White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

One thing I think most of us have noticed going about our lives is the prevalence of "white fragility". Even those of us on the left, or even people who would consider themselves not racist in the least fall victim to it at points.

In more than twenty years of running diversity-training and cultural-competency workshops for American companies, the academic and educator Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism. Like waves on sand, their reactions form predictable patterns: they will insist that they "were taught to treat everyone the same," that they are "color-blind," that they "don't care if you are pink, purple, or polka-dotted." They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more "salient" issue, such as class or gender. They will shout and bluster. They will cry. In 2011, DiAngelo coined the term "white fragility" to describe the disbelieving defensiveness that white people exhibit when their ideas about race and racism are challenged—and particularly when they feel implicated in white supremacy. Why, she wondered, did her feedback prompt such resistance, as if the mention of racism were more offensive than the fact or practice of it?

https://www.newyorker.com/books/pag...vents-white-americans-from-confronting-racism

White fragility can manifest in several ways, none of them good and all of them a large stumbling block to moving forward with ending or even lessening racism and the racial divide, such as how many white people have a propensity for getting defensive when white people as a group are criticized, or how many white people have the urge for diversity only when they are missing out.

It's hard to have any discussion about racial issues when one side is constantly on the defensive and are unable to see things from the perspective of another person who does not share the color of their skin.

My question to you, Era, is this: How do we combat the defensiveness? Do you share the belief it is a prevalent issue? Have you found yourself internalizing criticism against white people as a whole when it happens?

Edit: Here is a great video posted by Spinluck

And there are also 2 wonderful videos posted below by DigitalOp

DigitalOp · Nov 10, 2018

If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.

Got the timestamps to work, Guess I can start tackling Systemic Racism now >_>

oh yeah and megyn kelly is so full of shit here lol

JeTmAn · Nov 10, 2018

I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

WhoTurgled · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

This feels like satire

DigitalOp · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

Watch the videos.

gdt · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

Is there an epidemic of that going around?

Biestmann · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

While some members on here dish out a bit too easily, sometimes you just need to concede and understand that your demographic (white) has earned the reputation. It's less an insult of yourself than it is the demographic you are a part of. Not getting defensive then speaks for your sincerity.

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

Do you believe the responsibility is on the person for interpreting it as an attack, or is the responsibility on the person who is trying to have a conversation about racism, especially a person effected by it? What you mentioned is white fragility, that someone would extrapolate something that way instead of taking a moment for consideration to see the merit of the argument being presented to them.

Shy · Nov 10, 2018

The problem is, the majority of white people even refuse to acknowledge it even exists.

DigitalOp said:
If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.

idk why it starts partway through, just roll em back to 0:00

As always, Digi. You're posts quality.

Zelda · Nov 10, 2018

Biestmann said:
While some members on here dish out a bit too easily, sometimes you just need to concede and understand that your demographic (white) has earned the reputation. It's less an insult of yourself than it is the demographic you are a part of. Not getting defensive then speaks for your sincerity.

Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

Skelepuzzle · Nov 10, 2018

DigitalOp said:
If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.

idk why it starts partway through, just roll em back to 0:00

Gonna give these a watch tonight, thanks!

Kevers · Nov 10, 2018

I just got called a racist in a Facebook post because someone began to claim the reason for the forest fires in California started in 2008. I said "Of course we're blaming the black guy for what the white guy did". The local racists didn't take kindly to that one.

loneliestwizard · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

Baji Boxer · Nov 10, 2018

JeTmAn said:
I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

Can't say anyone has ever accused me of anything just because I'm white.

Deleted member 17210 · Nov 10, 2018

It's important to acknowledge one's advantages and disadvantages in life and be aware of unconscious biases and systemic issues. I think the term "white fragility" is going to piss people off just by the way it sounds, though. There must be a better term.

Khanimus · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

I cant roll my eyes hard enough...

Deleted member 1248 · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

No, that is not racism. In fact, it isn't even a derogatory remark towards any one person, so there's no reason to take offense. That's what I'm talking about, that a white individual would internalize that as an assault on themse;ves when they are in a position of privilege and have no standing to take offense or claim "racism" in that regard.

DigitalOp · Nov 10, 2018

NeoZeedeater said:
It's important to acknowledge one's advantages and disadvantages in life and be aware of unconscious biases and systemic issues. I think the term "white fragility" is going to piss people off just by the way it sounds, though. There must be a better term.

That's like......

the definition of white fragility........

A term pisses you off? Try police fucking with you for no reason.

Hypron · Nov 10, 2018

NeoZeedeater said:
It's important to acknowledge one's advantages and disadvantages in life and be aware of unconscious biases and systemic issues. I think the term "white fragility" is going to piss people off just by the way it sounds, though. There must be a better term.

