What is the key to enjoying Bayonetta 2's combat? It feels button-mashy and low impact.

[Deleted member 2834]

As opposed to Metal Gear Rising, which has probably the most enjoyable melee combat in any game I know along with Nioh and Ninja Gaiden. I got progressively better in MGR to the point where I beat the final boss without getting hit once after getting smashed by him over an over. The learning curve in that game was amazing and the parry mechanic was fantastic and satisfying too. I was so much better at the game by the end of the first playthrough. In Bayonetta 2 (normal difficulty) I have not progressed at all. I'm in chapter 8 oder 9 and I'm doing the same thing I've been doing since chapter 1 : button mash X and A, Press ZR when the enemy attacks (timing is trivial), keep button mashing. That seems to carry me easily through the game so far. I have considered upping the difficulty but I'm not sure if that's the problem.
Just why is the combat so little fun in comparison to MGR? My punches feel like they lack impact, and button mashing seems to work just fine. Actually, I enjoy the weapons the enemies drop the most because they make me feel like my attacks carry weight. I have no incentive to get better at the game because it doesn't punish my style of playing. What's the secret? MGR is clearly the more fun game to me. I'd argue I enjoyed Nier: A's combat more too.

I bought the parry item in Bayonetta 2 which adds a MGR-like parry ability, but it feels like dodging is the better move every time.

 

[Phendrift]

Use Wicked Weave combos.

PKP is the simplest one, but there are tons of others.

Also, in general, Bayonetta 1 feels "heavier" than B2 imo, if you want to try that.

 

[Imran]

On higher difficulties and other characters, Witch Time isn't there or the window becomes much tighter. But if you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. You don't have to like every character action game.

 

[wondermagenta]

Bayonetta 2 is horribly balanced and doesn't encourage you to get good at it. It's a huge downgrade from the first game in that regard, which a lot of people don't seem to be aware of. I recommend just getting into that one instead if you're looking for deeper, more interesting combat. Bayonetta 1 is easily my favorite game of all time.

 

[Kinsei]

The combat is the weakest part of Bayonetta 2. It basically boils down to equipping your strongest weapon and then spamming your highest damage dealing combo whenever you activate witch time.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

On higher difficulties and other characters, Witch Time isn't there or the window becomes much tighter. But if you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. You don't have to like every character action game.

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Do higher difficulties reduce the Witch Time frames?

 

[Charlouie Jonesman]

The satisfying mechanic behind the Bayonetta games is dodge offset, which requires focus and the opposite of button mashing. Holding either the attack or kick button will prolong your attack depending on the weapon you're carrying and while doing so, your combo will resume after dodging from where you left off, letting you shower the enemies with a constant barrage of wicked weaves. Way more fun *and* efficient.

That being said, the first game has much better and engaging combat. 2 has an over-reliance on Umbran Climax attacks that are basically just mash button to win and unlike the first game there's no real punishment for getting hit, as in, in the first game getting hit even once would drastically decrease your magic gauge.

 

[spam musubi]

Bayonetta 2 is horribly balanced and doesn't encourage you to get good at it. It's a huge downgrade from the first game in that regard, which a lot of people don't seem to be aware of. I recommend just getting into that one instead if you're looking for deeper, more interesting combat. Bayonetta 1 is easily my favorite game of all time.

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You may enjoy this video:

 

[wondermagenta]

Do higher difficulties reduce the Witch Time frames?

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Witch Time duration (if that's what you're asking about) is different depending on the enemy/attack you're dodging in Bayo 2. One of 2's big problems is that so much of the enemy design (especially bosses) is built entirely around Witch Time and its nebulous rules and mechanics. It's almost impossible to get consistent hits in outside of WT on higher difficulties, turning a lot of the 1v1 duels into very defensive, dodge-reliant affairs.

Bayo 1 isn't like this and the highest difficulty in that game, Infinite Climax, disables Witch Time entirely, essentially taking the training wheels away and truly testing your mastery of the mechanics.

