White people, we need to talk about white supremacy and our role in it

[PaperSparrow]

This is a long time coming, too long honestly. Marginalized communities of Era have shouldered the burden of this discussion, with only a handful of white people to voice support only to have discussions leave the front page. I want white people to start taking more action on this front and I'll start with this thread.

We all have the instinct to see ourselves as the good-hearted protagonist of our own story. That we can't possibly be capable of evil in any shape, but we really need to look at ourselves and realize we easily can be.

You can see us try to ignore it. Mental illness is often wrongly diagnosed and a go-to scapegoat to make us feel better. "Something must be wrong with them, they aren't like me", but you need to reconcile with the fact that racism is not a "bug" in our white-dominated society, it is the only conclusion to it. It is human and we can't keep pretending we are that removed from it ourselves.

"So," you say, "what am I supposed to do? I'm not racist, I think what is happening is awful. I don't contribute to white supremacy."

1. If you are white, you contribute and benefit from white supremacy every day. Period. It's a fact you need to internalize and learn from. Personally, I have benefited by things as simple as not being afraid of police when pulled over. I have contributed by saying stupid shit on behalf of others I have no business saying. Does that make me a bad person? You know what, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I recognize it and try to always do better, not to feel good about myself, but to help make the world better for others. If I say something that hurts someone, they are not obligated to forgive me, no matter how sorry I actually am.

2. You need to confront family and friends. We've seen the threads on this. Depending on how bad your family is, it's not the easiest subject to breach and can end in cutting ties completely. The thing is, we are in a position of privilege that allows us to have this conversation at all. There are activists who would love to have that amount of respect from their opposition even if, in the end, it doesn't change their mind.

3. When marginalized communities speak up, shut up and listen. I can't understand why this is still a problem when it's the easiest thing in the world to understand. The amount of defensiveness I've seen when someone calls out "big company/person x" for "x-ism/phobia" is ridiculous. No, the person criticizing doesn't have to be right, but they sure as fuck know better than I do and I can respect their perspective enough to not shout it down. Be aware that just because the majority agrees with you doesn't make you right. This board is primarily white, American, cis, heterosexual, men. It is very easy for that group to drown others out by sheer number.

4. Racism does not have to be conscious. More often than not, it's not. It is not an unknowable evil. This is important to get through your head: YOU CAN BE UNINTENTIONALLY RACIST AND THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE YOU ARE.

I don't want marginalized communities to be the ones to have to support this discussion, but you are obviously welcome to participate and call out behavior. The Asian-era community in particular has been ignored a lot recently regarding the rising anti-Asian sentiment and as a heavy lurker I can't say I wasn't partially responsible.

I hope white people reflect on what I'm saying and have an open mind. If your first thought is to be defensive, I implore you step back, think about why, and please watch the below videos, which have been linked here before first. This isn't about being right it's about being better and it can be an uncomfortable feeling.

Edit: After some feedback, I do want to make it clear that just acknowledging you benefit from white privilege is not the end game. It is the first step to being anti-racist. Saying you are privileged without acting on it means nothing to those dealing with racism as is in itself a privileged position to take. Advocacy, protests, donations, volunteering, and again speaking to those around you are good ways to start following up on this.

WHAT CAN I DO ON ERA:

To give posters something immediate to work towards and something visible to the marginalized communities, I think it would be good to expand upon point 3 above and talk about they way we approach critical threads on racism, whether that be real world or a piece of entertainment. The following points may not be something you yourself do, but it is behavior you can call out and discourage. Some of this may come across condescending, but it's real stuff I've observed, so take that as you will:

1. Treat the topic as genuine. When a thread topic goes against the grain of popular consensus, there is a tendency for drive-by "are you serious?" posts. Just because you don't see the racism, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.You can at least treat the OP with the respect that they are serious about the topic.

2. Do not talk over those affected. This can trip up well-intentioned people, but you need to remember to support those bringing up the conversation, not speak for them.

