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Silky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,522
Georgia
Ask the guy who changed the name of his CRPG "No Truce with The Furies" to Disco Elysium because it was impossible to talk about the game without furry jokes cropping up.

Blame that more on the shitty enthusiast jaw-draggers who are incapable of discussing a game and how it's percieved through the market beyond its name instead of a group of people that have nothing to do with this discussion

But I mean that's apparently too hard to do this is the same minority queue of people who still make Sonic jokes in 2019 so I can't expect y'all to think criticially
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
I think Full Metal Furies' name worked against it. Not because it's close to "furries", it just sounds like a bunch of bunch of video game nouns strung together like a gfycat URL. There's nothing there to hold on to. You don't hear it and go, "Oh, hell yes, Full Metal Furies? I love those."

Honestly, not to be harsh, but the gameplay footage/screens I've seen give me the same feeling. There's nothing on-screen to make me want to play it. Same with Guacamelee 2, which I've heard people lament the failure of. I look at screens—it looks like a 2D platformer. All set on those, thanks!
 

Buckle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41,116
Full Metal Furies bombing was a shame but they're working on Rogue legacy 2 so they're probably going to bounce back pretty well financially.

Goddamn....Rogue Legacy was so fucking good.
 

OmniBaneSolid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
182
It was a crowed year. It sucks because most of those games are great.
it doesn't help that Steam is having discovery issues that are crippling indie games. Valve needs to fix this before it gets out of hand.
 

garion333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,722
I got Full Metal Furies. It's an incredible game. It really is excellent. But I really do think most people misread the title as "Furries" and just walk the other way. The discussion of this was rampant since release and they can't change the title because the story is based on some greek mythology based around the Furies. It's just what they're called.

And the other half of those who paid it no mind are those who saw "co-op" and noped out.

Then there's the third half (yes, joke) who saw beat em up and noped out.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,351
I skipped Full Metal Furies due to assuming that its focus on co-op meant that the solo play would be lacking and I haven't seen any talk about whether that's true or not, but I've been burned on enough games that claimed they were still playable solo when it was clear they didn't really bother to balance the experience to be playable without other players around.

I'm a big Behemoth fan, but Pit People joins BattleBlock Theater as games from them that I lost interest in after loving Castle Crashers and Alien Hominid. Pit People's development/publicity was kind of stretched out over a long period of time, especially when it was called Game 4 and I was excited for it then, but was burned out on it by the time it was actually done. It's cool that they try new genres with each game, but I think Supergiant Games has done a better job of that while keeping a similar style and feel to each of their games.

I wouldn't be surprised if making your indie game exclusive to Xbox One, as far as consoles are concerned, is also a factor in it. I don't know why they'd do poorly on Steam with them being follow-ups to popular Steam games. Maybe FMF will get a bump with the recent Switch release, but I haven't seen much chatter, especially with its sale on the eShop.

For me, hollow knight stole its lunch. Hollow knight was so damn good I know guacamelee 2 will pale in comparison. And isn't it still only available on ps4?
PS4/Steam at launch, Switch in December, and XB1 next week.
 

Gnorman

Banned
Jan 14, 2018
2,945
I think part of the problem is that indie devs mostly start from scratch with every new release. I bet a lot of the people that bought and enjoyed Rogue Legacy for example won't have a clue who the devs are, let alone pay close enough attention to know when they've got a new game coming out.
 

SheriffMcDuck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
954
Saying the name is bad doesnt explain why so many people here WHO KNOW it's not actually "Furries" didn't buy the game. Or even show much interest in it.

What's the reasoning behind why YOU didn't play it? Maybe that explains why a rando would pass it over. Maybe. Maaaybe. But it certainly doesn't explain why you all ignored it. That's like saying "LOL THE WII IS A BAD NAME" and then not buying it FOR that reason. I'm confused. People who read can't use this as an excuse.

I mean, you asked why the games bombed. And it is a pretty bad name that I'm sure turned a few people off.

My reasoning for not buying either Pit People or FMF is that there a bunch of games that I had more interest in almost all of last year. I couldn't tell you when either released, even, because there was always something I was looking forward to. Monster Hunter to SoTC to God of War to Detroit to Octopath to Yakuza to Dragon Quest, Spiderman, Valkyria and Red Dead.

