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AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I never owned a Genesis or a Sega CD or a 32X. In fact I never owned any Sega console but lately I've been on a nostalgia trip that the book Console Wars is taking me on.

I've come across these games that on the spine instead of saying they're for the Sega CD or the Sega 32X they say they're for the Sega CD 32X!
images

images


How did these work? You bought this and you'd get both a CD and a cartridge for your 32X? Why did you need both? In what manner did these games communicate with each other or use each other to produce one game? Apparently some of these games were also available only as a Sega CD but not CD 32X. What did the combo version could pull off that the single cart or CD couldn't do?

This perplexed me. What a shitshow the Genesis was near the end.

EDIT: just noticed that that Fahrenheit case says "Both discs included". Both discs? Did they fuck up and meant to say it includes both the CD and the 32X cart instead?
 

OddSock

Member
Oct 27, 2017
126
South Africa
800px-Md2_mcd2_32x.jpg


Those games (there were only 5 or 6 of them) required both of the addons. the CD bits were mostly used to add FMV, while the 32X bit improved the in-game graphics (slightly).
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,797
You only get the cd in the 32x cd version. The 32x is used as additional horse power for more on screen colors etc. It's a little bit like giving the sega cd a super FX chip.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Biggest waste of money ever, can't believe I begged my dad to buy it for me.

The 32x was meant to be basically a bridge in between the genesis and Saturn. Games that were made for the 32x had more power to work with and could have better graphics.

The problem is there weren't many games for it, most big devs were developing for the Saturn instead since Sega was already planning ahead for it and had devs working on that.

In the end a lot of third party devs ended up canning their 32x games and all in all it had really a very poor offering of games, even though it had more power behind it there really wasn't much to make use of it.
 

kitsuneyo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
586
Manchester, UK
I had no idea there were games that required both the Mega CD and 32X either. That's insane. Those games must have sold pitifully. Sega went nuts.
 

yap

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,903
32X-CD games only came on one disc, there were no extra cartridge. They were Sega CD games that required the 32X to be plugged in for better picture or whatever. Only FMV games did that.

EDIT: just noticed that that Fahrenheit case says "Both discs included". Both discs? Did they fuck up and meant to say it includes both the CD and the 32X cart instead?

Fahrenheit came with two playable CDs, the regular Sega CD version and the enhanced 32X-CD. They're the same game.
 
OP
OP
AztecComplex

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
32X-CD games only came on one disc, there were no extra cartridge. They were Sega CD games that required the 32X to be plugged in for better picture or whatever. Only FMV games did that.



Fahrenheit came with two playable CDs, the regular Sega CD version and the enhanced 32X-CD. They're the same game.
Jesus Christ if this was confusing now imagine back in 1994 before the internet. Sega really shot themselves in the foot for real with all this peripheral nightmare.

Well at least you didn't need a cartridge and a CD. I didn't know the Genesis could harness the 32X just by having it plugged in without a cart.
 
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optimiss

Member
May 17, 2018
356
I bought the CD 32X version of Night Trap when I found it years ago because it was such a novelty. Never played it though lol.
 

Symphony

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
Well at least you didn't need a cartridge and a CD. I didn't know the Genesis could harness the 32X just by having it plugged in without a cart.
The 32X typically was used just to overlay stuff rather than handle the complete game which is why you needed the cable to pass the Mega Drive video output to it, most games had the Mega Drive handle either the UI or background layer and if you unplugged the cable bridging the two systems you'd see only part of the game being displayed on the TV.
 