3. Avoid generalizations when discussing race. This has been an especially big issue regarding Asia-related topics, whether it is lumping all of Asia together, viewing Japanese people as a monolithic culture, or calling out Chinese people for something their government did. These are human beings you are talking about, not robots, you can stand to be more specific. This extends to not holding up one person who agrees with you and acting like they speak for everyone in their community.

4. Your fellow poster is more important than a company. It's what it says on the tin. Your favorite company will survive criticism on the internet, trust me. It might even help improve their products.

5. You don't always have to give your two cents. Some of my best learning experiences involved being quiet and listening to others. Obviously, if you want to voice your support, you can, just keep in mind your opinion isn't always that important.

6. Don't dog pile a marginalized member. As said above, it is very easy to outnumber posters as white people and it can exhausting (speaking as a woman) to be one of the few defending your position. Like 1 says, treat the poster with the understanding they are serious and don't attempt to drown them out because they made you uncomfortable.

7. Avoid attacking the tone of a post and focus on what's being said. When you are the one feeling the effects of something, it is easy to get emotional, especially angry. There is a tendency for white people to get hung up on how something is said and demand it be said "nicer". No, that is not a burden you should place on the affected party. You can put your wounded ego aside long enough to acknowledge what's being said.

Let me know if I should add any more points.

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Another good book that discuss red lining, segregation and the oppressive practices against home ownership: https://bookshop.org/books/the-colo...1631494536?aid=1473&listref=dear-white-people

This system runs deep and long, the very same laws and practices are still in place today

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Here are some recommended counterpoints and additions to "White Fragility":

A better book option: https://www.sealpress.com/titles/ijeoma-oluo/so-you-want-to-talk-about-race/9781580056779/

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I don't necessarily agree, which is why I said it's only a small piece of the puzzle and where I think some of the criticism of White Fragility is coming from. The point being self-reflection without action is meaningless. I think we generally agree from your OP, I just wanted to point out people have criticized White Fragility for this very thing.

Here's some other alternatives I have seen:

• White Tear/Brown Scars - https://books.catapult.co/products/...feminism-betrays-women-of-color-by-ruby-hamad
• Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People about Race - https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/wh...-people-about-race-reni-eddo-lodge/1125377174
• How to be an Anti-Racist - https://www.ibramxkendi.com/how-to-be-an-antiracist

I see So you want to talk about race was also suggested above, which is also a good pick

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Thanks to DigitalOp and Spinluck for being the ones to first share these videos and images.

 

[Temascos]

Thank you for posting this thread, it's well thought out and a useful read for me.

As a cis white male I want to do better, but I bottle up when it comes to calling out my family. I have a lot of conflict anxiety which means I let them win the arguments in order to avoid confrontation. But non-whites don't have that luxury.

Nobody deserves to be oppressed, not due to their gender, religion, or ethnicity. We need to stand up for people less fortunate than us and I hope to learn how to best help and make a difference.

 

[Scottt]

All the points in that last image are very worthwhile to keep in mind. It's important to meditate on each of them and to consider how they answer the impulses/actions/thoughts that can be driven by whiteness. Connected to them is that "checking privilege" is not an attack or a guilt trip--it's a good and healthy practice that strengthens community.

 

[HomokHarcos]

I think the biggest difficulty is getting people to understand systemic racism. My stepdad is one of those people who uses the argument "the law says we're equal".

 

[HomokHarcos]

I listened to a podcast and there was a good example of white privilege that I wasn't aware of, and I'll give a personal example. I'm a white person in a predominately white neighborhood, and I've been pulled over by the police 3 times just walking. But since I'm white, I have the advantage of knowing it wasn't because of racial profiling, so it's quite easy for me to just move on. A POC in the same situation would not have the same the benefit of just assuming it's a nosy cop, and would have to ask themselves if they were being racially profiled, ESPECIALLY if they're in a majority white neighborhood.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Thank you for posting this thread, it's well thought out and a useful read for me.

