Who else prefers the light saber fights of the Star Wars Prequals ?

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,193
All this talk about "weight" do you guys realise what a lightsabre is ? It's not a regular sword.

Lightsabres don't have any weight outside of the hilt. That should significantly change how you swing one vs a sword where the blade has all the weight. Try to swing a stick vs a flashlight...and imagine the flashlight has a blade of light coming out of it that can cut you instantly and then try to move it and see how difficult it'd be to do that without any weight or feedback.

Why do you think they say only force users can use the weapon and it's dangerous to use one if you aren't a force user? It's because they can sense where the sabre is using the force, allowing them to effectively use the weapon despite it not having any weight.


tldr, Lightsabres are special because they have no weight. And giving them weight is all wrong.
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,193


Also Kylo and 'the girl'

Lol
Honestly this whole thing lasts like a quarter of a second and they only spin it once followed by a clash, but the gif is looping so it seems like that's all they do.

When you think of how force users have precognition you understand why most of the time they are just clashing sabres. So a little bit of silly flair could confuse the other person and leave an openinf. Atleast that's the idea.
 

Dommo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
760
Australia
Which is all wrong because the lightsabres shouldn't have any weight outside of the hilt. That's pretty much the whole reason why only force users can effectively use a lightsabre and no one else since they can sense where the sabre is using the force.
They're made up magic swords. There's no logically wrong way to approach how they work. In the OT, the actors were told to treat the lightsabers as though the energy of the blade was heavy as fuck. They're these great powerful monstrous things that are difficult to control. That obviously all went out the window for the PT but that's a retcon of the prequels. It's not a failure of the OT.
 

Doober

The Fallen
Jun 10, 2018
3,053
They're made up magic swords. There's no logically wrong way to approach how they work. In the OT, the actors were told to treat the lightsabers as though the energy of the blade was heavy as fuck. They're these great powerful monstrous things that are difficult to control. That obviously all went out the window for the PT but that's a retcon of the prequels. It's not a failure of the OT.
Wasn't the inspiration for the OT sabre fights old samurai movies?
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,193
They're made up magic swords. There's no logically wrong way to approach how they work. In the OT, the actors were told to treat the lightsabers as though the energy of the blade was heavy as fuck. They're these great powerful monstrous things that are difficult to control. That obviously all went out the window for the PT but that's a retcon of the prequels. It's not a failure of the OT.
Well then why is it wrong that the PT have "no weight"? It's fine when a made up sword is weighty but not when it's not weighty?
 
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Dommo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
760
Australia
That's dismissive. It may be made up but there is a logic to them that makes them different than a glow stick.
I'm not saying "who cares it's a dumb toy." I'm saying that because they're made up, there's no one scientifically accurate direction to take. As I said, the lightsaber in the OT does have an internal logic to it: it's a mystical, dangerous and super powerful weapon with a whole bunch of energy pumping out of it, therefore, it's really heavy. That makes as much sense as anything else given the entirely fictitious nature of the fantasy weapon.

EDIT to address your edit: It's not wrong for the PT to have no weight. It just doesn't make any more or less sense than the alternative because it's a fictional weapon, so I don't think your argument holds up.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,159
All this talk about "weight" do you guys realise what a lightsabre is ? It's not a regular sword.

Lightsabres don't have any weight outside of the hilt. That should significantly change how you swing one vs a sword where the blade has all the weight. Try to swing a stick vs a flashlight...and imagine the flashlight has a blade of light coming out of it that can cut you instantly and then try to move it and see how difficult it'd be to do that without any weight or feedback.

Why do you think they say only force users can use the weapon and it's dangerous to use one if you aren't a force user? It's because they can sense where the sabre is using the force, allowing them to effectively use the weapon despite it not having any weight.


tldr, Lightsabres are special because they have no weight. And giving them weight is all wrong.
Dooku compared Anakin's strikes to a meteor strike, they have weight to them
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,887
have you swung a super light object? it's pretty easier to move it quickly without tiring yourself. a lot of small rapiers or even fencing swords don't exhaust or add a whole lot of weight. now add super strength and it's even way less.
Fencing swords are piercing, not slicing. Entirely different body mechnics involved. And fencers have more weight to their movement anyway.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,887
b-b-but the light saber beams don’t have any weight




that’s momentum/force/velocity, not weight
In this context it is weight because "weight" is a slightly loose term to describe all of those things coming together in a realistic physical way.

