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.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,679
Some may argue this was years in the works, while others would say both started around the same time(the Brexit vote/US 2016 Elections), however which one will have the most immediate negative impact? And which would be the hardest to clean-up?

Both are old nations that seem hellbent on creating a modern age Cold War to see which one can one-up the other in messing with the lives of their citizens and freedoms.
 

duxstar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,227
Britain's leaders can at least say the people voted for it.

America was hacked, the party with the most votes lost, and the corruption has taken hold and hasn't been rooted out.

One seems like a bunch of people making a stupid mistake, the other is an attack by an enemy
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,099
Tough call.

I think a solid replacement president/administration for Trump would be able to undo much of the harm that Trump has caused domestically, whereas there's no reversing a completed Brexit.

But they are both two sides of the same coin.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
The US is still a world power and everything's Trump's done is ultimatly reversible with new leadership.

Brexit is already an economic hemmorage. When it fully goes through it'll be like the country's slit its own throat. And it's for the most part it and the damage it causes to the UK will be very much non-reversible.

I mean the UK is litteraly cutting dead its trade to try and beg for new trade deals from scratch with zero leverage.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't more people vote for Hilary? That seems a bit fucked if Trump won with less votes, but my understanding of the US election system is minimal.

In terms of impact though I'd say Brexit. The US can recover from a shitty president but the U.K. can't just waltz back into the EU.
 

ThreePi

Member
Dec 7, 2017
4,773
The US is still a world power and everything's Trump's done is ultimatly reversible with new leadership.

Brexit is already an economic hemmorage. When it fully goes through it'll be like the country's slit its own throat. And it's for the most part it and the damage it causes to the UK will be very much non-reversible.

I mean the UK is litteraly cutting dead its trade to try and beg for new trade deals from scratch with zero leverage.

Kind of what I think. But in theory, assuming the blue wave happens we could be at or near peak awful. With Brexit, I get the impression that things will continue to progressively get worse.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,968
Brexit is way worse *IF* it actually happens. US can get out of this in 2020, with brexit we are talking multiple generations being screwed
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
Brexit easily. What's going on in the US is bad, but's it's mostly temporary. Brexit is even worse, and it's permanent (or at least long lasting).

Brexit is way worse *IF* it actually happens. US can get out of this in 2020, with brexit we are talking multiple generations being screwed
This. They aren't even comparable on the bad-o-meter. The US issues are embarrassing but are easily rectified. Brexit is a long term devastation.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Brexit is worse. Trump is out in two and a half years most likely. Even the most central Dem in the Oval is going to swing hard against the Russian alliance.
 
OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,679
The US is still a world power and everything's Trump's done is ultimatly reversible with new leadership.

Brexit is already an economic hemmorage. When it fully goes through it'll be like the country's slit its own throat. And it's for the most part it and the damage it causes to the UK will be very much non-reversible.

I mean the UK is litteraly cutting dead its trade to try and beg for new trade deals from scratch with zero leverage.

I think the question is if that new leadership comes anytime soon. If the results of the previous election were basically orchestrated by calculated attack, and there is no counter plan to prevent it again(since the current government is dead set against making legal action), you have begun a really horrible trend of manipulation.

Britain's leaders can at least say the people voted for it.

America was hacked, the party with the most votes lost, and the corruption has taken hold and hasn't been rooted out.

One seems like a bunch of people making a stupid mistake, the other is an attack by an enemy

Unless I am mistaken, wasn't Cambridge Analytica also involved in the data breach to Russian agencies, and thus messed with the Brexit vote as well?
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Unless I am mistaken, wasn't Cambridge Analytica also involved in the data breach to Russian agencies, and thus messed with the Brexit vote as well?
Of course. Putin's main concern is the expansion of the EU, Britain is the second biggest economy in it, it's the biggest win of his career.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't more people vote for Hilary? That seems a bit fucked if Trump won with less votes, but my understanding of the US election system is minimal.

In terms of impact though I'd say Brexit. The US can recover from a shitty president but the U.K. can't just waltz back into the EU.

This is why Trump won even though he got less votes:
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,932
Looking at the big picture? I'd say the US is the worse situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US has more influence internationally. One thing the US has been very influential on worldwide is human rights. The Trump administration has pulled back a lot of the US's international funding for human rights related initiatives. I read that China and Russia have been using this opportunity to push back against human rights in the UN.