As a cis white male I want to do better, but I bottle up when it comes to calling out my family. I have a lot of conflict anxiety which means I let them win the arguments in order to avoid confrontation. But non-whites don't have that luxury.

Nobody deserves to be oppressed, not due to their gender, religion, or ethnicity. We need to stand up for people less fortunate than us and I hope to learn how to best help and make a difference.

Click to shrink...

I can sympathize with being non-confrontational. My family is a conservative bunch and outnumber me by a bit, but there was a point I couldn't stand it anymore and it actually surprised me how receptive they were when it came from me. Mind you, there's a good chunk who don't talk to me anymore and some in my immediate family still trot out excuses, but it's getting better. Obviously not every family is the same.

All the points in that last image are very worthwhile to keep in mind. It's important to meditate on each of them and to consider how they answer the impulses/actions/thoughts that can be driven by whiteness. Connected to them is that "checking privilege" is not an attack or a guilt trip--it's a good and healthy practice that strengthens community.

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Right, this isn't about moral superiority and acting better than others to make them feel bad. Like I said in the OP, I am guilty myself. The important part is recognizing that because it is the only way to better yourself and to make things better for those around us.

I think the biggest difficulty is getting people to understand systemic racism. My stepdad is one of those people who uses the argument "the law says we're equal".

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Yeah, Era at least has the benefit of a lot of posters here being equipped to understand these points. When you start talking to people who haven't been around it before, it's a slow process for sure.

 

[Late Flag]

I listened to a podcast and there was a good example of white privilege that I wasn't aware of, and I'll give a personal example. I'm a white person in a predominately white neighborhood, and I've been pulled over by the police 3 times just walking. But since I'm white, I have the advantage of knowing it wasn't because of racial profiling, so it's quite easy for me to just move on. A POC in the same situation would not have the same the benefit of just assuming it's a nosy cop, and would have to ask themselves if they were being racially profiled, ESPECIALLY if they're in a majority white neighborhood.

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I think about this dynamic a lot, and it goes way beyond encounters with LEOs. For example, I go to the store and say hi to a stranger who happens to be in the same part of the aisle as me, and they ignore me or give me a dirty look or something. No big deal -- maybe they're having a bad day, maybe they're just a jerk, or maybe they just don't appreciate superficial attempts at friendliness. It doesn't really matter. Within minutes I will have moved on and completely forgotten about this interaction. But that's easy for me to do because I'm a white guy and I know with 100% certainty that the white guy who gave me the silent treatment wasn't giving me a hard time because of my identity. If I were black, I would probably wonder if it was racial somehow. I never have to expend mental energy worrying about that sort of thing, ever.

A hypothetical like this obviously describes a fairly trivial social encounter, but this kind of thing has the opportunity to happen multiple times per day. It's like a microaggression that way.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

I think the biggest difficulty is getting people to understand systemic racism. My stepdad is one of those people who uses the argument "the law says we're equal".

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People can be absolutely terrible at thinking about things in terms of systems and statistics. Especially when factoring in historical context and long term downstream effects of public policy.

And the problem is that real change comes at the institutional level.

 

[Summit]

White supremacy will never be meaningfully defeated as long as capitalism prevails. Wanna combat white supremacy as an individual? Be an activist; unionize your workplace; donate to and volunteer in low-income areas; educate your family, friends, and peers.

 

[TheMadTitan]

I think the biggest difficulty is getting people to understand systemic racism. My stepdad is one of those people who uses the argument "the law says we're equal".

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Stop being concerned with equality and be concerned with equity.

Once y'all get to that distinction, difficult conversations will be less difficult.

Equality says we take three steps forward at a time. Lack of equity means that I'm already 45 steps behind.

 

[Red]

White supremacy will never be meaningfully defeated as long as capitalism prevails. Wanna combat white supremacy as an individual? Be an activist; unionize your workplace; donate to and volunteer in low-income areas; educate your family, friends, and peers.

