What's wrong with Starfox 64 3D as a remake?

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Yesterday i posted a comment in the DF Shadow of the Colossus remake stating that the title of the thread is incorrect in a world where Resident Evil Remake, Ocarina of Time 3D and Starfox 64 3D exists. Now, opinions and all, i'm not going to refute anything, but one thing stroke me as odd

Dark1x said:
...but I would honestly place this remake above all of those. REmake might be its equal but the others? Not even close.

HotHamBoy said:
Come on.

Dark1x put both Ocarina 3D and SF64 3D at the same level, but HotHamBoy's reply was directed to my comment about Starfox 64 3D

Why? what's wrong with it?

I got the game at launch after a whole life of playing the original in lots of formats (N64, PC emulation, Wii VC pre"fix", Wii VC post"fix" and even after getting the game i still purchased it again on Wii U VC) and never saw anything wrong in the remake. I mean

Graphics and framerate got clearly improved (still no 60 fps, but given the fix Wii VC version recieved i was not holding my breath about this) and 3D helped. A lot.

Sountrack was reorchestated (the results were a bit weak, i'll give you that)

Controls feels better, and there's alternative control schemes

They even re-dubbed the game and added more languages (with Alfonso Solid Snake Vallés giving its voice to General Pepper here)

Ok, no online play was a downer, moreso after that E3 trailer, but i think the game made up enough for it.

So that's my reasonement, and here's my question

What's so wrong about Starfox 64 3D?

EDIT: Can a mod add a "?" at the end of the title, please?

MuchiMuchiPink · Jan 30, 2018

I don't know. Starfox 64 3D is one of the finest games the 3DS has, if you like the genre.

Zalman · Jan 30, 2018

Nothing wrong with it. It's a great remake.

boris_feinbrand · Jan 30, 2018

I think it has a lot to do with how well liked the games actually are in the first place.

Vantage · Jan 30, 2018

The only thing wrong with it is that I can't play it in HD on the Switch! I agree, it's hard to fault the 3DS remake, aside from the lack of online.

Khanimus · Jan 30, 2018

It's a great remake of a game that is more or less just "fine".

OOT 3D on the other hand is probably hindered by having to play this legendary game on a crummy low-res handheld screen.

GamerJM · Jan 30, 2018

This seems like a strange thing to make a thread about since it's replying to one specific poster deep into a specific topic.

Nothing is "wrong," with it, but from what I can gather from context, the Digital Foundry guy didn't really see it as equal to REMake/SotC because it's not really a complete revamp of the game. Just the definitive version. I'd put OoT3D and SF643D closer to something like Kirby Super Star Ultra than REMake.

MrNelson · Jan 30, 2018

I have to disagree with your statement that the controls feel better. Star Fox 64 is one of my favorite games ever, and even though I like the remake, the N64 controller is the superior control scheme. The circle pad doesn't even come close to using a regular joystick for this. Honestly, if I could play this using an actual N64 controller, it would beat out the original in my book.

Watershed · Jan 30, 2018

There's nothing wrong with it. It's a fantastic remake. Maybe you should invest less in the opinions of strangers on this forum or just ask that poster directly. The game is great. The visual and musical face lift give it new life and the new music in the end credits is worth the price on its own. An HD remaster for the Switch would be all I need from the Star Fox IP until someone figures out how to make a good new Star Fox game.

rawhide · Jan 30, 2018

They completely replaced the multiplayer mode, for one. I don't even dislike the new mode but I wish they hadn't completely ditched the old one.

IDreamOfHime · Jan 30, 2018

I loved it, perfect handheld game.

KainXVIII · Jan 30, 2018

Nothing wrong with this remake, but great? No, just good.

P-MAC · Jan 30, 2018

You probably should have just asked HotHamBoy in that thread because this is far from the general consensus! Extremely good remake

Fuchsia · Jan 30, 2018

Khanimus said:
It's a great remake of a game that is more or less just "fine".

OOT 3D on the other hand is probably hindered by having to play this legendary game on a crummy low-res handheld screen.

I think it's more than "fine" but the thing is you have to really love the type of thing Starfox 64 does in order for it to get there. The remake is great though. Solid job imo.