Kapryov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,144
Australia
Thanks for making this thread, I always wondered about it too.
I only had the 32X attachment back in the day, and I remember seeing the 32X CD games in rental places. I wonder if anybody actually rented them...
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,134
I swear to god I remember reading in a Sega magazine around 94 that the 32X would allow for a near arcade perfect Daytona port (and that the forthcoming Saturn would be able to do a perfect + port)

Hillarious. So glad I narrowly avoided this PoS
 

Pillock

User Requested Ban
Banned
Dec 29, 2017
1,341
They were designed for the 8 people in the world that owned a 32X and a Sega CD.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
the sega genesis talks to both peripherals in two different ways. The sega genesis firstly can address 4Mbits of ROM through the cart ports. In actuality, the genesis has TWO cartridge ports, one on the top, and one on the side, which is gender swapped:

sega-genesis-1-expansion.png


The Sega CD is thus seen by the Genesis as a large cartridge attached to the system, except while the Genesis sees the Sega CD as a large chunk of ROM - read only memory -- the addressed data port space on the Sega CD is actually RAM - memory the Sega CD can write to. The Sega CD has two modes of addressing available, one that lets the Genesis see the Sega CD as one giant 256 Kb chunk of memory at once, which only the Genesis or Sega CD can access one at a time, or as two 128 Kb chunks of memory, which can be swapped around. In this dual 128Kb mode, the genesis can access one 128 Kb chunk of memory at the same time the Sega CD can access the other 128 Kb chunk of memory, allowing them to be used like a frame buffer.

The Sega CD itself lacks any sort of hardware to draw to the screen, all drawing is done via the Sega Genesis. Despite this, the Sega CD is almost entirely it's own console otherwise. It has it's own, independently running 68000 CPU -- clocked faster than the Sega Genesis CPU -- it's own RAM, and loads of custom sample based audio hardware more in line with the SNES than the Genesis. It also includes an ASIC chip for fast 3D math, which lets the Sega CD perform hardware scaling and rotation on sets of sprites and tiles. Despite this, because the Sega CD has to use the Genesis to actually draw it's skewed and stretched art, a bottleneck emerges when the Sega CD has to quickly put tiles into the Genesis VRAM; the process is that the Sega CD must internally update some tiles in it's own RAM first using the ASIC, then move them to one of the 128Kb buffers, then swap buffers so the Genesis can see them, then wait for Vblank to DMA a large chunk of tiles from ROM to VRAM. This is why, for example, the special stages in Sonic CD are at a much lower framerate than, say, Super Mario Kart.

The 32X, by contrast, is basically a frame buffer and a Gen Lock running on top of the Genesis. the 32X has it's own completely independent graphics system from the Genesis. Rather than using 8x8 tiles and sprites to draw images on the 32X, the 32X presents the programmer with 2 Direct Color frame buffers which can be configured in memory. There are a few color modes available to the the 32X, including an indexed 256 color palette mode, and a 16 bit per pixel color mode. The benefit of a direct color Frame buffer is that individuals pixels can be plotted on the screen arbitrarily, allowing for things like 3D polygons to be rendered. The 32X also has a hardware fill function, which lets it fill arbitrary areas of memory with solid color (or patterns) which is useful for rasterizing polygons beyond the wireframe.

The 32X interacts with the genesis in a pretty hands off way. the Genesis underneath the 32X runs basically independently of the 32X. where they communicate is in the cartridge, which is addressed by both the 32X and the Sega Genesis. The space in the cart addressed by the Genesis runs 68000 code, and the space in the cart addressed by the 32X runs SH2 code. The limits of the interaction between the 32X and Genesis is basicaly the 32X using the Genesis' controller ports to poll, and the genesis feeding its own video stream externally back into the 32X using a cable. Comparing this again to a Gen Lock, the 32X thusly essentially has two ports -- a video out port that goes to the television, and a video IN port that takes video from the Genesis. This video-in port will take a full frame from the genesis, which gets treated like an independent background layer on the 32X. thus, 32X elements can either appear entirely behind or entirely in front of Genesis graphics, but can't intermingle. You can't, for example, have 32X elements appearing in between layers of a Genesis background. One problem with the 32X -- plotting pixels directly through the CPUs is a bit too much for the 32X to handle every single frame. Games that try to use the 32X to draw every frame entirely in the CPU wind up running at 30 FPS because doing so at 60 FPS is too slow. The Genesis, by comparison, has dedicated tile-based hardware designed to draw backgrounds at 60 FPS, and thus a common use for 32X games is to have high quality "sprite" elements with lots of colors, while letting the Genesis draw the backgrounds at 60 FPS to make the games run fast.

