White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism

[TerminusFox]

And here's to the white liberals here: just because you understand the concept of white fragility becUse of this thread doesn't mean you're not going to slip from time to time. You always have to be vigilant and you're not gonna get a pass. You'll get called out too.

Don't take it personally, and just grow.

 

[Burrman]

Well, I didn't think to specify but we're just talking about Western-centric racism here, though other places have similar problems that likely manifest in similar ways. The driving force of racism is perpetuated by white people both currently and historically in our corner of the world and beyond us of course but for the purposes of this discussion and this specific phenomenon the scope is here in America.

Also, like Digi said, check out the videos

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Ya was gonna watch it,but seen how long it was. Will watch tomorrow tho.
I think another problem though is that people seem to talk on this forum as if everyone is American. Which becomes a problem with a lot o discussions

 

[Royalan]

Ya was gonna watch it,but seen how long it was. Will watch tomorrow tho.
I think another problem though is that people seem to talk on this forum as if everyone is American. Which becomes a problem with a lot o discussions

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...not really tho?

I mean, I'm willing to concede specific differences. Even though it's just a single country, the US is so big and so diverse that even here we have to discuss the different ways racism manifests itself by region (the number of times I've had to school my East Coast friends on, "yeah, blatant racism isn't just a Southern thing!"...chile, too many times…")

But racism and colorism is pretty global, thanks in large part to a western/anglo influence that took hold thousands of years ago. So even though there are minute differences, the general stories are very similar.

I don't think this was your intent, but there is this prevalent "modern racism is an American thing," that I find quite curious.

 

[PaJeppy]

Informative for sure. The whole "white fragility" thing I never understood. Bit clearer now.

 

[Biggersmaller]

I often roll my eyes at sincere "white people so __________" posts.

Is this white fragility?

 

[Royalan]

I often roll my eyes at sincere "white people so __________" posts.

Is this white fragility?

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Yes.

 

[Skelepuzzle]

DigitalOp Those were great watches, thank you for the recommendation.

 

[Burrman]

...not really tho?

I mean, I'm willing to concede specific differences. Even though it's just a single country, the US is so big and so diverse that even here we have to discuss the different ways racism manifests itself by region (the number of times I've had to school my East Coast friends on, "yeah, blatant racism isn't just a Southern thing!"...chile, too many times…")

But racism and colorism is pretty global, thanks in large part to a western/anglo influence that took hold thousands of years ago. So even though there are minute differences, the general stories are very similar.

I don't think this was your intent, but there is this prevalent "modern racism is an American thing," that I find quite curious.

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I'm not saying it's racism is only an American thing. I mean when it comes to systematic racism that everyone talks about. Because this same racism exists in other non white countries but all racism topics seem to only involve America on this forum as the OP mentioned he was referring to the west.

 

[NoName999]

To those who say the phrase "white fragility" should be changed to not offend white people:

HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE IRONY?

 

[Like the hat?]

I'm currently reading the book in the op and it's really made my eyes open

 

[D i Z]

I'm not saying it's racism is only an American thing. I mean when it comes to systematic racism that everyone talks about. Because this same racism exists in other non white countries but all racism topics seem to only involve America on this forum as the OP mentioned he was referring to the west.

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We could just make more topics to include all of this. But people are more apt to deny the existence of it anywhere outside of the US.

 

[Deleted member 1248]

To those who say the phrase "white fragility" should be changed to not offend white people:

HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE IRONY?

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It's truly the cleverest form of white oppression.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.




Got the timestamps to work, Guess I can start tackling Systemic Racism now >_>

oh yeah and megyn kelly is so full of shit here lol

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CRIMINALLY UNDER VIEWED

 

[Royalan]

I'm not saying it's racism is only an American thing. I mean when it comes to systematic racism that everyone talks about. Because this same racism exists in other non white countries but all racism topics seem to only involve America on this forum as the OP mentioned he was referring to the west.

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Well, here's the thing that I notice.

A lot of the threads on race on this forum are by posters who are not taking a myopic view on racism as being only an American thing or speaking about it exclusively within that frame, but are instead posters exercising their right on this forum to create threads on topics that interest them (within the bounds of the TOS, of course). A lot of posters on this board are American, for better or worse.

I say that to say this: be the agent of the change you want to see. Instead of lamenting about "this forum" only posting topics about American racism, be the member of this forum who posts threads about racism as it pertains to other regions of the globe.

EDIT: This post is expousing a view very similar to "GAWD, why don't black people fight for more representation for Asian/Hispanic/etc. in film!?" We can't do your work for you, bruh.