And I would definitely agree that the two zelda remakes, OoT and Majora's Mask, are both hindered significantly by the 3DS screen. Those two really need to be rereleased on switch just so they have their justice.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

GamerJM said:
This seems like a strange thing to make a thread about since it's replying to one specific poster deep into a specific topic.

Nothing is "wrong," with it, but from what I can gather from context, the Digital Foundry guy didn't really see it as equal to REMake/SotC because it's not really a complete revamp of the game. Just the definitive version. I'd put OoT3D and SF643D closer to something like Kirby Super Star Ultra than REMake.

I'd put Ocarina and Majora 3D close to Super Star Ultra, and note the fact that i said clearly improved when talking about graphics, there's also a reason why i used specifically a Zoness screenshot

I still remember the interminable debates about how Ocarina 3D was a port or a remake, even after launch and being proven wrong time and time again the port meme still persisted for a while.

Starfox 64 3D improved geometry, framerate and added shaders in a way it made the game beautiful, and that's talking only about graphics. To me it's by far the best 3DS remake, and on par with REmake and, yes, SotC.

Notaskwid · Jan 30, 2018

Well if you can't tell the difference between Remaka, Shadow of the Colossus for the PS4 and Star Fox 64 3d/Ocarina of time 3d, then I don't know what to tell you.

Khanimus · Jan 30, 2018

Fuchsia said:
I think it's more than "fine" but the thing is you have to really love the type of thing Starfox 64 does in order for it to get there. The remake is great though. Solid job imo.

And I would definitely agree that the two zelda remakes, OoT and Majora's Mask, are both hindered significantly by the 3DS screen. Those two really need to be rereleased on switch just so they have their justice.

A combo rerelease of the OOT and MM remakes on Switch is such an obvious move, if even to just fill a calendar either this year or next when there is no Zelda to reach for.

b00_thegh0st · Jan 30, 2018

It doesn't have the Lylat speech option, therefore making it clearly inferior to the original game.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Notaskwid said:
Star Fox 64 3d/Ocarina of time 3d

Please bear in mind that i put those 2 in different tiers

Mega Man Zero · Jan 30, 2018

I thought it was awesome. I remember there being a big stink about the multiplayer not being online, but seriously, I don't care. The multiplayer is an improvement over 64's, but I still don't want to play it. SF64 is all about the sweet on-rails shooting for me.

McNum · Jan 30, 2018

"Hey genius, I'm on your side!"

They redubbed it with a more professional and overall good sounding new dub. And while all of that is true, the classic voices were just more fun. Great is not an upgrade from good, they're independent qualifiers. The old dub was great. The new one is good. The cheesy overacting from SF64 was just part of the fun and that's missing from the remake.

Elfotografoalocado · Jan 30, 2018

I'd say Starfox and Ocarina/Majora's 3D are about the same as Shadow of the Colossus. They have mostly the same game logic and animations with modernized controls, and a layer of much improved graphics and performance on top, with brand new art. All of them also have a brand new visual feature, be it 3D or HDR.
The power gap IS larger in the case of PS4 vs PS2, and Ocarina/Starfox weren't some of the best looking games out there like SOTC is today. So I guess there's that, but the spirit of the remakes is similar, and is below the level of reinterpretation that REmake took.

EarthPainting · Jan 30, 2018

I don't think there's anything really wrong with the remake of Star Fox 64, but I do think we have an issue with how we label these new versions. Something like a Resident Evil Remake, Metroid Zero Mission, Sword of Mana , Pokémon Fire Red, etc are clearly a different beast from Star Fox 64 3D, Conker: Live & Reloaded, Majora's Mask 3D, and so on. The latter might update all the presentational aspects, smooth out controls, and maybe add some QoL tweaks, but they don't revise the game's design or flow. I think Square Enix gave us the perfect contrasting examples between the two "remake" styles: Final Fantasy IV on PSP and on DS. The PSP game would land in the camp as Star Fox 64 and Shadow of the Colossus, while the DS one would end up on the REMake side of the scale. Using the term "remake" for both seems like our terminology doesn't quite cut it.

Broken Hope · Jan 30, 2018

Because Remake and Shadow of the Collosus pretty much redo every single graphic and add completely new effects and lighting systems, they are the same game in gameplay only.

Star Fox and Ocarina are just tweaks to the old games in terms of graphics. Not complete remasters.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Broken Hope said:
Star Fox and Ocarina are just tweaks to the old games in terms of graphics.