Now, with regards to the 32X and Sega CD, the 32X sees the Sega CD through the shared memory addressed in the cart space. In practice, all* 32X Sega CD games merely used the 32X to output more colors on screen for better full motion video, something the Sega CD could have technically done using Blast Processing on the Sega Genesis. Despite that, it's possible to write a 32X program that can still access and take advantage of the Sega CD and it's AISC like any other genesis game; it's just that doing so is redundant. It's faster to do 3D math entirely on the 32X rather than relying on the AISC due to the memory bottlenecks.

this brings us to a feature of the Sega CD that was never used in any retail game: Mode 1. Mode 1 is a boot mode from the Sega CD where the Genesis boots from a cartridge, but still can address the Sega CD's 128Kb shared memory and thus can access the hardware. This is basically a way for a cart game to access the AISC and sample based sound hardware, without accessing the actual CD ROM drive. Again, no games ever used this mode, because why would you make a game that ran on cart but required the CD hardware to run? CDs were cheaper to produce than carts and contained more space.

*Pier Solar is also technically a 32X CD game, although it uses the hardware in very different ways. Pier Solar doesn't use redbook audio, but rather streaming PCM to send super high quality audio to be played in real time. It can also detect that a 32X is present and will plant small easter eggs in the game if a 32X is present, but otherwise does not use the 32X hardware at all.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
All of the 32X-CD games were just Sega CD games originally, the 32x just gives it a small graphical boost.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,098
the sega genesis talks to both peripherals in two different ways. The sega genesis firstly can address 4Mbits of ROM through the cart ports. In actuality, the genesis has TWO cartridge ports, one on the top, and one on the side, which is gender swapped:

sega-genesis-1-expansion.png


The Sega CD is thus seen by the Genesis as a large cartridge attached to the system, except while the Genesis sees the Sega CD as a large chunk of ROM - read only memory -- the addressed data port space on the Sega CD is actually RAM - memory the Sega CD can write to. The Sega CD has two modes of addressing available, one that lets the Genesis see the Sega CD as one giant 256 Kb chunk of memory at once, which only the Genesis or Sega CD can access one at a time, or as two 128 Kb chunks of memory, which can be swapped around. In this dual 128Kb mode, the genesis can access one 128 Kb chunk of memory at the same time the Sega CD can access the other 128 Kb chunk of memory, allowing them to be used like a frame buffer.

The Sega CD itself lacks any sort of hardware to draw to the screen, all drawing is done via the Sega Genesis. Despite this, the Sega CD is almost entirely it's own console otherwise. It has it's own, independently running 68000 CPU -- clocked faster than the Sega Genesis CPU -- it's own RAM, and loads of custom sample based audio hardware more in line with the SNES than the Genesis. It also includes an ASIC chip for fast 3D math, which lets the Sega CD perform hardware scaling and rotation on sets of sprites and tiles. Despite this, because the Sega CD has to use the Genesis to actually draw it's skewed and stretched art, a bottleneck emerges when the Sega CD has to quickly put tiles into the Genesis VRAM; the process is that the Sega CD must internally update some tiles in it's own RAM first using the ASIC, then move them to one of the 128Kb buffers, then swap buffers so the Genesis can see them, then wait for Vblank to DMA a large chunk of tiles from ROM to VRAM. This is why, for example, the special stages in Sonic CD are at a much lower framerate than, say, Super Mario Kart.

The 32X, by contrast, is basically a frame buffer and a Gen Lock running on top of the Genesis. the 32X has it's own completely independent graphics system from the Genesis. Rather than using 8x8 tiles and sprites to draw images on the 32X, the 32X presents the programmer with 2 Direct Color frame buffers which can be configured in memory. There are a few color modes available to the the 32X, including an indexed 256 color palette mode, and a 16 bit per pixel color mode. The benefit of a direct color Frame buffer is that individuals pixels can be plotted on the screen arbitrarily, allowing for things like 3D polygons to be rendered. The 32X also has a hardware fill function, which lets it fill arbitrary areas of memory with solid color (or patterns) which is useful for rasterizing polygons beyond the wireframe.

