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werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,318
Chrono Trigger is widely considered one of the greatest JRPGs (and games) of all-time. There have been JRPGs since then that have been similar in style to Chrono Trigger in one way or another such as Radiant Historia & our own Cosmic Star Heroine, but even when people like these new attempts, the general consensus is that they're not on CT's level. What would a new game need to do to match Chrono Trigger for quality? What attributes do you must care about in a CT-style RPG?
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
Chrono Trigger is widely considered one of the greatest JRPGs (and games) of all-time. There have been JRPGs since then that have been similar in style to Chrono Trigger in one way or another such as Radiant Historia & our own Cosmic Star Heroine, but even when people like these new attempts, the general consensus is that they're not on CT's level. What would a new game need to do to match Chrono Trigger for quality? What attributes do you must care about in a CT-style RPG?
It needs a lot of optional things that are worth going out of the way for. Secrets to find, stuff that expands the story, optional characters to expand your party that have their own stories

Side quests where you dont even realize your doing a side quest (not a checklist with markers)

a good main story of course
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
For me, Chrono Trigger just hit the mark at every level. It had a good length and was well-paced, every character was so likeable (especially the main cast), the soundtrack was sublime, its art was phenomenal, it had a fun premise and story with a super cool late-game surprise, and the battle system was just really robust.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,459
CT is a great, well-rounded game, but many JRPGs are above and beyond its level by now. It's not the end-all-be-all.
 

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
The biggest thing is avoiding filler. Chrono Trigger is an extremely lean game, and the vast majority of JRPG developers haven't been able to do that.
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
For me, Chrono Trigger just hit the mark at every level. It had a good length and was well-paced, every character was so likeable, the soundtrack was sublime, its art was phenomenal, it had a fun premise and story with a super cool late-game surprise, and the battle system was just really robust.

The art style was cool as well. It's so hard for a JRPG to hit the mark on all of these points
 

Deleted member 7883

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,387
have perfect pacing, which a LOT of 21st century JRPGs fail to do. Granted, having perfect pacing is pretty damn hard for a 50+ hour JRPG.

There's other factors for sure, but really what sticks out to me more than anything in Chrono Trigger is the phenomenal pacing.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
Radiant Histora is fantastic but you're right, it's not quite on the same level. I wouldn't mind more time travel JRPGs because CT and Radiant Histora were great. I don't think CT is in a class of its own when it comes to JRPGs though. I think Persona 3, 4 and Xenoblade 1 are better.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,305
It would simply need:

- An amazing and unforgettable cast of characters, not simply one or two
- Masterclass pacing where the game takes off, never lets up, and ends perfectly when it's just at the peak of wearing out its welcome
- A fun and interaction battle system with two to three character combinations, and attacks that are dependent on the geographic alignment of the enemies
- A soundtrack where every single track is a banger
- New Game+
- Be turn-based
- A variety of ways to beat the game with a variety of endings
- Meaningful sidequests that reward the player
- Upon release, stand so clearly above its peers that it remains in GOAT talks decades later

Shouldn't be too difficult.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
Have been around at the primordial ooze era of its genre. It's why the likes of Link to the Past, Tetris, and Super Mario 64 are so regarded, they're fundamentally solid games that influenced everything thing that came after.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
Chrono Trigger is widely considered one of the greatest JRPGs (and games) of all-time. There have been JRPGs since then that have been similar in style to Chrono Trigger in one way or another such as Radiant Historia & our own Cosmic Star Heroine, but even when people like these new attempts, the general consensus is that they're not on CT's level. What would a new game need to do to match Chrono Trigger for quality? What attributes do you must care about in a CT-style RPG?

There's a very strange impression that Chrono trigger was a lot better received than it actually was. Chrono trigger never sold anything near what FF or DQ did. It's basically about as successful as Persona 4-5 are right now. A solid game, but a niche one.

There's not really the data to support that it was a standout that appealed to the kind of broad audiences that make the game worth imitating or emulating.
 
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OP
werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,318
CT is a great, well-rounded game, but many JRPGs are above and beyond its level by now. It's not the end-all-be-all.

There are newer RPGs that I like more than Chrono Trigger which have been mentioned in this thread like Persona 4 Golden & DQ11, but none of them really have the same style as CT (even though DQ11 does feature
time travel
).
 

SlasherMcGirk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,614
Cincinnati
It needs to be firing on all cylinders of what make a good jrpg. It needs 10/10 art, characters, story, battle system, music, pacing ect ect. It's just a really rare thing that doesn't happen often.
 

Elodes

Looks to the Moon
Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,231
The Netherlands
Simple story, fast pacing, great soundtrack. Give me little filler, and as few sidequests as possible.

