.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
If you look at the kind of framerate hit associated with improved hair physics in Tomb Raider, The Witcher, etc. you'll see that it's hardly trivial. Applying that to every object in the entire game isn't really feasible at this point.

It's possible to design around some instances of clipping in art direction by evaluating if shoulder pad A clips during animation B, but the number of combinations becomes astronomical the more animations, equipment, and character customization features you have. It's a problem that will only grow in magnitude as other aspects of a game's visuals get better.

In a controlled scenario yes, but not when you actually have a functioning game to manage. Clipping is an issue that this medium will likely never be able to solve.
dang really??? Had no idea it was that hardware intensive in today's age.

When do yall think the hardware power will be there to fix it completely? Hopefully at least within 10 years right??
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Say out? UC4 had amazing animations.

Also, my vote goes to shadows. If DSII taught me anything, it is the importance of the lighting system. Light is everything.
 

Squishy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
811
Ok yeah I'm talking collisions with everything, if that's the more correct term.

I just thought in 2017 that GPUs/CPUs are super powerful now with plenty of power to spare for things like that.
Haha, no. Even modern CG films can have clipping in them, just everything is pre-rendered and animated in advance instead of relying on real-time calculations so they can use tricks/camera angles to hide it. It's annoying as hell to deal with even when everything is pre-rendered and characters only have one outfit that you're fighting with to make it not clip, and the type of videogames where clipping is most common are ones that let you change armor/weapons/hairstyles/etc. It's time consuming and very annoying to fix 100% if you're trying to do it by hand, and as said the power just isn't there for real-time physics calculations of that level.


YxJ68Hj.gif
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Guy, you answered your title question too damn well!!!! Seriously, what are we supposed to talk about now?

Oh yeah, what about that pixel granularity... Damn those granules.... They should use pebbles!




For me, I would forgo a lot of that jazz just too have spatial consistency/solidarity.

We have these large worlds with these huge draw distances. Love em. But things are constantly popping in out of nowhere, or suddenly changing shape as a new higher lod model is swapped out.... I would rather have this ironed out before going ham on GI solutions or approximations and whatnot.
 

memoryman3

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,146
Draw distance! Good draw distances aren't that expensive on budget but it IS taxing on hardware. I also want to see CPU related things being pushed instead of just fancy graphics.