I don't think this is true when talking about Starfox 64 3D. That's why i made this thread

Dark1x · Jan 30, 2018

There's nothing wrong with it. It's an awesome remake of a great game. I absolutely love it.

...but that doesn't mean I don't think Shadow of the Colossus is even better. Things aren't so black and white - it's possible to appreciate both even if you feel one exceeds the other. It's definitely upper tier in terms of quality, no doubt.

Deleted member 8001 · Jan 30, 2018

Nothing at all, it's fantastic. The only thing it lacks is a online mode.

Redcrayon · Jan 30, 2018

I don't think there's anything wrong with it- I adored Lylat Wars and think SF64 3D is great.

The loss of multiplayer didn't mean anything to me- the original wasn't great due to lack of options, my friends and I played it only very occasionally compared to MK and Goldeneye.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Dark1x said:
There's nothing wrong with it. It's an awesome remake of a great game. I absolutely love it.

...but that doesn't mean I don't think Shadow of the Colossus is even better. Things aren't so black and white - it's possible to appreciate both even if you feel one exceeds the other. It's definitely upper tier in terms of quality, no doubt.

In your case in particular, what irked me was the not even close part. Understable with Ocarina of Time 3D since it can be seen as a very basic remake, but not in the case of SF3D

When i saw your reply i ran to my 3DS (well, it wasn't very far, dat pkmn crystal haha) and did a quick run from Corneria to Venom just to refresh my memory. While being completely faithful to the original game it's also way ahead of the Grezzo remakes in every single way.

You know, when you have the time to get back to DF retro it would be a nice idea make a video about Starfox 64 and its remake, moreso if you're one of the lucky few with a 3DS with capture card (Now out of order, and expensive as fuck back in the day) or if you have a homebrewed N3DS with the video streaming plugin.

Luigi87 · Jan 30, 2018

SF64 3D is a great remake, except for Boss C being butchered.

FiXalaS · Jan 30, 2018

No remake ever compares to REmake.

each of those games listed when compared with the original, all can look similar still. But RE1 > REmake is at the top of the tier by a wide margin.

GeekyDad · Jan 30, 2018

What's wrong with it? Gameplay-wise, they didn't change it. Honestly, it just didn't stand the test of time all the well for me. It's fine. I enjoyed it a bit, but for the most part it felt archaic to me. Kinda boring. The final boss kinda caps off my overall feelings about the game perfectly -- meh.

I remember having a lot more fun with SFC, probably due in large part to the way it controlled, plus the strategy element was kinda cool.

Spacejaws · Jan 30, 2018

I had the same reaction when I brought it up in the thread for Remakes that potentially surpased the original.

It was immediately followed by a post detailing how 3DS was the worst version (dialogue rewrites, changed visuals) and I was a bit taken aback as I've been playing Lylat Wars 64 :) for years and I thought it was a fantastic remake.

Blackpuppy · Jan 30, 2018

Is this a technical argument or a critical argument? I feel like this thread is going back and forth between the two.

Starfox 3D is much more than taking the original graphics and upping the framerate. There are new models, new textures, new music, new voiceovers etc. I would definitely say it's akin to REmake or SOTC, however not as extreme as those two.

Now critically, does the remake make it better? That's up for debate. I personally think the differences in gameplay are too minute to be of any real consequence.

Majukun · Jan 30, 2018

it's a great remake of a great game

Deleted member 4359 · Jan 30, 2018

Great remake, sure.

On par with REmake or Shadow of the Colossus... eh.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Blackpuppy said:
Is this a technical argument or a critical argument? I feel like this thread is going back and forth between the two.

To be honest, it's both. More on the technical side, but since there's improvements on audio and gameplay i'm not about leaving non-technical details aside.

The fact that they even rewrote the original script (for better of worse) and bothered to dub the game in my opinion tells a lot about the scope of the remake.

Jonneh · Jan 30, 2018

Ocarina of Time and Star Fox 64 3D are far more loyal to their original artwork than the other two remakes. Whether they're better is a matter of preference. I think Shadow of the Colossus PS4 looks oustanding but it's also missing a certain Team ICO vibe from all the footage I've seen, I don't think it even resembles The Last Guardian. I haven't played it though so maybe that'll change during gameplay.

