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Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,532
Okay so post some examples. I have yet to find a jRPG that's as good and has such perfect pacing.

Specifically in regards to pacing, or overall quality? Because they're different things. CT absolutely has good pacing... but that's a byproduct of its brevity, even by the standards of its peers, let alone the higher sums of today's non-indie games. Judging it best by that alone isn't a very comprehensive appraisal.

People speak of CT as if it's perfect, when it has flaws like any other game. For all its combat's snappiness, there's little real challenge to be had. For all the interconnectivity of its time periods, its world-building doesn't have much depth -- nor does its writing in general; it's just a fun romp (which is fine, but not what comes to mind when I think "best RPG ever").

There might not be too many games that match its breakneck pacing, but conversely there are many that dramatically exceed it in other -- sometimes most -- areas. Plot, character writing, world-building, combat mechanics, challenge, etc.: there are better games.

Make no mistake, it's wonderful. A testament to the collective experience of its renowned development team. But a big part of its placement as this unsurpassable ideal is, frankly, nostalgia, because much of Era is a part of an age group for which it was formative. At the end of the day, it's a 25yo game in a genre not lacking for quality and iteration.
 

Skulldead

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Nobody mention how Badass villain have to be ! I mean Magus was like i really want to kick is ass even is i know he his very strong. Boss design was really out of the league. They all feel dangerous and different from one each and other.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,170
Toronto
The main thing Chrono Trigger has going for it is nostalgia. It's a great game, but at this point it's probably better in our memories than in reality.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
The thing Chrono Trigger has that most other RPG's don't is the perfect fairy tale dreamlike "feel" when playing the game. The characters are lovable, the environments vivid, the time travelling aspect wondrous and imaginative. Mix in a god-tier soundtrack that sucks you into the world and excellent visuals with sprite and Toriyama artwork and baby you got a stew goin.

The battle system is also one of my favorite parts because it makes excellent use of its ATB, techs and combos systems. Every character feels useful in their own way and you really want to figure out the best double and triple techs for your favorite characters. Makes party building very strategic.
 

Nakho

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,288
The nostalgia claims are stupid. A good game is a good game, period. I played CT in 2012, when I was 21. It's still the best JRPG I've ever played.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,313
Feels like I walked into a Chrono Cross thread with the amount of posts dismissing Chrono Trigger's fans as just nostalgic, haha.

For the question of the thread though, that's entirely subjective. People look for different things in games and for some(like myself) it holds a very high bar, while for others it may not hit all the notes they want.
And that's fine, we don't need more fighting over this game.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,744
I think one thing about CT that can't be discounted is how brisk the battle system feels. It isn't really that much faster than a Final Fantasy game, but because enemies are moving around and characters animate a lot, it FEELS speedier and more energetic than a standard "stand in a line, trade hits" battle system like other SNES games of the time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,535
Nostalgia or not, Chrono Trigger just hit everything right on every level. The music, the story, the time travel and world building, the lovable characters and interesting side quests, the length and NG+, multiple endings, the battle system. Its just came together perfectly. The atmosphere was for the most part very light hearted, fun, with elements of a saturday morning cartoon. It would have to nail every aspect very well and most JRPGs nowadays get something or multiple things wrong.
 

Rad

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,068
It's a good JRPG but it's no Suikoden 2. Still the best story in a JRPG.
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
Radiant Historia was probably hurt by being handheld only, because some people just refuse to play handheld games. If it had been also on a home console physically, even more people would be singing its praises now.
 
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werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
I'm definitely not. It was around 12 hours, definitely less than 15 on my first run through on SNES. it was nowhere near 20-25. That cart is long since gone though.

https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=1705 - Nearly a thousand time submissions on the game and the media time is around 25 hours and a rushed playthrough is around 18 hours. The only way I can imagine a 1st time playthrough taking 12 hours is if you were using a Game Genie or bought a used copy and were playing on someone's NG+ save file.
 