One of the best ways in which CT employs good pacing, is in constantly changing up its setting and aesthetic tone. This is too good a trick not to re-use.
CT's excellent soundtrack is, imo, its greatest strength. A good 40% of my enjoyment of JRPG's comes from their soundtracks; any extra effort spent on this will pay great dividends.
Good character design is also key. Give me characters whose personality I can instantly identify, from their pose, their first appearance, their weapon of choice. Then, when this shallow standard has been set, allow the story to give them a bit more depth, pleasantly surprising the player without the need to write the next Watchmen in terms of the characters' psychological depth.

EDIT: A lot of people say Chrono Trigger has been bettered since, and is only loved for nostalgia's sake. I'm playing the game for the first time as we speak, and it's still clearly better than almost all JRPG's I've played. There are some I prefer -- the Etrian Odyssey series is stellar, for instance -- but within the type of experience CT tries to be, I think it still stands tall.

2nd EDIT: not related to CT but on the topic of level design and pacing in JRPG's, this is a great article: https://medium.com/@MammonMachine/n...-matters-pacing-and-level-design-3ed043dc3309

To quote from this article:
Etrian Odyssey is a pretty and adorable JRPG, but it is paced much more like a survival horror game! Resources in Etrian Odyssey are extremely limited. It is very expensive to buy healing items, you can't just turn any party member into a healer like you can in Bravely Default, and healing is a resource you can run out of very quickly. It's the same basic systems, the only real differences are just numbers, but number are everything here.

Etrian Odyssey is also a game about exploring. As I explained, Bravely Default has two limiting factors to exploration: resource depletion (to a barely noticeable degree), and wasting the player's time (to an extremely noticeable degree). Etrian Odyssey fixes this by making resource depletion an overwhelmingly greater concern than tedium.
To transport this framework to Chrono Trigger: Chrono Trigger's main strength is that its level design and narrative structure are simple enough for any single area or chapter to end before things get tedious for the player.

For what it's worth, I thought your Cosmic Star Heroine did this pretty well too.
 
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Pachinko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
954
Canada
It needs to be made by the most talented people available regardless of company affiliation. So in this era you'd need to pull people from square , level 5 , monolith , get character designs by the most popular mangaka of today (Oda maybe?) and a scenario that's well written and re-playable.
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Chrono Trigger is a great game but it's certainly not the best JRPG and has been outdone in different areas by many later games. Part of me wonders how much nostalgia plays into people's affection for CT.

When you break CT down what makes it great is its excellent pacing, fun combat, beautiful pixel art and fascinating world.

The sad reality is CT could be improved which makes its lack of a true sequel disappointing. For example its combat has a lot of potential that is never explored properly. I'd like to see more focus on timing in an ATB style battle system. Grandia got there by including the ability to cancel enemy moves.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,784
Brazil
CT is a great, well-rounded game, but many JRPGs are above and beyond its level by now. It's not the end-all-be-all.

Yeah. I love CT but it's like 25th on my best Jrpgs list. Imo Radiant Historia is a better game, even.

The genre has much to learn with CT nonetheless. I guess the best merit of the game is its incredible pacing. It's pretty much the only 20 hours long game that felt like an epic adventure. Every other game in the genre feels too short at this game lenght. It's a really concise experience.

Jrpgs nowadays really need to be more concise experiences.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
There are newer RPGs that I like more than Chrono Trigger which have been mentioned in this thread like Persona 4 Golden & DQ11, but none of them really have the same style as CT (even though DQ11 does feature
time travel
).

I love DQ11, but its second half felt like the pace ground to a halt and the sailing just sucks. The design of the world and all the characters were a joy though. P4 is also among my favorites, but the dungeons were by and large a bore, to me anyway. It being an 80 hour game and having the best ending hidden behind arbitrary dialog choices doesn't help either.

As for it being a factor of nostalgia, I think overall it's still my favorite JRPG and I played it quite late, only on the DS.
 
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Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
There are newer RPGs that I like more than Chrono Trigger which have been mentioned in this thread like Persona 4 Golden & DQ11, but none of them really have the same style as CT (even though DQ11 does feature
time travel
).

FFXIII-2 is probably the closest you're going to get to a modern chrono trigger. The gameplay is almost identical.
 
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OP
werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,318
There's a very strange impression that Chrono trigger was a lot better received than it actually was. Chrono trigger never sold anything near what FF or DQ did. It's basically about as successful as Persona 4-5 are right now. A solid game, but a niche one.

There's not really the data to support that it was a standout that appealed to the kind of broad audiences that make the game worth imitating or emulating.

It wasn't a mega-blockbuster, sure, but it was the 20th best-selling SNES game and sold better than Final Fantasy IV (you're right that most SNES FF & DQ games sold better than it though). And just about every major publication's best 100 video game list of all-time includes it near the top.
 