The 32X interacts with the genesis in a pretty hands off way. the Genesis underneath the 32X runs basically independently of the 32X. where they communicate is in the cartridge, which is addressed by both the 32X and the Sega Genesis. The space in the cart addressed by the Genesis runs 68000 code, and the space in the cart addressed by the 32X runs SH2 code. The limits of the interaction between the 32X and Genesis is basicaly the 32X using the Genesis' controller ports to poll, and the genesis feeding its own video stream externally back into the 32X using a cable. Comparing this again to a Gen Lock, the 32X thusly essentially has two ports -- a video out port that goes to the television, and a video IN port that takes video from the Genesis. This video-in port will take a full frame from the genesis, which gets treated like an independent background layer on the 32X. thus, 32X elements can either appear entirely behind or entirely in front of Genesis graphics, but can't intermingle. You can't, for example, have 32X elements appearing in between layers of a Genesis background. One problem with the 32X -- plotting pixels directly through the CPUs is a bit too much for the 32X to handle every single frame. Games that try to use the 32X to draw every frame entirely in the CPU wind up running at 30 FPS because doing so at 60 FPS is too slow. The Genesis, by comparison, has dedicated tile-based hardware designed to draw backgrounds at 60 FPS, and thus a common use for 32X games is to have high quality "sprite" elements with lots of colors, while letting the Genesis draw the backgrounds at 60 FPS to make the games run fast.

Now, with regards to the 32X and Sega CD, the 32X sees the Sega CD through the shared memory addressed in the cart space. In practice, all* 32X Sega CD games merely used the 32X to output more colors on screen for better full motion video, something the Sega CD could have technically done using Blast Processing on the Sega Genesis. Despite that, it's possible to write a 32X program that can still access and take advantage of the Sega CD and it's AISC like any other genesis game; it's just that doing so is redundant. It's faster to do 3D math entirely on the 32X rather than relying on the AISC due to the memory bottlenecks.

this brings us to a feature of the Sega CD that was never used in any retail game: Mode 1. Mode 1 is a boot mode from the Sega CD where the Genesis boots from a cartridge, but still can address the Sega CD's 128Kb shared memory and thus can access the hardware. This is basically a way for a cart game to access the AISC and sample based sound hardware, without accessing the actual CD ROM drive. Again, no games ever used this mode, because why would you make a game that ran on cart but required the CD hardware to run? CDs were cheaper to produce than carts and contained more space.

*Pier Solar is also technically a 32X CD game, although it uses the hardware in very different ways. Pier Solar doesn't use redbook audio, but rather streaming PCM to send super high quality audio to be played in real time. It can also detect that a 32X is present and will plant small easter eggs in the game if a 32X is present, but otherwise does not use the 32X hardware at all.

Fantastic post.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,187
I guess it seems counterintuitive that the cartridge-based add on 32X could enhance a game run off a CD, but it does. No cartridge required.

Every 32X CD game (all 6 of them) is an FMV-only game, which means they're all crap. I have 2, just for novelty's sake, and that is all they're good for.
 

G_Shumi

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,162
Cleveland, OH
This brings us to a feature of the Sega CD that was never used in any retail game: Mode 1. Mode 1 is a boot mode from the Sega CD where the Genesis boots from a cartridge, but still can address the Sega CD's 128Kb shared memory and thus can access the hardware. This is basically a way for a cart game to access the AISC and sample based sound hardware, without accessing the actual CD ROM drive. Again, no games ever used this mode, because why would you make a game that ran on cart but required the CD hardware to run? CDs were cheaper to produce than carts and contained more space.
Wow! That's a really incredible post. I do wonder, though, since no games actually used Mode 1, do you think Sega were intending to use that feature with the Sega CDX? Also, does anyone know if the 32X attachment works on a Sega CDX? I imagine it would at least look better and sleeker than the original setup in the OP.

genesiscdx-1000x665w.jpg
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Wow! That's a really incredible post. I do wonder, though, since no games actually used Mode 1, do you think Sega were intending to use that feature with the Sega CDX? Also, does anyone know if the 32X attachment works on a Sega CDX? I imagine it would at least look better and sleeker than the original setup in the OP.