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This post might be more useful if its tone didn’t make it seem like your suggestions are the only actions that can make a difference. As is, it robs the topic of air.

 

[Summit]

This post might be more useful if its tone didn’t make it seem like your suggestions are the only actions that can make a difference. As is, it robs the topic of air.

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Just found it odd that a post on white supremacy made no mention of the single most oppressive system in the world.

 

[BlueKaty]

I agree with everything in the OP but this I don't understand

If you are white, you contribute and benefit from white supremacy every day.

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How am I contributing to white supremacy just because I'm white? I do not understand this. What am I doing? I actually feel insulted by blunt statements like this because I'm on your side. I've seen this argument multiple times and the only thing it has ever done was antagonizing people who aren't the problem. Perhaps calling people racist dickheads isn't a good idea if you want to try to teach them something.

 

[Fatoy]

I think the biggest realisation for me in this area has been that I'm allowed to make mistakes and rebound from them because there's a floor that, as a straight, white man, I can't ever fall below. That same floor doesn't seem to exist for people of colour in a lot of scenarios, but I didn't know that because... well, it had always been there for me. That was a sobering thing to be awakened to: the idea that my whole life I've been enabled to come back from situations that would have taken a non-white person far longer to recover from, if indeed they were allowed to recover from them at all.

I don't know how helpful that is for anyone else, but for me, as someone who really does consider themselves anti-racist, that was the most potent distillation of the idea of unconscious privilege I'd ever come across. It also opened my eyes to a lot of other areas, unrelated to race, where I'd taken similar safety nets for granted.

 

[Red]

I agree with everything in the OP but this I don't understand

How am I contributing to white supremacy just because I'm white? I do not understand this. What am I doing? I actually feel insulted by blunt statements like this because I'm on your side. I've seen this argument multiple times and the only thing it has ever done was antagonizing people who aren't the problem. Perhaps calling people racist dickheads isn't a good idea if you want to try to teach them something.

Click to shrink...

Unless you are actively working against it, not just in spirit but in practice, you are condoning it. If you ever let a racist remark fly, from a friend or from a stranger, you’ve done your part to contribute to white supremacy. It’s not enough to not be racist. You have to be anti-racist. There is a little “not all cops” flavor to this post. When you are a beneficiary of a supremacist ideology, any action you take that does not oppose that ideology is an endorsement of it.

 

[loco]

White supremacy will never be meaningfully defeated as long as capitalism prevails. Wanna combat white supremacy as an individual? Be an activist; unionize your workplace; donate to and volunteer in low-income areas; educate your family, friends, and peers.

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some of the most racist people I've encountered in my life have been in a work union and were protected by the work union for their racist actions. Unions don't defeat white supremacy.

 

[scurker]

FYI, there's been some criticisms to white fragility:

The Dehumanizing Condescension of 'White Fragility'

The popular book aims to combat racism but talks down to Black people.

www.theatlantic.com

“White Fragility” Has a Whiteness Problem

Robin DiAngelo can only take white progressives so far.

slate.com

I don't think that there are necessarily ill intentions from DiAngelo, but it has been called out as potentially harmful by suggesting that racism a problem that can just be solved by looking inward.

I think you can certainly start challenging how you've benefited from white privilege by looking inward, but that's such a small piece of the puzzle. There's so many systematic things that a broken that you can't just idly sit by and pat yourself on the back by acknowledging it and yet doing nothing.

 

[PaperSparrow]

White supremacy will never be meaningfully defeated as long as capitalism prevails. Wanna combat white supremacy as an individual? Be an activist; unionize your workplace; donate to and volunteer in low-income areas; educate your family, friends, and peers.

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You aren't wrong and it's a good thing to advocate for.

I agree with everything in the OP but this I don't understand

How am I contributing to white supremacy just because I'm white? I do not understand this. What am I doing? I actually feel insulted by blunt statements like this because I'm on your side. I've seen this argument multiple times and the only thing it has ever done was antagonizing people who aren't the problem. Perhaps calling people racist dickheads isn't a good idea if you want to try to teach them something.