JoDa

Member
Jan 12, 2018
558
I think pacing and characters is the most important part, chrono trigger is only about 15-20 hours long (100% completed) and the subsequent playthroughs take much less than that so it was a lot easier to get the pacing in a good spot.

The combat should be very engaging and reward playing with your party rather than power building one or two characters.

The story should feel impactful, like the events do make a difference on the game world.

Make the side quests appropriately link up to the main story/characters, for example, the side quest where you gotta rebuild this church by going back and forth in time feels meaningful because it ends up being linked up to frogs back story with Sirius which isn't resolved by just beating the game.

And good music, really good music and a nice aesthetic.
 

lightning16

Member
May 17, 2019
1,763
I'm not the biggest fan of Chrono Trigger (good, solid game but not among my favorites by any means) so it's sorta hard to answer this question.

To me the biggest thing that stood out when playing it was the completely optional but very significant content in the second half of the game. Being able to jump to all these different times and places with significant side content spread out across the game is pretty awesome. Unfortunately I think this is the kind of thing that doesn't necessarily make as much of an impact today where everyone knows everything about new games within hours of the game releasing, but to me it was probably the thing that made the biggest impact.

I'll disagree with the people suggesting pace is the biggest thing, though. I absolutely agree that its pace is stellar up through the Magus fight, but I thought after that the main story beats are rushed through pretty badly and then jarringly slows down to a crawl in the overly long final dungeon. Chrono Trigger's lower playtime is used as an example of something great it has going for it, but my very unpopular opinion I guess is that it really could've used several more hours to expand on its story down the stretch.
 

atlans89

Member
Oct 25, 2017
691
Not every games need to be CT level. Let there be diversity and uniqueness among its own genre. Other genres also try to find its own holy grail and end up with most things trying to be the clone of its predecessor.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
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Aug 6, 2018
15,988
It wasn't a mega-blockbuster, sure, but it was the 20th best-selling SNES game and sold better than Final Fantasy IV (you're right that most SNES FF & DQ games sold better than it though). And just about every major publication's best 100 video game list of all-time includes it near the top.

I can't speak for Japan, but RPGs stateside were in their infancy when IV launched, and cart based games were basically one-and-done in terms of print run. Between the launch of IV and CT, Square made a concerted effort to build up the audience for JRPGs stateside to make the risk of a bigger print run worth the investment. After IV, square released Mystic Quest (designed explicitly for US audiences), Secret of Mana, and FFVI. Evermore (also designed for US audiences) hit the same year as CT, but a few months later. The market was simply different for those kinds of games by the time 1995 rolled around.

CT also benefited greatly from having Toriyama's art all over it when Dragon Ball blew up.

It makes a lot of "best of" lists, but in terms of gameplay and mechanics as a game it's been passed many times over. As mentioned FFXIII-2 pretty much is exactly what a modern CT would end up looking like, and it came and went with little fanfare.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,480
-great soundtrack
-great character art with nice special case animation to give characters a bit of extra personality
-ATB battle system that requires a bit of thought
-interesting new game + stuff
-endgame quest for each party member
-multiple endings
-optional characters
-be full of joy
 

Deleted member 3040

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
893
As someone who first played Chrono Trigger not too long ago, I wouldn't say it's some sort of unrivaled masterpiece. What it does have, however, is a slick pacing and beginning. I felt the game started to lose focus later on, though.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
The perfect RPG could come out tomorrow and it would still not be considered on Trigger's level.

The issue has nothing to do with the genre but the absurd cult around this game and unironically thinking that nothing surpassed a 25 years old game and there was no flaw in it
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,988
I like FF13-2, but other than having time travel, it's not much like CT in style with gameplay or story/characters.

the gameplay isn't really very different. There are no random encounters, monsters are engaged on the dungeon map with a party of three.
The story and characters are obviously different, but not so different that one would be unappealing to the other. Both are loaded with typical JRPG tropes and fanservice.

If Square were to have made a CT-2, it would have ended up looking a hell of a lot like FFXIII-2.

FFXIII-2 is the longer of the two games by quite a bit though, which is what you'd expect of a modern game. You simply can't get away with a AAA RPG that only runs 12 hours start to finish anymore.
 

ContraWars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,517
Canada
Writing above all else. Characters in all the new JRPGs and their retro clones are horrible. Trying to be quirky or full of inside jokes, reading like awful anime fan fiction. I would sooner compare them all to the Coldsteel the Hedgeheg meme than classic games like Chrono Trigger.
 

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
The locales were extremely varied and the people you met in each location gave an interesting glimpse into what life was like during that time. Also as a result of the extremely varied locales you had great variation in enemies. What other game had you fighting little green troll things, then sewer mutants, robots, dinosaurs, mountain gurus, wizards, dragon tanks, etc.

