ohhh Im watching this now! Thanks!
Have you seen this? Its a trip, enjoy the ride.
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White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism
- Thread starter RedMercury
- Start date
ohhh Im watching this now! Thanks!
Have you seen this? Its a trip, enjoy the ride.
It's a complex issue . The idea is essentially the world should be colour blind . So that means no advantages to minorities either .
In an IDEAL world .
The initial push for civil rights was on ppl discriminating blatantly .
Now that's an easier concept to grasp and blatant . What we deal with now is
1) systemic remnants
2) lack of opportunities and bias.
These are harder to get across a very natural reaction from someone who hasn't thought it through and the long term influence is okay we're now officially not above equal in law so why are we blamed etc
For example ppl will make the argument why should I be disadvantaged by aa etc . And the truth of the matter is yes you will be but that's cause the minority's have been disadvantaged for ages and due to bias systemic aspects etc . But that point is more nuanced and harder to get across .
Just saying an argument as correct as it is normally doesn't convince people . They have to take the time to reflect upon it. And being too direct makes them defensive not reflective etc
It's a complex issue .
In an IDEAL world .
The initial push for civil rights was on ppl discriminating blatantly .
Now that's an easier concept to grasp and blatant . What we deal with now is
1) systemic remnants
2) lack of opportunities and bias.
These are harder to get across a very natural reaction from someone who hasn't thought it through and the long term influence is okay we're now officially not above equal in law so why are we blamed etc
For example ppl will make the argument why should I be disadvantaged by aa etc . And the truth of the matter is yes you will be but that's cause the minority's have been disadvantaged for ages and due to bias systemic aspects etc . But that point is more nuanced and harder to get across .
Just saying an argument as correct as it is normally doesn't convince people . They have to take the time to reflect upon it. And being too direct makes them defensive not reflective etc
It's a complex issue .
User Banned (2 weeks): Rationalizing racism, Inflammatory false equivalence, Account in junior phase
But let's get hypothetical here.
If someone (say centre in politics, so not completely right wing) is blind to their racism, say that they just can't understand why their behaviour is racist, calling them out on it won't help them in the long term. They're going to get on the defensive and likely have on social media alt rights who defend them. So there's a likelihood they start associating with alt right people more and more, because that group is willing to accept them.
Something needs to happen (I don't claim to have the answer, I think it's worth discussing) where one can reach out and convince them to act differently. I don't know if finding common ground may be starting point, but I truly believe that people who wouldn't necessarily be alt right or vote Trump now are behaving that way because they have fragility and the alt right prey on that in offering a place to belong.
Personally I would feel I wasn't racist if I criticised Israel on their stance toward palestine and someone called me anti semitic. I'd personally not turn to the alt right, but I'd side with anyone who defended me.
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Something does need to happen my friend. A Discussion.
And a great entry point is the video on Page 1 with Tim Wise.
Unfortunately Minorities in America don't really have time to deal in hypotheticals. There are White People in America who hypothetically could treat us as normal human beings with lives, emotions, children, and goals..... but they don't. Thats why there's even a need for a discussion anyway.
Please watch the videos on Page 1. Id appreciate it.
I'm sorry, if you think being told you're doing something wrong is what makes people not take corrective action , you're wrong. I hope my saying that wasn't a shock to you.
People are confronted with shocking news about their bad behavior all the time. You eat junk, you drink too much, you did the wrong thing, you are a racist.
Those are just facts.
What is going to help people solve those issues is not sugarcoating it, but offering a clear way to help themselves fix it.
People are confronted with shocking news about their bad behavior all the time. You eat junk, you drink too much, you did the wrong thing, you are a racist.
Those are just facts.
What is going to help people solve those issues is not sugarcoating it, but offering a clear way to help themselves fix it.
Exactly. The problem here isn't how white people feel about some words. It's black people getting shot and a million other things before it's white people's feelings. Yes, white people are going to give you pushback if you point out the truth that they have racist ideas. Why does giving that pushback a name matter at all, ever?
Like, I'm starting to lose track of what this thread is about. Are we talking about white fragility, or are we talking about the words "white fragililty"? I mean, it's obviously a thing. What does it matter what you call it?
The clear way I offer to begin is watching the videos. Its an excellent first step and takes a simple hour.
You can even crank the audio up, listen and play a game!
Because when discussing it, you have to call it something, and regardless of what you call it, it's going to upset people. Currently, every discussion of racism runs into it, and derails as those conversations turn into a discussion about how you should approach people so as not to make them upset -- and this happens no matter how softly you approach, no matter what language you use. And it kills the ability to discuss racism, which makes it a problem that needs to be tackled. So we have to discuss IT, before we can seriously discuss racism, and to discuss it, we have to call it something, so people did. And if you change the name to something else, they'll get upset at that phrase, because what they're really doing is trying to not have the conversation, because the conversaion inevitably makes them feel bad, no matter how you couch it or soft peddle it.
If being called racist makes one change their policy platform and vote for trump, was that person ever not going to vote for trump? For real? Like, they were with the Democrats on some or all issues then they got called racist and some switch flipped and they decided abortions are bad, black people are subhuman, Mexicans are rapists? Come on. That's not how real people work. They were gonna vote trump anyway.