 

[DigitalOp]

DigitalOp Those were great watches, thank you for the recommendation.

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CRIMINALLY UNDER VIEWED

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Thanks for watching!

Remember, if you have people who question all of this or you want to have discussion, watch these videos with them! Send the links!

 

[GLHFGodbless]

If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.




Got the timestamps to work, Guess I can start tackling Systemic Racism now >_>

oh yeah and megyn kelly is so full of shit here lol

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Man I love Time Wise.

 

[sooperkool]

How the fuck can anyone claim to be a fan of Ice Cube and think he would be a supporter of Trump... some people are just so fucking stupid.

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Younger people do not understand that true rap artists aren't just playing a role.

 

[Consensual]

I love how the mere mention of white fragility brings out exactly what you'd expect. People complaining that "white fragility" is too mean, and could we please treat them with the kid gloves that people of colour have never had the luxury of being treated with.


If the term "white fragility" puts you off discussing race and racism, then you're probably a fragile and racist white person.

 

[TerminusFox]

Man I love Time Wise.

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Check out his Patreon.

Dude has literally hours upon HOURS of speaking straight truth.

He also has a podcast called "Speakout With Tim Wise."

 

[subpar spatula]

I don't know, but maybe it's with age or whatever, but whenever I saw someone speak about how white people are offended, I'd kind of get offended myself and probably post about (on the last website), but ionno, I agree with the criticism now.

 

[Zoc]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

 

[sooperkool]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

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for their sake those people ought to get over it. Black people, Asian people, Native American and Latinx people in this country have shown in the past that if you continue to ignore and downplay or deflect from the issues we speak up about that we WILL start reacting violently.

 

[808s & Villainy]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

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You act like people aren't aware of all that. If they think their exceptions any attempt at explaining they aren't offends them. It's not the term, it's that they hear it and assume you're lumping them in with people they believe they're not like

 

[Bakercat]

To those who say the phrase "white fragility" should be changed to not offend white people:

HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THE IRONY?

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Lol truest post here.

 

[Squarehard]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

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The term itself is based on facts though, and trying to sugar coat things is sort of the reason why the topic is, and has been so difficult to approach when speaking to people.

Just because you get people to hear you, doesn't necessarily mean they're listening to you.

I think that's an important distinction to remember.

 

[DigitalOp]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people.

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Im curious since this is the reigning sentiment happening the thread.

You say its a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, therefore it needs a term to describe it. What should that term be then?

 

[PaperSparrow]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

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The thing is, no matter how you put it, when you teach white people about systemic racism, there will always be pushback and dismissal, because otherwise they have to accept that they themselves have a part in it. Truly open-minded people don't look for an out in a discussion, only people that wish to remain ignorant and "win" an argument do that.

 

[FF Seraphim]

If people actually..... honestly..... care, they would watch these 2 videos.




Got the timestamps to work, Guess I can start tackling Systemic Racism now >_>

oh yeah and megyn kelly is so full of shit here lol

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This is great. Sharing now. Thanks for posting it.

 

[DigitalOp]

This is great. Sharing now. Thanks for posting it.

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Thanks for watching and sharing!

 

[FF Seraphim]

Thanks for watching and sharing!

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Its a god damn shame this video has less then 3000 views. Of course that just helps prove the man right. No one wants to talk about it or listen to it.

 

[Spinluck]

Lol! What the hell is this from it looks hilarious

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LMAO where is this gif from?

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[DigitalOp]

Its a god damn shame this video has less then 3000 views. Of course that just helps prove the man right. No one wants to talk about it or listen to it.

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I don't think a lot of people even know about Tim Wise.

I think of him as the great filter. If someone can listen to Tim and not even find an ounce of understanding, it was never meant to be anyway.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I don't think a lot of people even know about Tim Wise.

I think of him as the great filter. If someone can listen to Tim and not even find an ounce of understanding, it was never meant to be anyway.

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I never heard of him until you posted the video but now will watch his other stuff.

 

[Kernel]

There's too many white people thinking racism doesn't exist. Only white people think that. Then when people who are racist do racism it isn't racism.

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My impression is that they see white privilege as normal, "that's just the way it is".

 

[D i Z]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is better.

I mean, it's a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, but it antagonizes people. That gives them an "out" from the conversation: "this guy is just out to get me... I won't believe anything he says."