EDIT:

You may enjoy this video:

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Already seen it! Pretty telling that he, in the span of 16 minutes, still didn't have time to mention everything or go into more detail with the stuff he did talk about. There's just so SO much wrong with Bayonetta 2.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

Witch Time duration (if that's what you're asking about) is different depending on the enemy/attack you're dodging in Bayo 2. One of 2's big problems is that so much of the enemy design (especially bosses) is built entirely around Witch Time and its nebulous rules and mechanics. It's almost impossible to get consistent hits in outside of WT on higher difficulties, turning a lot of the 1v1 duels into very defensive, dodge-reliant affairs.

Bayo 1 isn't like this and the highest difficulty in that game, Infinite Climax, disables Witch Time entirely, essentially taking the training wheels away and truly testing your mastery of the mechanics.

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I see, thanks. I already played Bayo 1 though.

 

[foxuzamaki]

I am not feeling you on "lack of impact" ive never seen anyone but you have this complaint, if anything I think the actual feel is better in bayonetta 2

 

[Deleted member 2834]

I am not feeling you on "lack of impact" ive never seen anyone but you have this complaint, if anything I think the actual feel is better in bayonetta 2

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Than in MGR? Nah dawg.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Bayo 2 is kinda trash. Mash your way through it and enjoy the spectacle (which is great!) then move on to Bayo 1 and enjoy a sublime system with infinite depth.

 

[wondermagenta]

I see, thanks. I already played Bayo 1 though.

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Did you have the same frustrations with that game? Both titles feature a hidden technique called Dodge Offset, only once you learn that the depth of Bayo 1 becomes truly apparent.

 

[Sensei]

Bayonetta 2 is horribly balanced and doesn't encourage you to get good at it. It's a huge downgrade from the first game in that regard, which a lot of people don't seem to be aware of. I recommend just getting into that one instead if you're looking for deeper, more interesting combat. Bayonetta 1 is easily my favorite game of all time.

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Correct.

Bayo 2 is still amazing and I love the game, but mechanically it's a baby game compared to 1. It's all potatoes with no steak.

 

[R.T Straker]

That's a hard one tbh.

The combat balance in Bayo 2 is pretty bad and it's designed around shit like Umbran Climax and really encourages button mashing.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

Did you have the same frustrations with that game? Both titles feature a hidden technique called Dodge Offset, only once you learn that the depth of Bayo 1 becomes truly apparent.

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I actually did have the same complains, yeah. I bought Bayo 2 because I figured I was being stupid back then, but the games might just not be for me after all. I never got into dodge offset, although I do remember people telling me about it back then. MGR is fun without having to resort to obscure techniques you can't find outside of Youtube.

 

[Charlouie Jonesman]

I actually did have the same complains, yeah. I bought Bayo 2 because I figured I was being stupid back then, but the games might just not be for me after all. I never got into dodge offset, although I do remember people telling me about it back then. MGR is fun without having to resort to obscure techniques you can't find outside Youtube.

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MGR was heavily critizised for it's shitty and downright misleading tutorial regarding parrying.

And dodge offset is explicitly mentioned under the special abilities tab in Bayo 1.

It is a vital mechanic if you want to have fun with the combat.

 

[Skittzo]

Lack of impact isn't something I can agree with. I basically always hold the attack buttons to do the extra damage (whether with bullets or scythe blades or the chainsaw) and when you're hitting buttons like that- press x, hold, press a, hold, press x, hold- it feels extremely impactful.

That's also the easiest way to rack up your combo score.

 

[Unknownlight]

Huh, I had the opposite experience. I was finding it basically impossible to get good scores at the end of each stage until I stopped button-mashing and set aside 30-45 minutes or so to figure out how to do dodge offsets properly.

I had a lot more fun with the combat after that.