Click to shrink...

I ask that you watch the videos in the OP. I've had the same reaction you have and it's very easy to get defensive. Understand that I am not trying to act morally superior, I am trying to give you the truth.

 

[PaperSparrow]

FYI, there's been some criticisms to white fragility:

The Dehumanizing Condescension of 'White Fragility'

The popular book aims to combat racism but talks down to Black people.

www.theatlantic.com

“White Fragility” Has a Whiteness Problem

Robin DiAngelo can only take white progressives so far.

slate.com

I don't think that there are necessarily ill intentions from DiAngelo, but it has been called out as potentially harmful by suggesting that racism a problem that can just be solved by looking inward.

I think you can certainly start challenging how you've benefited from white privilege by looking inward, but that's such a small piece of the puzzle. There's so many systematic things that a broken that you can't just idly sit by and pat yourself on the back by acknowledging it and yet doing nothing.

Click to shrink...

It should not be the end all be all, no, it is simply the first step. As they say, the first step is acknowledging there is a problem. We can't expect to fix the wider issue if we can't acknowledge our own complicity.

 

[Summit]

some of the most racist people I've encountered in my life have been in a work union and were protected by the work union for their racist actions. Unions don't defeat white supremacy.

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I didn't say unions in and of themselves defeat white supremacy, I'm advocating for actions that can hopefully lead to more solidarity across the board. Dismantling capitalism and defeating white supremacy are not the exactly same, but there's a ton of overlap with regard to progressive action.

 

[Ashlette]

I don't usually bring this up because it makes me look like a fool. But it shows how "lucky" I was to be born white.

A decade ago I walked into some cops who were looking for an armed suspect. My smug ass at the time wasn't aware of that and thought they were looking for kids who were skipping school. So I reached into my pocket with a dumb af smug expression on my face ready to pull out my college ID. If I wasn't white I would have been shot on the spot.

Looking back, it's one of the reasons why I find racial justice so important. I was fortunate to be spared, and I want others to be treated the same way.

 

[fanboi]

I didn't say unions in and of themselves defeat white supremacy, I'm advocating for actions that can hopefully lead to more solidarity across the board. Dismantling capitalism and defeating white supremacy are not the exactly same, but there's a ton of overlap with regard to progressive action.

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Don't think capitalism per se is racist, but the people that gain from it most usually.
Regulate it to hell and back I say.

 

[Septimus Prime]

Hi there. As a non-white person, I wanted to say thanks for this thread but also reiterate this point you made:

4. Racism does not have to be conscious. More often than not, it's not. It is not an unknowable evil. This is important to get through your head: YOU CAN BE UNINTENTIONALLY RACIST AND THERE IS A VERY GOOD CHANCE YOU ARE.

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This is probably the single biggest issue here on ERA: the thought that because you hold virtuous values in other areas, you cannot possibly also be racist.

"I'm not racist, I vote progressive/believe in equity/am a socialist/am a social activist/etc." All good things. But being good in many ways doesn't mean you can't also harbor some racist thoughts--especially unconsciously.

It's actually more frustrating to me when supposed allies are the ones who can't do any introspection than when overt racists say racist shit that I already expect from them.

 

[infinite]

It should not be the end all be all, no, it is simply the first step. As they say, the first step is acknowledging there is a problem. We can't expect to fix the wider issue if we can't acknowledge our own complicity.

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Yeah but at the end of the day what are you actually doing? I feel like we do this whole song and dance every time a tragedy happens where white supremacy is the culprit and people do shit like “I acknowledge my privilege” but never bother to question how they hoard resources and shit in their communities.

 

[Summit]

Don't think capitalism per se is racist, but the people that gain from it most usually.
Regulate it to hell and back I say.

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You don't think the system that allows a tiny minority of the population to wield an immensely oppressive force against minorities is itself racist? I guess we just need more black CEOs right?