Also the weight of the person moving themselves is involved, not just the sabre.
 
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Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,193
Dooku compared Anakin's strikes to a meteor strike, they have weight to them
That'd be different, when a sabre hits another sabre it doesn't go through but clashes so ofcourse there'll be weight while blocking because there's resistance. The swing on the other hand for the person swinging the sabre shouldn't have any weight.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,887
That'd be different, when a sabre hits another sabre it doesn't go through but clashes so ofcourse there'll be weight to the attack because there's resistance. The swing on the other hand shouldn't have any weight.
The swing should though, because extra force is required to attempt to break through the opponent's guard.

The idea of a controlled Sith gently pirouetting is entirely against their ethos anyway. Ren was maybe the first time I've seen a Sith fight on screen how a Sith should fight given their nature. Chaotic and heavy.

A Jedi is more in-line with grace, but even then a sabre battle is a force battle, and force being thrown around, countered, balanced...Vs a Dark side user... that is going to be weighty. The PT never looked right here, imo.

Jedi vs non-force users should look elegant.
Jedi vs Jedi probably too.

Jedi Vs Sith should be weighty and messy, unless the Jedi is far beyond the Sith fighter and can focus to the point they Neo their way through the fight.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,304
I'm not trying to be a smart ass but I wonder how much of the hate for the Prequel fights is just an extension of hate for the Prequels themselves?

Like I don't know I don't see these critiques for over the top Wuxia style fighting often otherwise. Like if people watched this outside of Star Wars would you till dislike it? Just wondering.

I like the over the top fights but the slower paced sequel fights are great too. Can't really say which I prefer.
It's because of the lightsaber battles that there's dislike for the prequels. They're just one component, alongside the terrible scripts, acting, effects and storytelling, that add up to a terrible trilogy of films which don't measure up to the OT.
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,304
The prequel fights were way too perfectly choreographed in my opinion. They didn’t feel like fights. I like a lot of the prequel fights but I liked the TFA one more
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,863
Good wuxia and martial arts movies are able to do impressive fight choreography while also allowing the characters to express their personalities and current states of mind in their movements during the fight. The prequels only get one half of the equation right, and only barely since a lot of it can come across as a dance routine. A bunch of guys flipping around waving their laser swords at each other until the Force* wills that one of them gets a limb sliced off.

*script
 

Maligna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,437
Canada
I like aspects of them better but when the lightsaber user just stands there and flourishes it's hella dumb and makes me hate it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,076
England
It's because of the lightsaber battles that there's dislike for the prequels. They're just one component, alongside the terrible scripts, acting, effects and storytelling, that add up to a terrible trilogy of films which don't measure up to the OT.
In all fairness nothing does. Star Wars has consistently failed to live up to the legacy of the original trilogy for thirty six years. It's too large a shadow and even Disney's plan to surpass the original trilogy by essentially remaking it has thus far not been exactly what I'd consider successful. That's in spite of the fact it relies heavily on people's nostalgia for the original trilogy by bringing back the characters and using similar designs to the Empire for its antagonists.

Why do you think nobody wanted to direct the prequel trilogy? Lucas asked Zemeckis, Spielberg, even Ron Howard, to direct The Phantom Menace and they all said no because they didn't think you could follow up the original trilogy at all. So Lucas directed the prequel trilogy himself and, despite having amazing ideas, he wasn't very good at putting his vision into motion.

Then we have the sequel trilogy, which is devoid of any creativity at all and frankly only has two good characters in the whole thing because everyone else is either wasted, misused or not done justice. There's no spark in it, like the soul of Star Wars is gone and replaced by something more cynical and "real" instead of a fantasy story of heroes and space wizards and good overcoming evil.

Maybe Star Wars would've been better off if there had only ever been the three movies and The Clone Wars to serve as a prequel.
 

Starsunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
409
The PT aren't fights, its dancing with glowsticks.

And because the plot and characters are show shit, I there is NO weight during the fight.