 

[maneauleau]

No one mentioning TW101 in this thread is a real shame imo. Really need a Switch version because that's the better game.

 

[SirKai]

Hold down attack buttons for meatier hits, focus on dodges to get that witch time. The temp and rhythm of getting successive activations of witch time is what makes the combat so satisfying.

 

[NeroPaige]

I could never get the hang of it myself OP, trying to replicate those youtube videos even low-key air juggles flew by my head. I think it was the camera messing me up.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

I loved using the hammer.

 

[SirFritz]

Not only is bayonetta 2's gameplay awful but like half the game is you fighting stationary bosses that don't flinch at your attacks at all or worse still you fighting a boss while flying. I much prefer the first games levels and combat.

 

[azeke]

low impact.

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Bayonetta 2 has the best hit reactions in any action game ever:

Figuring Out Damage Motion

Aside from weird balancing issues that make learning curve either too lenient or too demanding (2 extremes that ruin a good combat learning experience) Bayonetta 2 also does shenanigans with difficulty modes, so a mode most people would choose is more akin to Easy in Bayonetta 1.

Not only is bayonetta 2's gameplay awful but like half the game is you fighting stationary bosses that don't flinch at your attacks at all or worse still you fighting a boss while flying. I much prefer the first games levels and combat.

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Bayonetta 2's gameplay is more or less the same as Bayonetta 1. It's the balance that is wrong. Same error as in MGR, really and at least foundation of Bayonetta 2 isn't as halfbaked as in MGR due to development troubles.

Maybe check out this article by Ben Ruiz on how and why Bayonetta combat works:

On Bayonetta 2 And "The Secret Game"
and accompanying video to it:

 

[Mysterio79]

If you don't like Bayo 2 combat, you're not doin it right :p

 

[Snormy]

The satisfying mechanic behind the Bayonetta games is dodge offset, which requires focus and the opposite of button mashing. Holding either the attack or kick button will prolong your attack depending on the weapon you're carrying and while doing so, your combo will resume after dodging from where you left off, letting you shower the enemies with a constant barrage of wicked weaves. Way more fun *and* efficient.

Click to shrink...

I agree with this. I do think Bayo 1 is strong in combat but I don't think Bayo 2 is as bad as some of the posts here make it out to be or at least I still very much enjoyed it.

 

[silva1991]

Replay the first Bayonetta and then learn dodge offset. That's the best Bayonetta experience.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

Not only is bayonetta 2's gameplay awful but like half the game is you fighting stationary bosses that don't flinch at your attacks at all or worse still you fighting a boss while flying. I much prefer the first games levels and combat.

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Lol, it is not "awful," what an absurd hyperbole.

 

[leder]

The vast majority of my enjoyment in bayo 2 came from trying to get the top rank in levels. The game doesn't really feel as great as other character action games when just going for a clear.

 

[Datajoy]

Its crazy how much hate the game is getting in here! Wasn't it GOTY that year on gaf and widely lauded as the GOAT action game?

 

[phantomx]

Its crazy how much hate the game is getting in here! Wasn't it GOTY that year on gaf and widely lauded as the GOAT action game?

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There is an algorithm I found somewhere where it calculates time/distance and force? and a few other variables I don't remember...but it basically predicts how long before a vocal minority on Neogaf/Resetera reverses the narrative in threads about a once acclaimed game/movie/tv show

I'll try to find it...it's fascinating

Don't worry though, at some point in time in the future it will swing back to being reverential.

 

[Mistle]

I felt the same as you... Really wanted to get into Bayonetta but it never felt satisfying to me. Fighting was button mashy and just never really felt good :( I was bad at it admittedly, but progressed just fine, so it wasn't even rewarding.

 

[azeke]

Its crazy how much hate the game is getting in here! Wasn't it GOTY that year on gaf and widely lauded as the GOAT action game?

Click to shrink...

Bayonetta 2 is still an excellent game not only in the context of anemic 2014 but of that entire generation easily, very easily.