When you're having a conversation with someone that inherently insists on a character judgment being placed on them people are going to get defensive either way. There's very few means of having that conversation without being somewhat confrontational.
I've literally had conversations with other white people who are perplexed about why people got mad when Papa John used the N word in a conversation when hip-hop artists use it all the time. "Why can they say it and no one else?" As if their lives are that much less because they can't run around saying the N-word. Telling them that's an extremely ignorant viewpoint that doesn't take into account the history and the inherent intent behind white people using the word just doesn't sink in because EQUALITY, and the inherent selfish nature of people who want to make the issue about themselves. "Look, I know it's wrong but if I can't use it because it's offensive then no one should!" Again, people love to play the victim and that's no more true than when talking to white people about race.
God damn at the rephrasing of "Jackie Robinson breaks Major League colour barrier" to "Jackie Robinson: the first Black man that Whites allowed to play MLB". Continuing to watch.
"But i've never experienced racism, so it cant possibly exist"
"besides...we've already had a black president"
To be fair not everyone knows or likely realizes that there's a difference between racism and systemic racism.
White folks...when you learn not to take everything so personal it becomes RIDICULOUSLY easy to become a genuine ally of PoC.
Your own ego is holding you back.
It's not hard. Like...at all. And the reason it's not hard...? Because even as allies, you'll still enjoy privilege.
Your own ego is holding you back.
It's not hard. Like...at all. And the reason it's not hard...? Because even as allies, you'll still enjoy privilege.
Am I? I see a few people complaining about it on the first page.
Anyway, the topic of the thread, as stated by the OP, is to think of ways of counteracting white fragility when confronting white people about their inherent bias. One of the first suggestions was to stop using the words "white fragility". For some reason, people are then defending that use of the term just because they feel it's accurate. It might be accurate, but you've already heard from several white poeple in this thread that they don't like it. Why not just stop using it? It just seems easier.
And I say this as a white person who can see that the people being described are white and are, in fact, being fragile as fuck.
Changing the words won't change anything. White people who are uncomfortable with the discussion will find another out to use.
Have you watched the videos on Page 1?
The video with Dr. Robin DiAngelo that Spinluck posted is excellent as well if you're interested in having the discussion.
I say this because we've been discussing terminology, rather than the issue.
User Banned (2 weeks): Inflammatory False Equivalence
Depending on the specifics, I have and will continue to be highly annoyed when I see "white people" this or that without the qualifier SOME white people or MOST white people or whatever. If you mean some white people as opposed to the racist generalization of all white people, then say that.
If you think I'm fragile for that, cool. I don't care what any racist of any color thinks.
If you think I'm fragile for that, cool. I don't care what any racist of any color thinks.
POC: Id like to talk about racism
White: Im not racist
POC: Im not talking about you
White: I have black friends...
POC: Okay, so lets talk about racism
White: Im not racist!
POC: You're not the subject of this conversation
White: is it because Im not black?
POC: this isnt about you
White: I feel uncomfortable, lets talk about something else
Most white people have entered the thread to protest umbrage to the term, would you be interested in watching the videos in this thread?
Yep I'll watch it in an hour or so.
It's definitely a huge issue and something that I have no clue in how it can be solved without getting people on the defensive. I used to just tell people that they were part of the problem and troed explaining, but I made things worse so I want to be able to find a solution tgat isn't what is now normal amongst people online. Plus I suffer from panic attacks and anxiety so it's very hard for me to even say anything confrontational.
I find Daryl Davis and his methods of combating the KKK interesting. There's something to be said by a direct personal approach that he makes.
Where online ore en masse which seems to be less effective. I think white people including me could do to help, but I think there needs to be more strategy and discussion on a playbook.
But I refuse to be aggressive or confrontational any more. Call it being a snowflake or even say i'm part of the problem. But I just can't work on a strategy that I personally feel makes the situation worse.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
RedMercury when you can, def add the video posted by Spinluck. Its so good.
Have you watched the videos on page 1? In the first one, Tim Wise discusses what white people can do to help and it is not an aggressive approach.
There is already another term: White Ignorance.
Charles Mills wrote a paper on it that has a great lead in.
The crowd went up for that one.
I fear the word White is causing the shutdown. Head in the Sand is much much nicer to make one feel comfortable.
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I really feel like it's not that hard. Most of the time, when people casually drop racist or homophobic comments and I point it out to them, they either don't care or seem surprised that not everyone has the same opinions. I'm sure very few of these people, if any, have actually changed their minds afterwards, but they have all stopped making those comments to me, at least. These are white-on-white interactions, though.
YOOOOO
That whole thing when she tricked her friend over text messages into talking about race has me shook!
That whole thing when she tricked her friend over text messages into talking about race has me shook!
I do this to my brothers and friends all the time IRL and on texts.
It's clearly implied that we're referring to SOME white people. Why isn't when talking about these things people take it personally? Like when talking about "white privilege" it's always "Well I had so and so hardship!"
To the best of my knowledge, DiAngelo originated the term. I haven't watched the video yet, but I posted this article she wrote earlier in the thread (that I think is a good overview of the topic).