REmake is great because it isn't loyal. The visual, level and world design is a far cry from what the original version offered and that makes it a truly interesting remake.

elektrixx · Jan 30, 2018

My problem was that it was placed on the weaker platform, hence being a waste of a remake. It's essentially a port.

I still didn't mind it and finished it on 3DS, but it could've been on a competent platform. A real remake instead of being a waste of an idea and development time for the sake of being cheap.

wondermagenta · Jan 30, 2018

Personally? The controls and sound effects feel ever so slightly off to me in this remake, and considering how similar the two games are overall, it can't help but create this strange disconnect for me when playing. Like, it SHOULD feel identical to Star Fox 64, but tiny idiosyncrasies get in the way. The same is true for the VO: the script and cast are both carried over wholesale from the original, but the inflection of every line is different and it just feels weird? Like every time a line of dialogue is spoken, you expect it to sound one way, but it comes out completely different. I wouldn't even say any of these things could be considered straight-up bad or even inferior to the original, and they're hardly gonna matter to anyone but Star Fox 64 veterans. But personally, I can't help but be thrown off by all these tiny differences.

The graphical overhaul is OK, but I'm not crazy about it. Star Fox 64 still looks perfect and beautiful to me in its original incarnation.

I think this also just highlights how incredible OoT & MM 3D are as remakes: they literally feel completely identical to the originals, just better. It's an incredibly thin line to walk, and they pulled it off brilliantly. Really share the sentiment that these need to be ported to Switch so they can be played on a TV.

APZonerunner · Jan 30, 2018

The music is worse. That's it. Other than that it's the definitive version of the game.

Deleted member 8001 · Jan 30, 2018

Tbh I think it's odd to compare 3DS remasters to stuff like SoC being that it's 3DS level graphics on 3DS hardware. Of course it's not going to be cutting edge or anything, but for what it IS it is fantastic.

Jedeye Sniv · Jan 30, 2018

Dark1x said:
There's nothing wrong with it. It's an awesome remake of a great game. I absolutely love it.

...but that doesn't mean I don't think Shadow of the Colossus is even better. Things aren't so black and white - it's possible to appreciate both even if you feel one exceeds the other. It's definitely upper tier in terms of quality, no doubt.

Yeah but dude... you said something not entirely positive about a Nintendo product so we need a thread.

My GOAT remakes are Metroid Zero Mission, MGS Twin Snakes (is better than the original, suck it haters), and Bionic Commando Rearmed which I still love.

I would kill for a perfect 60fps antialiased to fuck remake of Starfox 1. exact same game, just slick.

Baleoce · Jan 30, 2018

Back in the day I'd play and beat Starfox 64 on a daily basis. It was so addictive. I have nothing against the 3ds version tbh. I had fun playing through it again on that. Having said that, I'd kill for a Switch version that uses zeros texture assets and 60fps

Laguna · Jan 30, 2018

They are not even remakes.

GongagaSOLDIER · Jan 30, 2018

boris_feinbrand said:
I think it has a lot to do with how well liked the games actually are in the first place.

It's definitely this. The audience Starfox tries to target is very limited now, the remake was fine enough. Personally, Starfox isn't a franchise I've ever found groundbreaking though, so playing through it on 3DS again it did little to change that. On the other hand I feel REmake genuinely appealed to people who hadn't played the original more so than Starfox did. In the case of OoT it very much has to do with the reverance people have for the original version, some actually prefer it in certain cases.

Minky · Jan 30, 2018

It's a good remake and a great portable game, but fuck me I forgot how bad the new soundtrack was. Why did they even bother?

Griffith · Jan 30, 2018

I think the graphics are pretty great but it is one of the most nauseating games to play in 3D mode that I've ever experienced. That's the only thing I remember not appreciating about it.

Amiibola · Jan 30, 2018

Jedeye Sniv said:
Yeah but dude... you said something not entirely positive about a Nintendo product so we need a thread.

I don't like what this implies

I just don't want to derail the thread, since i was about to reply them when making the thread crossed my mind.

Not sorry for wanting to ask a question.

J.Devesh · Jan 30, 2018

I love it, honestly...

It's a quite good remake that fits perfectly on the 3DS!

What's wrong with Starfox 64 3D as a remake?

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