genesiscdx-1000x665w.jpg

probably not
 

Rosol

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,397
Funny that I had both the 32x (which I only liked for Virtua Racing) and a Sega CD (Which had a ton of good games) I remember these coming later on, I never tried them though cause I had sega cd versions of some of the games like night trap. I'm pretty sure it just allowed for better colors in the video, sega cd's video was pretty abysmal if you compare it to the systems that came after.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,098
Wow! That's a really incredible post. I do wonder, though, since no games actually used Mode 1, do you think Sega were intending to use that feature with the Sega CDX? Also, does anyone know if the 32X attachment works on a Sega CDX? I imagine it would at least look better and sleeker than the original setup in the OP.

genesiscdx-1000x665w.jpg

Who knows if SEGA had any plans on using mode 1. Their engineers could've added the mode because it was technically feasible to include and leave it up to developers to figure out a use for it. OTOH, maybe SEGA at some point had the idea of putting put cart based games with that mode 1 hook and sell separate audio expansion CDs for SegaCD owners.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,306
Yeah, internally a Sega CD is basically a few chips away from being its own console, a pretty good one to boot.
 

woodypop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
818
Wow! That's a really incredible post. I do wonder, though, since no games actually used Mode 1, do you think Sega were intending to use that feature with the Sega CDX? Also, does anyone know if the 32X attachment works on a Sega CDX? I imagine it would at least look better and sleeker than the original setup in the OP.

genesiscdx-1000x665w.jpg
Yes, I believe it does. It's been a while since I connected a 32X to a CDX. I remember plugging it in, and it seated fine. But I can't recall for sure if I powered it on. (I can try again this weekend.)

EDIT: If I recall correctly, the manual for the CDX or the 32X alludes to the marriage of the two.
 

The Real Abed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,723
Pennsylvania
I actually own two of these. Corpse Killer (Which I also own on normal SegaCD) and Slam City with Scottie Pippin. I have literally never opened the boxes (Not sealed either) until just now. There's no cartridge in it at all. I assume the console was able to access the 32X stuff without one. Inside the Corpse Killer box there's just a CD with manual and other typical papers. But in my Slam City box there's four (FOUR) discs all labeled "Fingers", "Juice", "Mad Dog" and "Smash" which I assume are characters you play against, or as? I dunno. I've never even put them in my console and the boxes are pristine condition. I bought them on eBay like 16 years ago.
 

Leynos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,056
Wow! That's a really incredible post. I do wonder, though, since no games actually used Mode 1, do you think Sega were intending to use that feature with the Sega CDX? Also, does anyone know if the 32X attachment works on a Sega CDX? I imagine it would at least look better and sleeker than the original setup in the OP.

genesiscdx-1000x665w.jpg

Actually, the 32X does work with the CDX. Sega was set to release an adapter that allowed one to set the 32X on top of the smaller unit, but never actually did. You don't technically need the spacer, but the 32X does interfere with accessing the CD drive without it.

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer1.png

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer2.png

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer3.png
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 16025

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,506
Anyone interested at all in Night Trap really needs to try the 25th Anniversary release on PS4/Switch. It is so much better than the other versions since you can actually see what's going on in every room at the same time. Its a great production.
 

iamaustrian

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,291
Man, I remember my buddy (huge sega fanboy) having one of these monstrosities.
There were like a trillion of cables and tons of wierdly shaped ac adapters needed to attach that thing to a TV.
After he realized that all its CD games were basicly trash and after he stumbled over the cables for the like 50th time, he dumped it and only kept his beloved mega drive.
Oh and half of the time it didn't even work at all.we had to fiddle with the connectors and plugs and whatsoever all the time. lol
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Actually, the 32X does work with the CDX. Sega was set to release an adapter that allowed one to set the 32X on top of the smaller unit, but never actually did. You don't technically need the spacer, but the 32X does interfere with accessing the CD drive without it.

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer1.png

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer2.png

Sega32XmanualCDXSpacer3.png
Yeah, it does work but iirc Sega couldn't get FCC approval that hooking it up without the spacer is 100% safe, so they say on the box it's not compatible.