Human rights is the most important issue of the 21st century. It will affect everything from automation to how we deal with climate change. If the US keeps going down this route, it will become an outright opponent of human rights worldwide just like Russia and China. The gains in human rights of the 20th century will be wiped out, and humanity will have a very dark future. Except for the very powerful, I guess.
 

KimonoNoNo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,569
Unless I am mistaken, wasn't Cambridge Analytica also involved in the data breach to Russian agencies, and thus messed with the Brexit vote as well?
Yep Brexit was a trail run.

And Brexit is worse; In the US you've got Mueller and the entire IC trying to bring Trump and the GOP down, but over here we're going crash out of the EU with no deal and no hope when it all comes down around our ears.
 
OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,679
Looking at the big picture? I'd say the US is the worse situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US has more influence internationally. One thing the US has been very influential on worldwide is human rights. The Trump administration has pulled back a lot of the US's international funding for human rights related initiatives. I read that China and Russia have been using this opportunity to push back against human rights in the UN.

Human rights is the most important issue of the 21st century. It will affect everything from automation to how we deal with climate change. If the US keeps going down this route, it will become an outright opponent of human rights worldwide just like Russia and China. The gains in human rights of the 20th century will be wiped out, and humanity will have a very dark future. Except for the very powerful, I guess.

This is sort of how I see it too.

The UK is more internally damaging to itself as it will create a sink hole when the full damage is done, whereas the US will be akin to someone purposely setting off a volcano which will reign ashes into the sky, and have a ripple effect on surrounding innocent neighbouring countries.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
32,776
Looking at the big picture? I'd say the US is the worse situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US has more influence internationally. One thing the US has been very influential on worldwide is human rights. The Trump administration has pulled back a lot of the US's international funding for human rights related initiatives. I read that China and Russia have been using this opportunity to push back against human rights in the UN.

Human rights is the most important issue of the 21st century. It will affect everything from automation to how we deal with climate change. If the US keeps going down this route, it will become an outright opponent of human rights worldwide just like Russia and China. The gains in human rights of the 20th century will be wiped out, and humanity will have a very dark future. Except for the very powerful, I guess.
We can reverse course on that. There's no coming back from Brexit. Hell, none of the UK's political parties are against it. At least the Democrats are trying to get rid of our huge problem.
 

Deleted member 12950

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,151
Canada
The US.

The UK could be fixed by simply not Brexiting, though the government and official opposition both being for a hard Brexit makes that unlikely. UK political institutions have been damaged by American-style party leadership elections and a government engaging in a referendum it doesn't believe in but they're fixable.

The USA's political institutions are fundamentally broken - the openly partisan judiciary,no limits on political finance and spending, all the voter eligibility/registration nonsense, and the partisan drawing of electoral boundaries. There's no path to fixing all those issues.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
Brexit is a car crash. It will be quick. It will hurt and things will never be the same after it.

The American political system is a slow illness that will eventually kill the host. Even if Trump gets tossed out things wont be normal again. Things will continue to slowly decline. There will be other Trumps. GOP wont magically turn good.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
The USA's issues as you describe them I think are going to be eventually viewed as an early precursor to similar lurches rightward worldwide. I'm an American so the EU forbids me from speaking my opinion on Brexit but to me Brexit seems much more self contained with regards to its overall impact.

America's issues seem far more foreboding. The collapse of trust in public democratic institutions and outlets of personal freedom is something far, FAR more existentially terrifying than one nation's exit from the EU.
 

TwinBahamut

Member
Jun 8, 2018
1,360
Basically, it all comes down to whether a hard no deal Brexit can be avoided. If it is, and Britain either goes the Norway path or stays in the EU, then it will be somewhat worse off long term, and arguments over which has been worse will continue. If Britain goes no-deal Brexit, then it won't even be comparable. That would inflict catastrophic damage to the British economy and thoroughly destabilize the country. It will throw fuel onto the fires of Scottish independence and Irish nationalism, and likely lead to mass protests, riots, calls for referendums, or a return to the Troubles.

Trump has been bad, but so far has not threatened the continued existence of the US as a world power and unified country. A hard Brexit would.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,722
Ultimately, Brexit, for reasons already mentioned, but also because the whole game (the whole fucking game! ) of this mess was to not do it, because it's stupid. Trump is evil, and the USA showed itself to possess evil people in it willing to exploit an easily exploited system, but he didn't get elected out of sheer stupidity, nor are his actions that of an intrinsic stupidity. I mean, he is stupid as fuck, but his actions are motivated by him complete lack of any moral or ethical thoughts. Trump enjoys hurting people, like the classic psychopath he is. May, by contrast, has no idea wtf she is doing.