 

[Lyude77]

I know this is a weird place to be asking this, probably, but I figure it’ll at least keep the thread on the front page, and I appreciate the message.

How do you/how should I react when a coworker who is a minority says that I’m not a good judge on how offended white people will be by bias training because I’m not like a “normal” white person? I dunno, I felt like I agree to some extent (ironically they brought up that it was because I lived in a Spanish-speaking country for a year, which is one of the points that was a reaction to criticism thing mentioned in the OP), but I felt like I was being racist just by being like “Yeah, I guess you’re right, I have had the experience of being in the minority for a while, so I guess my feedback on that isn’t very valuable”. They reassured me that I wasn’t being racist but I still felt like I should have had a better approach to the situation.

For reference (since I don’t post here much), I want to say that I realize that I am accidentally/unintentionally racist and 100% agree with the OP’s 4 points (though I think 2 is really difficult but I am trying). Like the OP had said, I’m working on being more intentionally anti-racist.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Unless you are actively working against it, not just in spirit but in practice, you are condoning it. If you ever let a racist remark fly, from a friend or from a stranger, you’ve done your part to contribute to white supremacy. It’s not enough to not be racist. You have to be anti-racist. There is a little “not all cops” flavor to this post. When you are a beneficiary of a supremacist ideology, any action you take that does not oppose that ideology is an endorsement of it.

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But is says "if you are white", not "if you are white and complacent". For sure, we benefit, but I don't think we all contribute.

 

[Sunster]

i think one of the top things all white people need to understand is what exactly racism is and the many forms it can take. racism is not just explicit actions like burning crosses on lawns and words like telling skinned brown people to go back to their country. implicit bias' that anyone born and raised in a country like this will have is racism. the difference between say a Black person having those bias' and a white person is that a Black person has no system backing their bias up and therefore no power behind them.

here's an overly dramatic but on point clip from the show, Law and Order SVU that illustrates and defines implicit bias.

 

[fanboi]

You don't think the system that allows a tiny minority of the population to wield an immensely oppressive force against minorities is itself racist? I guess we just need more black CEOs right?

Click to shrink...

No no, I do believe the system to be racist and oppressive as fuck as it is today, but I also believe due to human nature, any other method would end up in a similiar fashion, since we as humans 1) always want someone to blame for our short comings or whatnot and 2) afraid of the unknown and foreign.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

My "favorite" example of white supremacy in action is a story from about ten years ago. My buddy and I had been out drinking at a certain 3AM bar in Lakeview, Chicago, and I was so drunk that I decided to walk across the street from the bar and pee in an alley rather than waiting until I got home. I was also so drunk that I walked directly past a squad car with two officers sitting inside of it to do it. My friend followed me and started going "hey, dude, stop!" because te alley I picked was literally eight feet away from said squad car and directly within line of sight of both officers.

The cops' reaction was to mimic him - "Yeah, [name], you really shouldn't do that, buddy!" - loudly from their open squad car window until I realized what was going on and stopped myself. If I hadn't been a skinny white kid in his early 20s, I would've been tackled and arrested on the spot. They actively de-escalated the situation THEMSELVES to avoid doing anything to me. They never got out of the car, they just jokingly yelled at me until I stopped myself.

Now in an ideal world, the police SHOULD act that way - seeking non-violent solutions to problems instead of jumping to the extreme for the smallest infraction - toward everyone, but they absolutely, 100% do not when it comes to people of color.

That's white supremacy. It's absolutely everywhere. It doesn't just manifest in overt ways, it trickles all the way down to the way people treat each other on the most basic of levels.

 

[Red]

But is says "if you are white", not "if you are white and complacent". For sure, we benefit, but I don't think we all contribute.

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I’m going to refer to my other post, as it remains my response.

 

[Summit]

No no, I do believe the system to be racist and oppressive as fuck as it is today, but I also believe due to human nature, any other method would end up in a similiar fashion, since we as humans 1) always want someone to blame for our short comings or whatnot and 2) afraid of the unknown and foreign.

Click to shrink...