The music was also exemplary. Whenever Glenn (frog) would talk his theme fit perfectly with his knightly way of speaking. Gato's theme fit his rap and was catchy. Everyone knows Robo's uplifting theme.

The story telling was just a breakthrough at the time as well. The trail for kidnapping Marle was fun. Robo getting bum rushed by the other robots was unforgettable. Also as I mentioned just talking to the locals gave you a real good idea if how miserable the people in each time were (for different reasons).
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
the gameplay isn't really very different. There are no random encounters, monsters are engaged on the dungeon map with a party of three.
The story and characters are obviously different, but not so different that one would be unappealing to the other. Both are loaded with typical JRPG tropes and fanservice.

FFXIII-2 is the longer of the two games by quite a bit though, which is what you'd expect of a modern game. You simply can't get away with a AAA RPG that only runs 12 hours start to finish anymore.

Fanservice in Chrono Trigger? Huh.
 

Cactuar

Banned
Nov 30, 2018
5,878
Chrono Trigger is widely considered one of the greatest JRPGs (and games) of all-time. There have been JRPGs since then that have been similar in style to Chrono Trigger in one way or another such as Radiant Historia & our own Cosmic Star Heroine, but even when people like these new attempts, the general consensus is that they're not on CT's level. What would a new game need to do to match Chrono Trigger for quality? What attributes do you must care about in a CT-style RPG?

Graphics:
Here's one thing people may not get when they make these retro-like games in an attempt to capture FFVI or Chrono Trigger vibes. At the actual time of their release, they were not retro. When Chrono Trigger came out it was one of the best looking video games ever. Cutting edge. The same for Final Fantasy VI, the same for Final Fantasy VII. Like it or not, the top of the line graphics played a part in CT's legacy and how it was received at the time, and has helped carry it on to this day. (Again, same with FFVI and VII).

So when a "retro" game is made to capture Chrono Trigger (Square has been guilty of this themselves with I Am Setsuna), they make the graphics in the old school style, but forget that at the time that game's legacy was made it was not "old school."

To capture what Chrono Trigger brought to the table, one of the major elements is you need to deliver one of if not the best looking RPG ever, because that's what Chrono Trigger was when it came out.

BEYOND GRAPHICS:

Time Travel (or how I learned to love the Epoch)
Chrono Trigger had a lot of very unique elements than even Chrono Cross did not try to emulate. No. 1 was free time travel, at any time, at any moment, to any various periods in history. The ability to go to one location and have it be modern, go to that same location millions of years in the pass and see what it was like, or visit the exact same location in post apocalyptic times - CT time travel just added to the amazing journey/experience and it hasn't been recreated yet. The sheer amount of time and resources it would take nowadays to make one world five different ways, and write a story with a cohesive time travel element (Avengers Endgame joked about this, how movies always fuck up time travel), very few could do it these days, and do it with the budget needed to make it similar to the same AAA graphic experience CT was in 1995.

Battle system
Again, at the time it was incredibly unique. The team up moves were amazing, the ability to actually SEE enemies before you engaged them was a game changer. I don't know if many games did it before Chrono Trigger, but certainly after it started an avalanche, and it is pretty much the norm now. To the point where now if you make a JRPG, it's expected. Back then, it's one of the tings that made Chrono Trigger stand out. It wasn't a "chore" to play like a Final Fantasy because you could avoid random battles better. This meant Chrono was looked at as more "fun" than Final Fantasy and in addition to the amazing graphics thus was more accessible to people who wouldn't normally play JRPGs.

New Game+
Every game has new game plus these days. Chrono Trigger invented it and named it. But again, much like the thing about AAA graphics being lost on a lot of people in terms of CT's impact, it's also lost on just why NG+ was so impactful for CT, and why putting it in any random game doesn't matter as much. Chrono Trigger was a bout time travel, so when you started up NG+, you could literally time travel directly to the final boss and kill him! You can literally do this at any point in NG+! The idea of New Game+ was made for Chrono Trigger because of it's time travel aspects, and it's never been implemented better in a video game since.

Miscellaneous
This goes without saying, but amazing story, characters and moments. The easy part, right?
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,378
The issue has nothing to do with the genre but the absurd cult around this game and unironically thinking that nothing surpassed a 25 years old game and there was no flaw in it
Next year Tactics Ogre will be 25 years old, and no SRPG has surpassed that :P

I'm not sure if anything can be the 'next' Chrono Trigger. I think of that game more as a dream team / really cool collection of talent. DQ8 is kind of the same, with Hino and Horii (again) coming together and making something super special and charming.

The best elements of Chrono Trigger are the pacing, the high concept, and the art.
 

Munba

Member
Oct 27, 2017
336
"What would a JRPG need to do to be on Chrono Trigger's level?"

Need to be Chrono Trigger 2.