If you give people some facts about the blood-soaked history of European colonialism, the history of white supremacy, and statistics on race and life prospects, and then combine that with some examples of how unconscious bias can seep into the thinking of even the kindest, most open-minded individuals, you're more likely to chip away at their stubborn insistence that they are somehow an exception to every rule, untainted by history or upbringing.

Click to shrink...

Anyone ready to remove themselves from the discussion and not waste my time is welcome to feel all of the antagonism that they can conjure for themselves.

 

[Zoc]

Im curious since this is the reigning sentiment happening the thread.

You say its a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, therefore it needs a term to describe it. What should that term be then?

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Does the concept of "white fragility" even need to come up in most conversations about race?

Nobody likes to take criticism, and it's uncomfortable to realize that you've been part of the problem when you thought you were one of the "good guys". It's understandable most people would react with distress, right? What's the benefit in pointing at that distress and naming it?

I mean, the goal here is to increase people's self-awareness about their unconscious bias, right, not to find new ways of accurately describing their psychology.

 

[Dream Machine]

Im curious since this is the reigning sentiment happening the thread.

You say its a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon, therefore it needs a term to describe it. What should that term be then?

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I would probably discuss it with nuance and fully explain myself rather than focusing on whether or not I can use buzzwords as shorthand. There's a reason why the videos you posted at the beginning of the thread are effective and informative. It's because they clearly break things down, and don't use lingo that's up for interpretation.

But that's only if you actually want to change someone's perception and reach them. Sometimes you just want to post "lol white fragility" as a response to a news story or situation because it's cathartic and it will make people who already agree with you laugh.

 

[DigitalOp]

Does the concept of "white fragility" even need to come up in most conversations about race?

Nobody likes to take criticism, and it's uncomfortable to realize that you've been part of the problem when you thought you were one of the "good guys". It's understandable most people would react with distress, right? What's the benefit in pointing at that distress and naming it?

I mean, the goal here is to increase people's self-awareness about their unconscious bias, right, not to find new ways of accurately describing their psychology.

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You literally just said

"Its a perfectly accurate description of a very real phenomenon"

And that phenomenon's definition is:

An aversion or defensive attitude to having a needed discussion under the flawed pretense of taking it personal.



We literally can't have a discussion on Racism due to this phenomenon. "White Fragility" has been expressed to us as antagonistic and not the proper name. We're listening. So what should we call it?

Were you able to watch the videos on Page 1 btw?

I would probably discuss it with nuance and fully explain myself rather than focusing on whether or not I can use buzzwords as shorthand. There's a reason why the videos you posted at the beginning of the thread are effective and informative. It's because they clearly break things down, and don't use lingo that's up for interpretation.

But that's only if you actually want to change someone's perception and reach them. Sometimes you just want to post "lol white fragility" as a response to a news story or situation because it's cathartic and it will make people who already agree with you laugh.

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Yes, this is exactly why I posted the videos!

What should I say to someone who does not watch them but specifically wants to discuss the terminology solely? Am I to actually expect they are in good faith and care about the issue at hand? Institutionalized Racism being the issue.

 

[Royalan]

I think avoiding terms like "white fragility" is bette

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What term should be used then?

Because this "use nicer words" argument has been used since the original civil rights movement. For real.

If there were a more acceptable lexicon that would make racists more susceptible to our pleas for equality, trust me, black people would have adopted it by now.

The problem isn't the language used.

 

[SugarNoodles]

I think you should start by approaching white people in a way that doesn't make it seem like you're accusing them of racism just for being white. Usually people don't get defensive unless they feel there's something to defend against.

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I didn't even know a point could go that far above someone's head.

 

[T002 Tyrant]

I think when you accuse someone of something they don't think they are you cause that person to get their back up, and rally around more radicalised people, in turn radicalising them to the alt right.

It's the culture of looking for any kind of weakness in someone, and turning on them and basically not trying to be constructive can make the situation so much worse. Not just with white fragility, but male fragility too.

It's one of the reasons in my opinion Trump and Brexit happened.

Shouting RACIST, MISOGYNIST, DEPLORABLE etc and putting those very easy and ridged labels on folks who genuinely in their mind don't think they are those things just makes things worse.

I don't have the answer but I think those on the far left need to rethink how to reach out to fragile white folks to have a meaningful conversation. Because I think what's happening currently isn't helping the situation.

The same happens on the far right too where anyone with any left leaning ideals gets a plethora of words that doesn't describe that person.

Currently those on the extreme right and left seem to behave similarly but with opposite agendas, which doesn't set the example of having the moral high ground.

Again I don't claim to know what the solution is but I feel a rational discussion is required to find a positive and progressive way on tackling this issue.