PerrierChaud

Member
Feb 24, 2019
1,010
DBvqYZ5XgAI4wHt.jpg

Lmao you people are being wild disrespectful toward the product of the union of the three baddest motherfuckers to ever grace video game history
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,019
https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=1705 - Nearly a thousand time submissions on the game and the media time is around 25 hours and a rushed playthrough is around 18 hours. The only way I can imagine a 1st time playthrough taking 12 hours is if you were using a Game Genie or bought a used copy and were playing on someone's NG+ save file.

Nope, just burned through the game extremely quickly. I finished FFIV absurdly fast as well- my character levels were in the mid to high 30s when i beat that game in the early 90s.

The game is really, REALLY easy and light on side content. I have no idea how anyone could take 25 hours to finish that.

You can call bullshit all you want, but i've been salty about that game for nearly 25 years, and if you want to dig through my comments on the old forum I'm pretty sure you'll find me saying the same thing about that game more than once since i joined it in 06.
 

Cactuar

Banned
Nov 30, 2018
5,878
https://howlongtobeat.com/game.php?id=1705 - Nearly a thousand time submissions on the game and the media time is around 25 hours and a rushed playthrough is around 18 hours. The only way I can imagine a 1st time playthrough taking 12 hours is if you were using a Game Genie or bought a used copy and were playing on someone's NG+ save file.

Yeah, not gonna lie, that 12 hour first time claim sounds like horseshit to me as well.
 

Worldshaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,939
Michigan
I get annoyed at anyone who thinks Trigger is loved simply because of nostalgia. Triggers only flaw is that it lacks a difficulty setting. I have yet to play an RPG that has surpassed it, but I've played some that have gotten close.

The game would need:
- Cutting edge graphics for it's time.
- To have fantastic pacing. I don't like wasting my time anymore.
- Well written and interesting characters (Why did Cross throw in so many filler characters?)
- Be highly replayable / Have a meaningful NG+ that actually makes sense.
- A soundtrack filled with absolute bangers.
- Meaningful side quests that have plot relevance and meaning. I'm sick of padded side quests that add nothing of value.
- Multiple endings that vary on what choices you've made.
- Multiple difficulty settings that require tactics and not just number tweaks.
- Would require the best of the best to come together (which is unlikely in todays gaming industry)

I can't think of any game that hits all of these check points.
 
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werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
The game is really, REALLY easy and light on side content. I have no idea how anyone could take 25 hours to finish that.

The game is definitely on the easy side, but it's not light on side content. Other than FF6's "Most of the second half of the game is optional" or Lufia's 2 100-floor Ancient Cave roguelike mode, I'd be hard pressed to think of another RPG of that era that has more optional side content.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
Be awesome at everything. Art, music, story and gameplay.

Most importantly keep it short and replayable with every moment being fun and memorable.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
Expecting another JRPG to hit the same balance as Trigger is probably too tall of an order. There have been many JRPGs that have done things better than it.

But it certainly stands apart as the most balanced game in the genre. All aspects of it are remarkably high quality and nothing about any aspect of the game stands out too strongly above or beneath the others in terms of quality. Everyone on the project executed their role at the highest level.

In some ways, the game is so good it's almost unremarkable because there is nothing you can really point to in order to describe why it's so great. It's in many ways a package that is far greater than the sum of its parts.

It's just so darn likeable and never takes itself too seriously. But the plot still manages to be very epic in the end.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,744
Nope, just burned through the game extremely quickly. I finished FFIV absurdly fast as well- my character levels were in the mid to high 30s when i beat that game in the early 90s.

The game is really, REALLY easy and light on side content. I have no idea how anyone could take 25 hours to finish that.

You can call bullshit all you want, but i've been salty about that game for nearly 25 years, and if you want to dig through my comments on the old forum I'm pretty sure you'll find me saying the same thing about that game more than once since i joined it in 06.