FMF was doubly out of reach for me because none of my friends cared about it when we saw what it was. Playing a brawler solo or with randoms isn't something that I would jump at.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
In the case of Full Metal Furies felt like it just sort of dropped out of nowhere and it's not like would be immediately appealing even if you were a huge fan of rogue legacy the two are basically nothing alike (at least from eyeballing them).

And I don't know how guacamelee 2 sold but I mean the first guacamelee is a really good metroidvania but Guacamelee 2 release near the end of a period that was kind of flush with really good metroidvanias with the promise of more on the way. I just saw no reason to buy it at launch.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
Good lord, people are obsessed with the name.
Saying the name is bad doesnt explain why so many people here WHO KNOW it's not actually "Furries" didn't buy the game. Or even show much interest in it.

What's the reasoning behind why YOU didn't play it? Maybe that explains why a rando would pass it over. Maybe. Maaaybe. But it certainly doesn't explain why you all ignored it. That's like saying "LOL THE WII IS A BAD NAME" and then not buying it FOR that reason. I'm confused. People who read can't use this as an excuse.

In order to sell your indie game, you have to pass through several escalating levels of player interest.

1. The player has heard of your game.
2. The player looks into your game.
3. The player wants to play your game.
4. The player wants to buy your game.

A bad name for your game makes it difficult to get to the 2nd stage - if they hear the name, they immediately discount it.

Looking at the Steam page, there's practically no story pitch at all. It's all lists of gameplay features and when they mention story at all, it's mentioned like a feature (20,000 words! The story has secrets!). It's a mistake that I've made myself - lists of gameplay features can be attractive to certain people, but the way you attract a lot of people quickly is with intriguing premises & fun characters.

So you look into the game and discover that it's a brawler (a niche genre) with a heavy emphasis on multiplayer (which based on past experience with different games usually means it's not very fun in single-player) and the developers treat the story like an afterthought in their promotional material (but 20k words is way too many words for a non-story focused brawler) and that's not a great pitch.

Trying to sell someone on buying a game based on quality gameplay is the hardest thing you can do. People can see great graphics & hear great music and get intrigued by a great story premise in trailers, but you can't feel how good gameplay is without actually playing the game yourself. A game that is trying to sell based on the gameplay desperately needs a quality demo to let people test the game out for themselves.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,176
Indonesia
I think for indie devs, immediately creating a new IP after your successful game before is not a good idea. Fans might have followed what the studio is up to, but the majority of people who bought the previous games don't. You can put "From the developer of successful x indie game", but before people reach that stage, you need to convince people to be interested in your game first, which is by the name of your game. Rogue Legacy 2 would be more successful than Full Metal Furies, not because the 'Furries', but because people are already aware of the Rogue Legacy brand.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
I think for indie devs, immediately creating a new IP after your successful game before is not a good idea. Fans might have followed what the studio is up to, but the majority of people who bought the previous games don't. You can put "From the developer of successful x indie game", but before people reach that stage, you need to convince people to be interested in your game first, which is by the name of your game. Rogue Legacy 2 would be more successful than Full Metal Furies, not because the 'Furries', but because people are already aware of the Rogue Legacy brand.

The problem with that approach is that even though Rogue Legacy 2 would probably be more successful than FMF, Rogue Legacy 2 would also probably be less successful than Rogue Legacy 1. Rogue Legacy was an original game, but Rogue Legacy 2 has to compete with Rogue Legacy 1 - specifically, you have to convince people who already bought Rogue Legacy to be willing to pay money for more of a similar experience to something they already own and have played.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,176
Indonesia
The problem with that approach is that even though Rogue Legacy 2 would probably be more successful than FMF, Rogue Legacy 2 would also probably be less successful than Rogue Legacy 1. Rogue Legacy was an original game, but Rogue Legacy 2 has to compete with Rogue Legacy 1 - specifically, you have to convince people who already bought Rogue Legacy to be willing to pay money for more of a similar experience to something they already own and have played.
You're right. I was about to address that too in my post.