The reason it is going to piss people off is white fragility lol

Zelda · Nov 10, 2018

RedMercury said:
No, that is not racism. In fact, it isn't even a derogatory remark towards any one person, so there's no reason to take offense. That's what I'm talking about, that a white individual would internalize that as an assault on themse;ves when they are in a position of privilege and have no standing to take offense or claim "racism" in that regard.

Isn't it derogatory though to basically insinuate that all white people are prone to racism?

Khanimus · Nov 10, 2018

NeoZeedeater said:
It's important to acknowledge one's advantages and disadvantages in life and be aware of unconscious biases and systemic issues. I think the term "white fragility" is going to piss people off just by the way it sounds, though. There must be a better term.

So what you're saying is that these white people are upset about a term that carries negative connotations about them, and which inherently makes them feel defensive and angry...

Interesting.

Zelda · Nov 10, 2018

Khanimus said:
So what you're saying is that these white people are upset about a term that carries negative connotations about them, and which inherently makes them feel defensive and angry...

Interesting.

So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

malyse · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

Zelda said:
Isn't it derogatory though to basically insinuate that all white people are prone to racism?

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

Isn't it amazing how much self awareness you lack?

excelsiorlef · Nov 10, 2018

malyse said:
Isn't it amazing how much self awareness you lack?

It's intentional

WhoTurgled · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

Out of curiosity, have you watched the videos in the thread?

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't it derogatory though to basically insinuate that all white people are prone to racism?

No, because it's truth, we are all prone to it because we are all born into a society that is structured that way. Our minds are poisoned by it in some form or another from the time we are kids because there is no ignoring it, it's something we all have to confront early and often in society and even within ourselves, and without recognizing that how can we move forward?

malyse · Nov 10, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
It's intentional

You mean this poster isn't literally just asking questions?

Driggonny · Nov 10, 2018

All white people are complicit in an oppressive system whether they like it or not. Getting defensive about it and making every single thread on the racism that minorities face into being about them being offended at every random comment shows an incredible lack of self-awareness. If they actually cared about the issue they wouldn't only show up to cry about themselves. Similar things happen in threads on women with men being offended at any and everything and derailing every thread to be about them.

It really should be a bannable offense and I do not believe those that argue over these comments ever had any interest in helping or listening to minorities or women in the first place.

Biestmann · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

Refering to race implies that things are biologically given. White Americans historically have had the better standing at the expense of the country's minority groups. So you are refering to this group of people that happen to be in a situation where they treat other groups unfairly. And in this case, the former group happens to consist of primarily white Americans. Acknowledging that is not racist.

Shooting a black man in his own garden because your prejudice dictates he must be up to no good simply because he is black, that is racist.

FaceHugger · Nov 10, 2018

DigitalOp said:
That's like......

the definition of white fragility........

A term pisses you off? Try police fucking with you for no reason.

If you try to engage another race using a phrase that inherently makes it sound like you're calling them weak, then don't be surprised when they respond by ignoring whatever it is you're trying to say. Especially if you double down and call them fragile a second time because they politely challenged your means of engagement.

I'm on your side, but using a term like "cultural unawareness" or something would be a better starting point. "White fragility" sounds hostile.

DigitalOp · Nov 10, 2018

WhoTurgled said:
Out of curiosity, have you watched the videos in the thread?

Who's here for a fight and who's here to take some time and understand?

FaceHugger said:
If you try to engage another race using a phrase that inherently makes it sound like you're calling them weak, then don't be surprised when they respond by ignoring whatever it is you're trying to say. Especially if you double down and call them fragile a second time because they politely challenged your means of engagement.

I'm on your side, but using a term like "cultural unawareness" or something would be a better starting point. "White fragility" sounds hostile.

Watch the videos

Mr. X · Nov 10, 2018

Kevers said:
I just got called a racist in a Facebook post because someone began to claim the reason for the forest fires in California started in 2008. I said "Of course we're blaming the black guy for what the white guy did". The local racists didn't take kindly to that one.

You're my favorite post today.

Skelepuzzle · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

I'd tell you to think before you post, but you know what you're doing.

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

Driggonny said:
All white people are complicit in an oppressive system whether they like it or not. Getting defensive about it and making every single thread on the racism that minorities face into being about them being offended at every random comment shows an incredible lack of self-awareness. If they actually cared about the issue they wouldn't only show up to cry about themselves. Similar things happen in threads on women with men being offended at any and everything and derailing every thread to be about them.

It really should be a bannable offense and I do not believe those that argue over these comments ever had any interest in helping or listening to minorities or women in the first place.