This kinda feels like you just missed a lot of side content. The game isn't HARD, but as a kid I remember spending 30 or 40 minutes alone fighting the Son of Sun boss.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,019
This kinda feels like you just missed a lot of side content. The game isn't HARD, but as a kid I remember spending 30 or 40 minutes alone fighting the Son of Sun boss.

while possible, I also played through the game several times while I owned it, so I've seen everything there is to see in the game.

it's the easiest JRPG on the system not named Mystic Quest, and even that's a close call.

The game is definitely on the easy side, but it's not light on side content. Other than FF6's "Most of the second half of the game is optional" or Lufia's 2 100-floor Ancient Cave roguelike mode, I'd be hard pressed to think of another RPG of that era that has more optional side content.

Ogre Battle: MOTBQ.

If you go back to the NES era, almost all of the dragon warrior games except the first were way beefier games as well.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
Final Fantasy VI had definitely outclassed that game. It was an infinitely bolder game with incredible setpieces. Chrono Trigger doesn't deliver to the same extent.

Trigger for me is just a game that doesn't outstay its welcome, not a game I would have played much more of. It was already on thin ice (everyone who says the game doesn't have fetch quests are misremembering the game,the carpenter quest alone requires you several back and forth)
 

Worldshaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,939
Michigan
while possible, I also played through the game several times while I owned it, so I've seen everything there is to see in the game.

it's the easiest JRPG on the system not named Mystic Quest, and even that's a close call.



Ogre Battle: MOTBQ.

If you go back to the NES era, almost all of the dragon warrior games except the first were way beefier games as well.

While Chrono Trigger is easy I think saying it lacks content is kind of silly. Theres so many side quests, and little secrets hidden throughout the game, not to mention it has like 12 or 13 endings (which the developers made a core part of the games story). I remember beating it countless times looking to find new ones. Even if you think Triggers side quests are "on the light side" I don't think anyone can objectively say they didn't add something significant to the games story. Not a single piece of filler to them.

Ogre Battle isn't really in the same category as Final Fantasy, Lufia, or Chrono Trigger. Its better to compare that to Fire Emblem, or Bahamut Lagoon.

It's ok that the game didn't click for you, but I think you're being a little unfair to it. Theres plenty of games I don't like (Breath of the Wild) that I can still be objective about.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
I've only played bits of Chrono Trigger so I'm probably not gonna make the best contribution to this thread, but first I wanna say nostalgia probably isn't as big an aspect as some might think.

I messed around with a bit of the middle back when the game came out and I found a copy at a friend's house. I thought the graphics and time travel aspect were really impressive. Later I bought the DS version in 2008 and played a little bit into it and was really impressed. The UI felt a lot smarter than even many then-recent JRPGs (probably new to the DS port), the setting at least felt interesting without resorting to florid dialogue and hours of cut scenes like later Square games, the story incorporated player choice in a way I totally did not see coming. While I'm still not a huge fan of turn-based battles in traditional JRPGs, what I played of Chrono Trigger felt less bloated than a lot of JRPGs but still unique and interesting.

The thing is, I don't think a retro-style RPG can feel today the way Chrono Trigger must have felt in 1995. I imagine CT at the time was considered at or near the pinnacle of 16-bit console RPGs. The RPG that comes to my mind that takes a similar position in the western gaming consciousness today is actually The Witcher 3, and before it Skyrim. The next upcoming RPG everybody is viewing with similar anticipation is Cyberpunk 2077.

I'm not saying it would have to be a WRPG, but I think a big part of the reason a large chunk of the console audience, maybe just the western console audience, likes RPGs is because they tend to offer worlds that are large and immersive. That bit of Chrono Trigger kinda felt like that to me back in the 90's, and maybe it did for a lot of other people who played CT, Final Fantasy VI, and Final Fantasy VII back then too -- they were the biggest and most engrossing virtual worlds available in console games at the time. When is the last time a JRPG has even taken that crown? I don't think JRPGs ever took it back since Oblivion came out in 2006. The Final Fantasy XV demo to me felt like it was simply trying to catch up to what western open-world games had accomplished and not surpass them.