Not many indie sequels found success. Because most people have already satisfied with the first game, and people have very high expectations out of the sequel.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
I think generally the best approach for indies is to do new games in the same genre. Like SuperGiant has made a name for themselves with doing high quality Action/RPGs but all 4 of their games are their own thing. And if they wanted to go back and do a Bastion 2 now, enough time has passed that a new Bastion game could actually be a big deal.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,362
The Stussining
It was a crowed year. It sucks because most of those games are great.
it doesn't help that Steam is having discovery issues that are crippling indie games. Valve needs to fix this before it gets out of hand.
There will never be a solution to this problem. Hundreds of high quality indie games come out each year. On top of that all of those brand new games are also competing against the thousands of games already on steam. All valve can do is put band aids on the issue.

Anyway yea it sucks always sad to see new projects fail. Shame that a lot of indies that had some clout couldn't get anything to stick either.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
Singapore
I bought two indie darling bombs in December on the Steam sale - The Missing and Black Bird. Both by acclaimed Japanese weirdo devs. No one even talks about them. Lol.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Furies was great, perhaps even better than that. Its bad sales make me very sad, as I had a lot of fun playing it with my brother.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,018
Y'all slept on guacamelee 2. That didn't get nearly the attention the first game got but it was even better
Didn't realize it had released, although I didn't really care for the original anyway.

I bought two indie darling bombs in December on the Steam sale - The Missing and Black Bird. Both by acclaimed Japanese weirdo devs. No one even talks about them. Lol.

Black Bird got a bit of buzz on the Switch side iirc.
 

eseqko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,390
I was excited about Guacamelee 2, except by the time it came out on Switch, it seemed like the reception was tepid on PC and PS4 that I just assumed the game was bad. I guess I'll check it out when it goes on sale.
 

Frunkalicious

Member
Oct 28, 2017
287
Some interesting perspectives in this thread and I think this;
I think generally the best approach for indies is to do new games in the same genre. Like SuperGiant has made a name for themselves with doing high quality Action/RPGs but all 4 of their games are their own thing. And if they wanted to go back and do a Bastion 2 now, enough time has passed that a new Bastion game could actually be a big deal.
is pretty much spot on.

Even as someone who actively seeks information about upcoming games its easy to miss alot of them. Developers with only one release can be hard to remember and if the sequel is something completely different, I might not even realize its from the same dev. This can happen even if I'm a big fan of their previous game.
 

The Argus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,291
Honestly unless there is a massive sale (like Hollow Knight had late December on Switch, or the Steam sales that once were), I don't ever buy indie games. I wait for them on Gold, GamePass, Humble, or PSN+.

The last "indie" games I bought full price were Cities Skyline and Planet Coaster. Those were titles I knew would give me dozens and dozens of hours of fun, from devs I knew.

Spelunky 2 tho. Day One. PSN+ got me hooked.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
Singapore
Black Bird got a bit of buzz on the Switch side iirc.
Let's see...

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bl...-fantasy-zone-meets-a-broadway-musical.39809/
Announcment thread for Switch - 18 replies

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bl...-switch-eshop-out-on-oct-18th-in-japan.72697/
Release date thread - 3 replies

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bl...s-on-switch-steam-in-na-eu-on-oct-18th.74246/
New thread confirming worldwide release - 17 replies

https://www.resetera.com/threads/black-bird-ot-the-little-match-girl-strikes-back.78091/
OT - 48 replies

Yeah I don't think buzz is the right word here.... haha.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,351
I was excited about Guacamelee 2, except by the time it came out on Switch, it seemed like the reception was tepid on PC and PS4 that I just assumed the game was bad. I guess I'll check it out when it goes on sale.
It's great, but it came out right after Dead Cells and everybody wanted to keep playing and talking about Dead Cells that drowned out chatter about Guacamelee 2.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,018

LOL.

With regards to the topic, Frozen Synapse 2 bombed hard as well.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
I'd love to know where you all get your news about new indie games like these because they somehow flew under my radar and they're the sort of games I'd love to know about. Same goes for Cross Code. Looks awesome, but I only heard about it via word of mouth. Actually, I didn't hear about it until the dev for Tangledeep posted pictures in their Discord chat and said nice things about it.