The problem it's not as good as Bayonetta 1 -- for fans of the first game who played for hundreds of hours and expect the same levels of replayability and depth. So it gets a lot of criticism from that echo chamber so people who don't and won't understand the substance of their criticisms think that these people are saying B2 is an awful game.

It is not an awful game, by far. It is a brilliant game with unmatched production qualities and is several heads and shoulders above any other action game produced by other studio. And even compared to PG's other productions, it is like top 3 (with either TW101 or B1 at the top). But "even better" is the the most bitter enemy of "good".

 

[EarthPainting]

Comparing Rising and Bayonetta's a little difficult because they try to evoke different vibes and philosophies. They can be easily illustrated in how the games table their lightest attacks. Bayonetta effortlessly zips past them with her dodges, while Raiden takes them head on and deflects them with his blade. Bayonetta toys with her prey, while Raiden wants to press on as quickly as possible. The presentation of both games are tuned to this.

I think Bayonetta 2 does a much better job to make the game more playable for the least experienced people among us, and provides steeper challenges to those who want to push themselves. I'll agree that the leniency on the lower end doesn't really naturally push the player to improve, which can make the game dull if you're operating below your skill level. Bayonetta 1 had a more punishing balance for the mashers, but for many people, it just made them drop the game in frustration. Bayonetta works best if you actively try to improve your rank, because that will push your towards the path of utilising its entire bag of tricks. This might require some studying and practice though, so you might be stuck looking at Youtube videos to get the most out of these games.

 

[Datajoy]

There is an algorithm I found somewhere where it calculates time/distance and force? and a few other variables I don't remember...but it basically predicts how long before a vocal minority on Neogaf/Resetera reverses the narrative in threads about a once acclaimed game/movie/tv show

I'll try to find it...it's fascinating

Don't worry though, at some point in time in the future it will swing back to being reverential.

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I come to you from 2023. Skyward Sword is better than BOTW yall.

 

[Deleted member 2834]

I felt the same as you... Really wanted to get into Bayonetta but it never felt satisfying to me. Fighting was button mashy and just never really felt good :( I was bad at it admittedly, but progressed just fine, so it wasn't even rewarding.

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Yes, that's how I feel. I like the game just fine but I'm not entirely "getting" it yet. I'll watch YT vids on dodge offset today.

 

[Nothere]

This thread hyped me thinking about Bayo 3 being made specifically for the switch... man oh man HD rumble will make combat feel SEXY.

 

[Deleted member 25108]

As opposed to Metal Gear Rising, which has probably the most enjoyable melee combat in any game I know along with Nioh and Ninja Gaiden. I got progressively better in MGR to the point where I beat the final boss without getting hit once after getting smashed by him over an over. The learning curve in that game was amazing and the parry mechanic was fantastic and satisfying too. I was so much better at the game by the end of the first playthrough. In Bayonetta 2 (normal difficulty) I have not progressed at all. I'm in chapter 8 oder 9 and I'm doing the same thing I've been doing since chapter 1 : button mash X and A, Press ZR when the enemy attacks (timing is trivial), keep button mashing. That seems to carry me easily through the game so far. I have considered upping the difficulty but I'm not sure if that's the problem.
Just why is the combat so little fun in comparison to MGR? My punches feel like they lack impact, and button mashing seems to work just fine. Actually, I enjoy the weapons the enemies drop the most because they make me feel like my attacks carry weight. I have no incentive to get better at the game because it doesn't punish my style of playing. What's the secret? MGR is clearly the more fun game to me. I'd argue I enjoyed Nier: A's combat more too.

I bought the parry item in Bayonetta 2 which adds a MGR-like parry ability, but it feels like dodging is the better move every time.

Click to shrink...

Buy and equip the gaze of despair and evil harvest rosary.

Learn dodge offset.