For reasons that nobody will ever be able to understand, Theresa May is exactly the least competent human being (supposedly, I guess) to be in the position of PM. Either that, or she's somehow on Russia's payroll too. But there is absolutely no reason at all for the Tory government to have done what they did. What they should be doing at this point, is just call the whole thing off, with the EU setting some new rules to GB's membership. Because when you have the best deal in the house and then decide to spit on everybody, you don't get to come back to the table with the deal that you had.

It really is that simple, and all the bad theatrics aside, nobody in the EU has an interest in weakening Britain or themselves, so those negotiations would be smooth sailing compared to Brexit. But as with Trump, you don't flip the table and expect the game to continue as it was.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,579
I'd say Brexit - it will be featured on numerous "top 10 historic fails" shows in the years to come. That sweet Schleicher/ von Papen plan will forever remain on the top spot of that list, tho.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,439
Britain still has a chance to fix things before they completely shit the bed. The US was screwed the day the Supreme Court justified Citizen's United. Even if we clean up the current den of serpents, the next bunch will just move right in covering their tracks better.

Also, this happened today:

 

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
A year ago I would have said Brexit easily, but now I'm not sure. Brexit is still a giant fucking shitshow that doesn't even have a cohesive opposition party (sorry LibDems are still a meme), but Trump has gotten really bad now that he's not even bothering to listen to senior republicans on trade/foreign policy. If Britain stays on a path towards a hard Brexit and Trump is neutered in 2018 and voted out in 2020 the UK will definitely be hurt more in the long run though.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
The British can actually vote the tories out if they wanted to. America won't be able to get rid of Trump because the elections will be rigged and their democracy is basically dead. You think all these Republicans would align themselves with Trump, an obvious Russian stooge, if there was any chance at all he would actually be voted out? You think all those members of the GOP are heading over to Russia for tea and biscuits? This blue wave everybody is talking about is never going to happen.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
Trump is a misstep that should be a good reminder to people to get off their asses and vote. America's soft power took a huge hit, but it's recoverable.

Brexit could have been avoided similarly, but it's impact will be far more permanent. Britain can recover from this. But it will be a long, up hill battle.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
The British can actually vote the tories out if they wanted to. America won't be able to get rid of Trump because the elections will be rigged and their democracy is basically dead. You think all these Republicans would align themselves with Trump, an obvious Russian stooge, if there was any chance at all he would actually be voted out? You think all those members of the GOP are heading over to Russia for tea and biscuits? This blue wave everybody is talking about is never going to happen.
Huh? We don't have an election in time, even if we did, Labour want Brexit too, so it wouldn't even affect it.

Even if Trump wins next time, he's out after that. He only got the spot because of his independent base would have tanked the GoP ticket of he'd have run as an independent.

None of that will happen again.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
Huh? We don't have an election in time, even if we did, Labour want Brexit too, so it wouldn't even affect it.

Even if Trump wins next time, he's out after that. He only got the spot because of his independent base would have tanked the GoP ticket of he'd have run as an independent.

None of that will happen again.
They will just elect a new version of Trump when his 8 years are over. Even if the Russians don't hack the elections, the US electorate is too stupid to be relied upon.

As far as Brexit goes, do we even know what Labour's official position is? JC seems to be going out of his way to be non-comittal. I have a feeling the poms will just have to learn this lesson the hard way. When the entire economy goes into meltdown, there will be political change and those who inherit the ashes will need a deal with the EU or risk permanent malaise.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,930
nsr.gif
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
They will just elect a new version of Trump when his 8 years are over. Even if the Russians don't hack the elections, the US electorate is too stupid to be relied upon.

As far as Brexit goes, do we even know what Labour's official position is? JC seems to be going out of his way to be non-comittal. I have a feeling the poms will just have to learn this lesson the hard way. When the entire economy goes into meltdown, there will be political change and those who inherit the ashes will need a deal with the EU or risk permanent malaise.
In reality Labour are divided on the details too, but their public stance is very similar, they just claim to be more capable of negotiating it as they're 'unified' behind JC, although that's an obscene distortion of the truth.