Robin DiAngelo said:
Anyways, I am certainly vulnerable to white fragility. I'm used to discussing similar topics in the context of critical theory, where I think I handle myself well enough, but sometimes find myself becoming defensive about things like demographic generalizations (e.g., in response to discussions about the role whiteness plays in voting patterns). It's certainly a useful concept - and has the interesting property that people who are defensive about its legitimacy or use demonstrate both!
Spinluck Dr. Robin DiAngelo is the truth.
I personally vote to change the term "White Fragility" to "Head in Sand Syndrome"
Would this suffice? Does this make the discussion easier to start?
Nice! Glad you watched it.
Lol that gif.
That video was something, so many real bits in there that I had pause, go back, and do a double take.
Her ability to straight up breakdown the maladaptive behaviors and thoughts that stunt any progress in the discussion or growth is amazing.
EDIT: Jane Elliot's vids are pretty good. One of the earlier vids that touched on it before this issue got a name lol.
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If you knowingly vote for a racist because you were called racist (BUT TOTALLY NEVER WERE RACIST, EVER!!!!!), then chances are that you were racist all along, actively so, that the reason you were called earlier racist is because you were racist, and that you would have voted trump anyway.
Trumpers don't vote trump because they got called racist, it's because non-white people have rights.
To be honest, I view it as rather telling that we have to change words to appease white people before changing actual action that gets actual non-white people killed. The discussion is here is literally about protecting white fragility over non-white lives. White people's ego, the wish to feel that one is an awesome person, apparently matters more than lives, even when we objectively know that there is a problem and that it kills non-white people.
I mean, we've got white people here that are super annoyed at such discussion that doesn't specifically reassure them it totally doesn't mean them, and think that everyone else is racist towards them if the wording isn't super specific about only meaning ~some white people~. And yet the same posters were often seen saying blatantly racist stuff. It's completely bonkers. No other group is that fragile, none.
Yeah it was really good, Thanks. I had no idea about her. What got me was when she talked about how she herself fucked up about making the comment about the Black Woman's hair and what she did to repair that. That was remarkable the way she was able to tell that story and portray herself as vulnerable and still capable of error. The Black Woman saying that her comments were normal but her genuine attempt for apology and repair wasn't stood out for me since it was so true.
One of the biggest take aways was her exclaiming that if you think you are a full ally and that you understand then you are actually causing more harm because the learning never stops. Even the greatest champions are still capable of flaw, and thats okay... because its all about how you respond and wether you're willing to listen and become better. Being able to expose herself like that shows me that she cares.
Were you able to watch that Jane Elliot video I posted? So she does a social experiment to simulate Racism, lol. Virtually impossible so she bases it on eye color and she starts laying into people on that one detail.
Its fucking incredible how people completely cracked over a literal needle prick worth of simulated Racism. Its shows just how insulated white people are from discrimination and prejudice.
Well, it depends what the goal is to be honest. In the OP I see that it states that white fragility is an issue, but is the goal to eliminate white fragility? Or to find out how to work around it? Or to merely get people to acknowledge that it exists?
The funny thing about getting offended at the term "white fragility" is that it's literally the most blatant example of white fragility.
This is actually a great question.
I think the goal is recognize the existence of White Fragility. Its developing the awareness that systems have been put in place to protect White People from realizing that society has been constructed to protect them from acknowledging racial inequality and systemic racism.
A discussion literally can't begin until white people realize that there is an issue and that it is so deeply rooted within society and even their unconscious behavior. No white person is exempt from this. They all benefit from this, and it was done by design.
Its literally the first step to solving Racism, but its been 400+ years and we're still on Step 1 because of how powerful it all is.
Daryl Davis is a man who defends and testifies on behalf of white Supremacists arrested for white supremacist violence years after he supposedly changed them because their his friends, and then turns around and yells at BLM activists for no reason.
I've always enjoyed watching her work and I have to say as a white man it has without question had an impact on how I see racism, even though I've never been a part of her exercise myself, the original one she did with the kids gets me completely choked up because it helped to bridge the divide between sympathy and empathy for me. Some people are just too entrenched and too defensive that they cannot see and relate to how minorities experience discrimination on some level on a daily basis, but then there are others who do gain something valuable. People complain that it might be bullying, big deal, it's 2 hours or so of inconvenience that I assume these people volunteered to be there.
Negative peace over true justice in a nutshell right here.
Or: Calling these people what they are gives them the excuse to further move the definitions of the words to the extreme and people who defend them give them the ammunition to normalise hate.
Look at the recent US midterms. Absolutely abhorrent, racist ads ran and endorsed by the POTUS himself. Call it racist though and you'll get a shower of denial and deflection on the right.
No, people need to stand firm and remind people that racism is endemic and by accepting the right normalisation of racism, misogyny and bigotry, you're part of the problems.
If being pointed out to this fact is too much to bear, then white fragility is not only correct, but it's barely enough to cover it.
Horseshoe theory is completely bunk, btw and is a tactic of the far right.
As stated, people can't downplay racism by saying it's just words while crying about this term.