I do think this is an issue here and don't want to downplay it, but I also don't want the thread to get locked by derailing into a discussion about Era.

Driggonny · Nov 10, 2018

RedMercury said:
I do think this is an issue here and don't want to downplay it, but I also don't want the thread to get locked by derailing into a discussion about Era.

Sorry I'll be more general from now on

Astral Lovelace · Nov 10, 2018

(White guy here, full disclaimer)

I'm honestly interested in how I can bring these sorts of things up with other white guys. It's absolutely infuriating sometimes, I'm in the guard and my current unit is HEAVILY Republican. I constantly have to just listen to them bitch about their "oh woe is me" tales while simultaneously laughing at people for "it's just words how can you care?" That's not really just regarding race but pretty much applies to every situation. Worst part is I'm the only left leaning guy there, so I can't really say anything without getting grouped up on. Blech.

Kevers · Nov 10, 2018

Mr. X said:
You're my favorite post today.

I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

MilkBeard · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't it derogatory though to basically insinuate that all white people are prone to racism?

No. It comes from the position of privilege caused by a society that favors white skin. Not from the whiteness itself.

DigitalOp · Nov 10, 2018

Astral/H3X said:
(White guy here, full disclaimer)

I'm honestly interested in how I can bring these sorts of things up with other white guys. It's absolutely infuriating sometimes, I'm in the guard and my current unit is HEAVILY Republican. I constantly have to just listen to them bitch about their "oh woe is me" tales while simultaneously laughing at people for "it's just words how can you care?" That's not really just regarding race but pretty much applies to every situation. Worst part is I'm the only left leaning guy there, so I can't really say anything without getting grouped up on. Blech.

Show them the Tim Wise video I posted.

Mr. X · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
Isn't grouping an entire demographic (white) together and saying the entire demographic has earned its reputation inherently racist?

There's too many white people thinking racism doesn't exist. Only white people think that. Then when people who are racist do racism it isn't racism.

Mr. X · Nov 10, 2018

Kevers said:
I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

I enjoy a good clapback.

WhoTurgled · Nov 10, 2018

Astral/H3X said:
(White guy here, full disclaimer)

I'm honestly interested in how I can bring these sorts of things up with other white guys. It's absolutely infuriating sometimes, I'm in the guard and my current unit is HEAVILY Republican. I constantly have to just listen to them bitch about their "oh woe is me" tales while simultaneously laughing at people for "it's just words how can you care?" That's not really just regarding race but pretty much applies to every situation. Worst part is I'm the only left leaning guy there, so I can't really say anything without getting grouped up on. Blech.

You will never be able to convice them as a group, groups of people can justufy anything. Frank one on one discussions might make some progress but the best tactic I've found is to make it obvious that you are cringing at them when they say some stupid shit, shame is the best motivator imo.

Advance.Wars.Sgt. · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

Calling out institutional racism isn't equivalent to racism, but continue obfuscating the point for "reasons" lol

Veggen · Nov 10, 2018

Astral/H3X said:
(White guy here, full disclaimer)

I'm honestly interested in how I can bring these sorts of things up with other white guys. It's absolutely infuriating sometimes, I'm in the guard and my current unit is HEAVILY Republican. I constantly have to just listen to them bitch about their "oh woe is me" tales while simultaneously laughing at people for "it's just words how can you care?" That's not really just regarding race but pretty much applies to every situation. Worst part is I'm the only left leaning guy there, so I can't really say anything without getting grouped up on. Blech.

People saying "it's just words" and "how dare you use the word racist" form a single circle in a Venn diagram.

DukeBlue · Nov 10, 2018

Khanimus said:
So what you're saying is that these white people are upset about a term that carries negative connotations about them, and which inherently makes them feel defensive and angry...

Interesting.

I dont get posts like these. Like I know what you mean but I'm sure the poster agrees with you that racial slurs are bad and damaging.

I'm sure there are people out there that get mad at the term white fragility and see no problem with the n word, but not the poster you are arguing with.

Palette Swap · Nov 10, 2018

People should really read White Like Me.

(Props for posting Tim Wise videos upthread)

Khanimus · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

Do go on. I'd love to hear about the systemic oppression of white people.

RedMercury · Nov 10, 2018

DukeBlue said:
I dont get posts like these. Like I know what you mean but I'm sure the poster agrees with you that racial slurs are bad and damaging.

Racial slurs are not the only form of racism.

Spinluck · Nov 10, 2018

Zelda said:
So basically fighting racism with racism. You think that will work?

One week huh?

Wonder if that will change his views or not, probably not.

Roland Martin is awesome, speaking on the black standards of beauty vs the white standards of beauty(the status quo) cannot be done enough.

White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism

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