As for another major independent forcing a ticket, you're right, it's certainly possible, and now people know it's an effective strategy, people are more likely to try it. You're right, it's a possibility, as saddening as that is.

I also think the dems are going to fuck it up royally with a shit show of viable candidates. It's going to be a disgrace. Obama should already be there, at every DNC gig, with his arm around the heir apparent, but alas.
 

Herne

Member
Dec 10, 2017
5,319
Tough call.

I think a solid replacement president/administration for Trump would be able to undo much of the harm that Trump has caused domestically, whereas there's no reversing a completed Brexit.

But they are both two sides of the same coin.

It only takes another awful (typically) Republican president to turn the promises of the (typically) Democratic president into so much dust. The world knows now that America can't be trusted anymore to do what she says she will. For every Obama there could be a Trump.

And that's even assuming that a single good president can even undo all the damage Trump is doing, which I highly doubt.

Edit - Also, hi LewieP. Hope your mum is well, I remember how insanely popular she and her art was back at Penny Arcade years back!
 
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Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
US, the parliamentary system can be used sanely in theory.

First past the post two party garbage is unfixable imo.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,038
I think that Brexit might be worse because it's a public referendum that seems, at least from an outsider, very difficult to reverse. But, I say this as someone who doesn't fully understand the implications and execution of Brexit. Aside from the Republican Tax Bill and Trump's SCOTUS nominees (neither of whom have really been outsider nominees, more or less run of the mill GOP nominations which you could see under any GOP president... At least, with Gorsuch), most of Trump's impact has been on executive actions and executive policy decisions, which are things easily reversed with the next president.

Another concern is if Trump actively succeeds in furthering his trade war, which typically takes years to reverse (at least, from our last experience with Smoot Hawley). The thing with executive decisions, what Trump has relied most on to pursue his agenda, is that they're quickly overturned and changed as soon as there's a new president, this is what Trump did to Obama's executive decisions, and the next president will likely do the same.

My opinion might change after January 20, 2021. Assuming Trump loses the 2020 election, which isn't even a given at this point, but assuming optimistically he does, I think I'll be most concerned for the future of American democracy from ~Nov 6 2020 (or whatever day the election is) to January 21, 2021, whenever the next president's inauguration is.

Trump attacking political opponents on Twitter, siding with literally the head of the KGB over his own Justice Department, and the dozen or so other institutions he's looking to disrupt are things that make me very concerned... But how Trump will act if he loses, in those ~2 months, has me pretty terrified.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
US, the parliamentary system can be used sanely in theory.

First past the post two party garbage is unfixable imo.
Which why both the US and the Uk need to move to the single transferable vote version of proportional representation. As it seems to have the lest amount of drawbacks.
 

The Llama

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,026
As an American, my opinion has been that if our economy stays strong, we can survive a Trump presidency, and ultimately Brexit will be worse of the two choices here. But if our economy tanks? Who knows...
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,499
UK
The US voted somebody in who could potentially tank their economy. The UK literally voted to tank their economy. Clearly the huge amounts of misinformation played a role in why both votes resulted that was, but the UK's in a worse spot. The was a time I'd laugh at the idea that the Tories were as bad as the GOP, but they're identical.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,099
It only takes another awful (typically) Republican president to turn the promises of the (typically) Democratic president into so much dust. The world knows now that America can't be trusted anymore to do what she says she will. For every Obama there could be a Trump.

And that's even assuming that a single good president can even undo all the damage Trump is doing, which I highly doubt.

Edit - Also, hi LewieP. Hope your mum is well, I remember how insanely popular she and her art was back at Penny Arcade years back!
Right. I think the lasting damage to the USA is in it's reputation overseas. Not to diminish the harm being caused at home, but that's largely (albeit not exclusively) stuff that will be fixable in the medium term. The UK is heading towards economic suicide and it's a laughing stock among it's closest allies and the wider world.

She's still been painting, although not as much over the last year or two. She's got all her work posted here.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
The damage caused by Trump will be long-lasting, but mitigated by changing the hands of power in Congress and the White House.

Brexit is permanent.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
America usually leads the world, along with the power players in multinational corp positions that take advantage of US policy. America being fucked pretty much leaves everyone else on their own
 

PJV3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,676
London
I suppose it depends how far Trump and his friends are prepared to push the system, I would say Brexit if he goes quietly.
 
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