 

[Jintor]

Yes, that's how I feel. I like the game just fine but I'm not entirely "getting" it yet. I'll watch YT vids on dodge offset today.

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I'll echo everyone here in saying Bayo 1 is my far fave to Bayo 2, but I perfectly fit the mould of pouring hundreds of hours into it.

One of the reasons Bayo 2 vs Bayo 1 really sucks is that they removed a lot of the utility of Weaves outside of Witch Time. In Bayo 1, Weaves stagger, stunlock, launch or knockback enemies and are really great for clearing space and giving yourself breathing room. In Bayo 2, they reduced a lot of those effects so getting out a normal weave just isn't nearly as rewarding. Add that to the smaller witch time window and you end up with a game that just doesn't feel as satisfying.

Utilising Weaves well basically requires you to really understand offset, because if you mash you'll just fuck up your combo strings.

Anyway it's a good excuse to post a clip of me abusing dodge offset in Bayo 1.

 

[Sincerest]

That's one thing Ninja Gaiden (Black) has had over every Platinum character action game --- the impact and feedback of combat.

I hate when games use the "heavy streaks" on hits to hide the shit collision and feedback, like Bayonetta games.

 

[Deleted member 511]

Bayonetta 2 is horribly balanced and doesn't encourage you to get good at it. It's a huge downgrade from the first game in that regard, which a lot of people don't seem to be aware of. I recommend just getting into that one instead if you're looking for deeper, more interesting combat. Bayonetta 1 is easily my favorite game of all time.

Click to shrink...

I haven't played Bayonetta 2 yet (no Switch :'c) but after replaying Bayonetta countless times to get good at it, hearing this really dampers my excitement to play the sequel.

 

[Phendrift]

I'll echo everyone here in saying Bayo 1 is my far fave to Bayo 2, but I perfectly fit the mould of pouring hundreds of hours into it.

One of the reasons Bayo 2 vs Bayo 1 really sucks is that they removed a lot of the utility of Weaves outside of Witch Time. In Bayo 1, Weaves stagger, stunlock, launch or knockback enemies and are really great for clearing space and giving yourself breathing room. In Bayo 2, they reduced a lot of those effects so getting out a normal weave just isn't nearly as rewarding. Add that to the smaller witch time window and you end up with a game that just doesn't feel as satisfying.

Utilising Weaves well basically requires you to really understand offset, because if you mash you'll just fuck up your combo strings.

Anyway it's a good excuse to post a clip of me abusing dodge offset in Bayo 1.

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Yeah my biggest wish for improvements to Bayo 2 in 3 is restoring how weaves felt in 1.

I haven't played Bayonetta 2 yet (no Switch :'c) but after replaying Bayonetta countless times to get good at it, hearing this really dampers my excitement to play the sequel.

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It definitely won't scratch that replay itch as well as Bayo 1 does, but it's still a great game that's definitely worth a playthrough.

 

[iag]

If I remember correctly, Bayo2's normal mode is equivalent to Bayo1's easy mode. Maybe you should try to play it on a harder mode?

 

[Phendrift]

If I remember correctly, Bayo2's normal mode is equivalent to Bayo1's easy mode. Maybe you should try to play it on a harder mode?

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I wouldn't really say in terms of actual gameplay difficulty that they're the same, but the rankings are much more lenient in Bayo 2. So what you might get your first Easy playthrough in 1 is what you'll get on your first normal playthrough in 2.

 

[darkwing]

yup, B1 is better, and cheaper too

 

[DevilMayGuy]

It's just not that good, tbh. There's no "key" to enjoying it; if you're not feeling it, you likely won't. Some love it, some don't.

My opinion, of course.

 

[wondermagenta]

I haven't played Bayonetta 2 yet (no Switch :'c) but after replaying Bayonetta countless times to get good at it, hearing this really dampers my excitement to play the sequel.

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Yeahhhh it's a pretty big letdown :( Really hope Bayo 3 addresses a lot of the second game's design flaws.