Is there a good single source for new indies? From the replies in this thread, I'd guess not but I figured I'd ask.
 

OmniBaneSolid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
182
There will never be a solution to this problem. Hundreds of high quality indie games come out each year. On top of that all of those brand new games are also competing against the thousands of games already on steam. All valve can do is put band aids on the issue.

Anyway yea it sucks always sad to see new projects fail. Shame that a lot of indies that had some clout couldn't get anything to stick either.
I meant that there is a algorithm bug that prevent some games from being on the discovery queue.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,378
Thanks for reminding me that I bought Black Bird in the recent sale but haven't actually booted it up yet.

I'd love to know where you all get your news about new indie games like these because they somehow flew under my radar and they're the sort of games I'd love to know about. Same goes for Cross Code. Looks awesome, but I only heard about it via word of mouth. Actually, I didn't hear about it until the dev for Tangledeep posted pictures in their Discord chat and said nice things about it.

Is there a good single source for new indies? From the replies in this thread, I'd guess not but I figured I'd ask.

The number of quality indie game releases is just too fast for any single one group to keep track of. Like when there's a "Cool indie games coming out this month" thread here, there's always dozens of games that look great, most of which I've never heard of and will never play.
 

Mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I imagine this is why most indie direct sequels don't sell. The first game sells on a combination of quality & uniqueness but without that uniqueness, the sequel doesn't sell even if it's of higher quality. Like with me, I thought Guacamelee 1 was a pretty good game but I didn't love it. 6 years later, there are so many indie metroidvanias out there that "Guacamelee but somewhat better" isn't enough of a selling point to convince me to play the game, much less buy it, when instead I could be playing Hollow Knight or one of the many dozens of high quality games in the genre that aren't sequels to a game I've already played.
This is an interesting point. I played Guacamelee 2 but I never actually had got aroudn to playing the original one. So the whole thing was definitely a fresh experience for me.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil


If this was the actual art of the game, I would have still bought the game SO HARD
(also it is kinda scary how much korean fanart this game has ... at least korea loves it =P)
 

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
Never heard of Pit People, but I passed on Full Metal Furies because it looked boring as hell.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,176
Full Metal Furies has been a game I've kept my eyes on, but haven't pulled the trigger.

In addition to my own backlog, I have a side "local multiplayer" backlog that is extremely slow to get through. I did like Rogue Legacy a lot though, so maybe I'll pick it up at some point anyway and see how it plays as a solo experience.

The name is whatever, I'm fine with it.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
i had been hyped for Below ever since it's first E3 showing, until impressions came out and i heard how unforgiving it is

aint got time for that shit
 

snail_maze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
974
I remember a thread seemingly years ago asking this question too in regards to successful indie game sequels underperforming. May have still been on gaf. It had examples like Legend of Grimrock 2, Hotline Miami 2, Banner Saga 2. I don't think it has much to do with it being a crowded year but just more with indie studios and their audiences as a whole. It seems more like if a game goes well then that doesn't translate to fans of the studio in future
 

circuit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
212
I skipped Full Metal Furies due to assuming that its focus on co-op meant that the solo play would be lacking and I haven't seen any talk about whether that's true or not, but I've been burned on enough games that claimed they were still playable solo when it was clear they didn't really bother to balance the experience to be playable without other players around.
I played through it solo no problem and the steam reviews I remember reading were positive about solo balance. Instantly swapping your two characters makes it easier to learn how combos work (imo). Checkpoints are generous and you can still level up stuff when you die.

The puzzles and titan mythology were pretty overwhelming, but I'm looking forward to actually paying attention to them instead of using a walkthrough if I do a new game +.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
Have you HEARD the Full Metal Furies soundtrack? It's insane. And this not even on YouTube! I can't even post links here.

why is it not on youtube then? CAn't the dev/composer upload some sample tracks? That's your answer.

Some villager in the jungle of congo can come up with the safest greatest cure for cancer but if it's not marketed and pimped and broadcast to the masses, nobody will know of its existence regardless of quality.