Are... you suggesting racism arises from our nature? Bro, stop

 

[Aaronrules380]

I've definitely had long conversations with certain family members over specific issues. Like my immediate family is generally pretty leftwing, though my Dad is very much a picture of the classic "white moderate" in many ways and I have called him out on it and discussed it with him many times (which is often super frustrating because I feel like when I bring up evidence he tends to brush it off with stuff like "well I'm not aware of that" even when I''ve brought the same things up many times before). I've definitely called him out on stuff like affirmative action and the like before. My Uncles are frankly worse in this regard (They're pro-business republicans who are very much willing to downplay other issues because it can hurt their bottom line). I've brought it up when it comes up in conversations but I honestly don't see them that often anymore since I no longer live with my parents and I haven't really had much in the way of opportunities to bring it up since really learning about their political leanings. THough I straight up apologized to my parents in advance in that if the subject comes up I'm going to chew them out on it even if it makes things uncomfortable for them. As for unintentional racism it's definitely something I try to be aware of and improve, especially if it's pointed out to me. I'd like to think I've learned a lot and improved quite a bit on a number of issues in the past few years due to taking part in discussions on places like Era

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

It should not be the end all be all, no, it is simply the first step. As they say, the first step is acknowledging there is a problem. We can't expect to fix the wider issue if we can't acknowledge our own complicity.

Click to shrink...

A better book option: https://www.sealpress.com/titles/ijeoma-oluo/so-you-want-to-talk-about-race/9781580056779/

 

[fanboi]

Are... you suggesting racism arises from our nature? Bro, stop

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Yes, on some levels. But most people, I hope at least, can push these thoughts away and actually learn from experience.

EDIT: And to pre face, I am not saying that BLACK = FOREIGN, just in general we as a species are suspecious to change and new things to some degree. Then, today, we have media and populist politicians painting a picture that PoC are bad and white are several levels above the best PoC, playing on these emotions.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Yeah but at the end of the day what are you actually doing? I feel like we do this whole song and dance every time a tragedy happens where white supremacy is the culprit and people do shit like “I acknowledge my privilege” but never bother to question how they hoard resources and shit in their communities.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the larger point is that you acknowledge and act on it. Just saying you benefit/contribute to white privilege isn't enough. I can make that more clear. The fact is a lot of people, even here, can't even get past that initial point, but I can see how it comes off performative.

 

[infinite]

Yes, on some levels. But most people, I hope at least, can push these thoughts away and actually learn from experience.

Click to shrink...

Racism has nothing to do with human nature let’s not do this in this thread at least.

 

[PaperSparrow]

A better book option: https://www.sealpress.com/titles/ijeoma-oluo/so-you-want-to-talk-about-race/9781580056779/

Click to shrink...

Thanks!

 

[Aaronrules380]

Are... you suggesting racism arises from our nature? Bro, stop

Click to shrink...

On some levels it definitely does. Tribalism is definitely hardcoded into our dna since it has evolutionary benefits and it's a quality that ties directly into concepts like racism. It's not the whole issue, but there are definitely parts of human nature that feed into racist tendencies

 

[iaproject]

The problem is majority of the people don't stand up /speak up. How do you go to a family member house for dinner, when you know regurgitated Fox News is on the menu?

 

[infinite]

Yeah, the larger point is that you acknowledge and act on it. Just saying you benefit/contribute to white privilege isn't enough. I can make that more clear. The fact is a lot of people, even here, can't even get past that initial point, but I can see how it comes off performative.

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It’s a completely vacuous and self serving statement. It’s just folks waxing poetic instead there being like real analysis on how unequal the world is along racial lines. Like we had the whole defund the police conversation and people would much rather discuss the marketability of the phrase then what it is actually calling attention to. People don’t want to think about how shit they do like hoard resources is white supremacy.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

I’m going to refer to my other post, as it remains my response.