 

[Spinluck]

Anyone ever look into Dr. Robin DiAngelo?

Would've never found out about her if not for Youtube suggesting her after a Tim Wise video, but apparently she has a book out.

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Probably gonna buy it after watching this video tbh, she doesn't get as in depth about the oppression itself like Tim Wise does. But she really breaks down the psychological aspects of it from the white perspective and I think it can really trigger some much needed introspection. Like Tim Wise she doesn't hold back. What's funny is many of the stuff she talks about can be exhibited in this very thread as far as people reacting to the phrase itself goes. Pretty good stuff.

 

[SugarNoodles]

It's one of the reasons in my opinion Trump and Brexit happened.

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[DigitalOp]

Shouting RACIST, MISOGYNIST, DEPLORABLE etc and putting those very easy and ridged labels on folks who genuinely in their mind don't think they are those things just makes things worse.
.

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If someone calls someone racist, Even if its completely out of pocket and wrong....

And a persons response is to act racist, Does that not make them racist?

 

[Quzar]

Always enjoy seeing and supporting these kinds of threads, but damn they almost immediately get hit with the exact problem they are trying to talk about. There is almost zero self awareness here.

 

[Xiaomi]

Currently those on the extreme right and left seem to behave similarly but with opposite agendas, which doesn't set the example of having the moral high ground.

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That's nonsense. The extreme right-wing is out there running shit, with all the terrible things that that entails. Extreme leftists are writing letters to Jacobin and in online journals and arguing about the definition of socialism. Unless you mean the American "extreme left" which is just social democrats who want a better welfare state and equal treatment for racial and sexual minorities.

 

[TheGhost]

If your having the discussion about white fragility with someone offline chances are you're not using it as a weapon to pick a fight or get upvotes like people do online.

My generation grew up thinking (and I'm sure large majorities still do) that racism is when you say...the N word in a deragstory manner.

We are oblivious to our unconscious bisses. If it wasn't for this forum I would have zero clue.

I had this talk with a friend, rather he had this discussion with me and he schooled me on a bunch of stuff I never thought of originally.

Apparently I was a racist with out even knowing it. Outside of the fact I don't think he practices what he preaches it was still a good learning experience and made me more conscious on a day to day manner.

 

[Royalan]

I think when you accuse someone of something they don't think they are you cause that person to get their back up, and rally around more radicalised people, in turn radicalising them to the alt right.

It's the culture of looking for any kind of weakness in someone, and turning on them and basically not trying to be constructive can make the situation so much worse. Not just with white fragility, but male fragility too.

It's one of the reasons in my opinion Trump and Brexit happened.

Shouting RACIST, MISOGYNIST, DEPLORABLE etc and putting those very easy and ridged labels on folks who genuinely in their mind don't think they are those things just makes things worse.

I don't have the answer but I think those on the far left need to rethink how to reach out to fragile white folks to have a meaningful conversation. Because I think what's happening currently isn't helping the situation.

The same happens on the far right too where anyone with any left leaning ideals gets a plethora of words that doesn't describe that person.

Currently those on the extreme right and left seem to behave similarly but with opposite agendas, which doesn't set the example of having the moral high ground.

Again I don't claim to know what the solution is but I feel a rational discussion is required to find a positive and progressive way on tackling this issue.

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Ok.

The offensive thing about this post (and posts like this), is that you're taking terms like "white fragility" that were devised as shorthand to describe observable phenomenon that happens in long-form, real world discussions and interactions and framing them as though that's all the effort black people put into the dialogue...COMPLETELY ignoring that these terms are, indeed, shorthand.

To be blunt: there are countless books, publications and lectures devoted to the very real conversations black people are forced to have on race every day. A few are posted on the first page of this very thread.

So, if you are in any way phrasing your stance in this thread as being that black people should have real conversations instead of just saying "lol white fragility! Lol!" You're not only demonstrably wrong, you're betraying your own unwillingness to take part in, or even acknowledge those conversations up until this point.

 

[nemoral]

Nobody likes to take criticism, and it's uncomfortable to realize that you've been part of the problem when you thought you were one of the "good guys". It's understandable most people would react with distress, right? What's the benefit in pointing at that distress and naming it?

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Because that distress is continually used to portray people stating simple facts as if they were attacking, and it's used to deflect conversation to white people's feelings, when the topic was black people getting shot in the streets.

 

[Kasumin]

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This is the most amazing gif of all time. Thank you for posting this. Holy shit, it's so perfect.