Aside from that aspect though, just being a well-written Japanese RPG that gains a lot of word of mouth in the western sphere, I think people are right when they bring up Persona 4 Golden because to me that feels like it was the last JRPG like that which had a similar effect, and it came out in 2012 and is an enhanced port of a 2008 game. Maybe DQ11 has taken that status now.

What metric are we talking about though? CT didn't sell THAT much back in the day or more recently. It's just one of the most critically-acclaimed RPGs. This year you could say The Outer Worlds and Disco Elysium are getting a similar sort of critical acclaim for being well-written RPGs that aren't the biggest games around. I'm still wondering why a new JRPG can't have a high-definition 2D production style like Disco Elysium or Pillars of Eternity.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,313
it's the easiest JRPG on the system not named Mystic Quest, and even that's a close call.
I would argue FFVI is at least as easy as, maybe even easier than, CT. Being able to turn everyone into the same mage throws out any need for party setups.
It's definitely not 12 hours on a normal play through.
12 hours is about twice as long as a 100% speedrun.
That's probably possible for a first playthrough, but one would still need to rush, haha.
 

FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,036
Chrono Trigger is widely considered one of the greatest JRPGs (and games) of all-time. There have been JRPGs since then that have been similar in style to Chrono Trigger in one way or another such as Radiant Historia & our own Cosmic Star Heroine, but even when people like these new attempts, the general consensus is that they're not on CT's level. What would a new game need to do to match Chrono Trigger for quality? What attributes do you must care about in a CT-style RPG?
That's not how you spell Panzer Dragoon Saga!

Honestly i've never played Chrono Trigger despite being a huge JRPG fan as it's never been on a console I had at the time. It got a DS port when I was still playing on that but I just never got to playing it....
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,215
Many many MAAAANNNYYYYY JRPGs were released after CT and topped it already.

Just have an epic adventure with memorable cast of characters and solid battle system and amazing OST, which were all achieved already shortly after CT was released.
 
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werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
I'm still wondering why a new JRPG can't have a high-definition 2D production style like Disco Elysium or Pillars of Eternity.

I'd love to see high-def 2D JRPG. As it is, when I play Western high-res 2D RPGs like Shadowrun:HK & Tyranny, I just think how much better they would look if they had graphics like CT. I really don't like the realistic isometric D&D look.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,744
Many many MAAAANNNYYYYY JRPGs were released after CT and topped it already.

Just have an epic adventure with memorable cast of characters and solid battle system and amazing OST, which were all achieved already shortly after CT was released.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The PS1 era had a huge glut of JRPGs but most of them were incredibly generic. Chrono Trigger did a lot of things extremely well, or did them for the first time. That's why it's important and that's why it's special.
 

Bladelaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,715
For me the things that make Chrono Trigger my favorite game of all time:
-Simple story well told: Everything fits together, the time travel aspects are internally consistent, the conclusion ("main" ending) is a satisfying send off for everyone without a ton of filler junk at the end.

-Characters I care about: Everyone gets a piece of the spotlight throughout the adventure showing why they're on the team and why the quest matters to them. It's an ensemble even with Crono, Marle, and Lucca as the main focus.

-Music: My favorite SNES soundtrack by every metric I have. The only thing I ever imported from JP was the full CT soundtrack.

-Battle system: By skipping random encounters (most of the time) the player feels in control of when a fight starts. The tech system encourages different team makeups just to experiment and the triple techs all look great. ATB is probably dated today but I still love it and and anything looking to capture that magic should probably have it.