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I'm trying to understand though. I don't mind if you say I contribute, but I can't stop contributing unless I understand how I'm contributing by being white. I'm not in a position of power where I can alter the systemic issues other than speaking out and voting. I speak out whenever I see/hear racism from friends, family, and coworkers.

 

[Scottt]

Racism has nothing to do with human nature let’s not do this in this thread at least.

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Seconded. It has no place in developing anti-racist action.

 

[jcs]

This is probably the single biggest issue here on ERA: the thought that because you hold virtuous values in other areas, you cannot possibly also be racist.

"I'm not racist, I vote progressive/believe in equity/am a socialist/am a social activist/etc."

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Or the Era classic, “I have a POC wife or partner and she doesn’t have a problem with it”.

 

[BlueKaty]

If you ever let a racist remark fly, from a friend or from a stranger, you’ve done your part to contribute to white supremacy.

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I don't and it has lead to problems with family but I don't wanna discuss this here.

There is a little “not all cops” flavor to this post.

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Just for clarification I think "not all cops" is an extremely stupid thing that just tries to undermine the actual problem. From my experience it's only used by right wing assholes, I'd never support that.

 

[fanboi]

Seconded. It has no place in developing anti-racist action.

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This is true, but it is always good to know what causes X, and I am not saying that human nature is a catch all thing for that, of course not. But the discussion was to replace capitalism with something else and my counter argument was that most likley any other model would garner the same result.

 

[Sunster]

I'm trying to understand though. I don't mind if you say I contribute, but I can't stop contributing unless I understand how I'm contributing by being white. I'm not in a position of power where I can alter the systemic issues other than speaking out and voting. I speak out whenever I see/hear racism from friends, family, and coworkers.

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just start by beginning the inward journey of unlearning your bias' and outward journey of listening to POC when they talk about their oppression and how you can help. No one is saying you need to overthrow the government.

 

[Robinson]

The most important lesson for white people to learn is that racism is not a binary thing. Lots of white people (myself included before I knew better) think of racism as a black and white issue - you're either a horrible racist or you're not. This is why white people get so defensive when accused of being racist. It's not that simple. Racism and white supremacy are so ingrained into our society that we, as white people, contribute to it and benefit from it all the time without even noticing. If you're a white person, you grew up accustomed to white privilege, and that has made you at least a little racist. You might agree that white people shouldn't say the n-word, but you'll still laugh to yourself at racist jokes or accents. You might vote blue every time, but you'll still feel ever so slightly uncomfortable talking to people of color.

 

[scurker]

It should not be the end all be all, no, it is simply the first step. As they say, the first step is acknowledging there is a problem. We can't expect to fix the wider issue if we can't acknowledge our own complicity.

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I don't necessarily agree, which is why I said it's only a small piece of the puzzle and where I think some of the criticism of White Fragility is coming from. The point being self-reflection without action is meaningless. I think we generally agree from your OP, I just wanted to point out people have criticized White Fragility for this very thing.

Here's some other alternatives I have seen:

• White Tear/Brown Scars - https://books.catapult.co/products/...feminism-betrays-women-of-color-by-ruby-hamad
• Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People about Race - https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/wh...-people-about-race-reni-eddo-lodge/1125377174
• How to be an Anti-Racist - https://www.ibramxkendi.com/how-to-be-an-antiracist

I see So you want to talk about race was also suggested above, which is also a good pick

 

[fanboi]

The most important lesson for white people to learn is that racism is not a binary thing. Lots of white people (myself included before I knew better) think of racism as a black and white issue - you're either a horrible racist or you're not. This is why white people get so defensive when accused of being racist. It's not that simple. Racism and white supremacy are so ingrained into our society that we, as white people, contribute to it and benefit from it all the time without even noticing. If you're a white person, you grew up accustomed to white privilege, and that has made you at least a little racist. You might agree that white people shouldn't say the n-word, but you'll still laugh to yourself at racist jokes or accents. You might vote blue every time, but you'll still feel ever so slightly uncomfortable talking to people of color.

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This is very good and I agree 100%.