-Generally tight experience: There's no grinding unless you want every tech for every character, the plot is always moving, there's always something to do, and you can choose when you're ready to end the game. You don't have to do any of the Fated Hour to win but by skipping it you're definitely going to be under leveled for the end giving you some degree of challenge if you want it. Even the millennial fair mini-games play into the story. Everything in the game serves a purpose and the game is always driving you toward a natural conclusion.

-NG+: By including multiple endings depending on when you finish the game they added a layer of complexity to the time travel narrative as well as giving the player a reason to play once you were done. Subsequent playthroughs are much easier naturally but there's still the major bonus challenges of solo Lavos, Ocean Palace Lavos, or Ultimate Spekkio to test yourself.

If a game could string these together I'd play it immediately. Hell it's why I backed Cosmic Star Heroine.
 

BebopCola

Member
Jul 17, 2019
2,062
Characters I like. CT has characters with big simple personalities. It takes like 10 sentences and a few cool poses to fully get each of them. I like each of them too... there are not many casts were I like all the characters. Not a helpful statement, I know. Also If they don't all fulfil a function in battle with some obvious unique advantages for each then you probably have too many.

This is what I wanted to touch on. The cast has no extraneous members to it, including Magus who's optional. None of them are one-note characters, and almost everything they all do has an impact on the narrative.

In a lot of JRPG's I've played, you get a brief questline or blerb about who a character is when they join you, and then whatever plotlines were solely about them disappear for the sake of grander narrative, and the character gets relegated to just be a platform for unique abilities they might have. (Or if you're Chrono Cross, they are all garbage placeholders with zero depth and no reason to keep any of them around other than Serge, Harle, and Kidd.)
 

Worldshaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,939
Michigan
Many many MAAAANNNYYYYY JRPGs were released after CT and topped it already.

Just have an epic adventure with memorable cast of characters and solid battle system and amazing OST, which were all achieved already shortly after CT was released.

You're allowed to have your opion, but I'd love to see 10 JRPGs you consider better than CT? For the record CT isn't my favorite game of all time, but I consider it the gold standard for JRPGs.
 
Nov 11, 2017
1,041
I would hard disagree with the assertion that DQXI tops CT or really comes anywhere close. I'm like 40 hours in and while I love the characters and style, the soundtrack sucks, the main story is mostly generic, and the environments are kinda ugly. I'm having fun overall but it doesn't even break top 10 for me.
 
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werezompire

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
You're allowed to have your opion, but I'd love to see 10 JRPGs you consider better than CT? For the record CT isn't my favorite game of all time, but I consider it the gold standard for JRPGs.

Don't know about better, but here are 10 JRPGs I like noticeably more than CT:

P4G
P5
DQ11
SMT:Nocturne
BoF: Dragon Quarter
Lunar:EB
EO4
Wild Arms XF
FF10
Xenoblade Chronicles

None of them are in the same style as Chrono Trigger though which is what I'm particularly interested in.
 

MrDoctor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
375
USA
I'd love to see high-def 2D JRPG. As it is, when I play Western high-res 2D RPGs like Shadowrun:HK & Tyranny, I just think how much better they would look if they had graphics like CT. I really don't like the realistic isometric D&D look.
uh, kiseki? sky's assets are hella dated compared to your examples, though. shame that japan is gonna japan and just let their isometric-style games rot in the past.
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,951
Radiant Historia was probably hurt by being handheld only, because some people just refuse to play handheld games. If it had been also on a home console physically, even more people would be singing its praises now.

Radiant History fails spectacularly in one aspect where Chrono Trigger excells: combat. RH gets so bogged down by overly long encounters that it wears out its welcome halfway through the game. The last 5-10 hours are an absolute slog.

The combat system was good and fun, but there were just far too many encounters, and those encounters took far too long. If the number of encounters was cut down drastically we would have a much better game.

I really wish some RPGs would experiment with battles and the experience curve a bit. I don't need to fight hundreds to thousands of battles over the course of a single game. Give me a few dozen challenging encounters.