I feel more emotion and suspense watching this adorable little old guy turn



then I feel with ANY fight in the PT.
Im the opposite, I feel none in that gif. Slow and sad.
I would love the good characters of the OT and the lightsaber battles of the PT
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
10,079
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
I think within it’s own cultural context it holds up way better than the 2000’s edge that is “badass Yoda”, and the rest of the computer generated fights.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,832
All this talk of weight. Maybe the sword beam, weightless as it is, experiences some kind of resistance against the air. I mean, it still exists and interacts with objects. It makes noise, not just from clashing, but from simply waving around in the air.

Perhaps it's more like swinging a, I don't know, a kite than swinging a nothing.
 

Gaia Lanzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
I was not expecting literally every person in the Jedi order to be sword masters, even less a "badass" Yoda lol

Was Yoda getting artheritis after landing in Dagoba ever explained in the canon?
I would've thought a better Yoda vs Dooku fight would've consisted of Dooku trying to best Yoda via his lightsaber, but Yoda only using telekinesis and quick side-steps to best Dooku. Basically, Yoda being a Jedi Master that he doesn't' NEED to be hopping around while using a lightsaber. All he has to do is move a few steps side to side and send some things flying at you from around the room to take you out, or at least subdue you (because Yoda, at this point, would just render you helpless but not kill you). And that would also be similar to martial arts movies where the master takes on the fiery, cocky student and no matter how hard the student tries, he can't even land one hit on the master, but all it takes is just one casual hit and the master takes down the student. THAT, IMO, would've been the BEST way to represent a Yoda fight.

No thank you!

Seeing Yoda flip around with a tiny lightsaber was laughable garbage in the 2000's, still is right now.

The thing I've noticed about the 00s (and late 90s) was that it was about pointless "cool-for-the-sake-of-cool," "hip-for-the-sake-of-hip", but lack of substance beyond that. Not just SW, that seeped into other aspects of the decade. Like a LOT of different things were created out of the question, "Hey, you know what would be COOL?!" That was the thought process through the 00s (and as I said, a bit of the late 90s as well).
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,241
It looked goofy in normal speed too it's less noticeable the first time you watch it because there a lot going, second time it becomes unmissably glaring.

Anyway it feels odd in a thread where there's plenty of valid takes picking apart prequel choreography from a pedantic mindset that people are taking issue when's applied to something else.

They're all minor gripes that only someone with far too much time on their hands would spend any large amount of time thinking about.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
4,863
All this talk of weight. Maybe the sword beam, weightless as it is, experiences some kind of resistance against the air. I mean, it still exists and interacts with objects. It makes noise, not just from clashing, but from simply waving around in the air.

Perhaps it's more like swinging a, I don't know, a kite than swinging a nothing.
I think some old EU books mention that there's some kind of electromagnetic field resistance when the blade is activated. It's light, but it feels sort of like swinging a fan around. Of course the idea was never consistently applied and is probably non-canon now.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,241
They're made up magic swords. There's no logically wrong way to approach how they work. In the OT, the actors were told to treat the lightsabers as though the energy of the blade was heavy as fuck. They're these great powerful monstrous things that are difficult to control. That obviously all went out the window for the PT but that's a retcon of the prequels. It's not a failure of the OT.
I mean why would energy be extremely heavy, you've explained why they decided to change it within the post because the original interpretation made even less sense. None of them made sense but it's more the diffeent 1+1-3 vs 1+1=5000. There's a lot more glaringly wrong with an energy blade being very heavy because the hilts sure as hell aren't.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,491
All this talk about "weight" do you guys realise what a lightsabre is ? It's not a regular sword.
How bout dramatic weight, great dialog and genuine emotional conflict between the characters?

You know what movie had the best Star Wars-esque fight since ESB that didn't involve sabers?

This one:

 

kaebie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
721
In all fairness nothing does. Star Wars has consistently failed to live up to the legacy of the original trilogy for thirty six years. It's too large a shadow and even Disney's plan to surpass the original trilogy by essentially remaking it has thus far not been exactly what I'd consider successful. That's in spite of the fact it relies heavily on people's nostalgia for the original trilogy by bringing back the characters and using similar designs to the Empire for its antagonists.

Why do you think nobody wanted to direct the prequel trilogy? Lucas asked Zemeckis, Spielberg, even Ron Howard, to direct The Phantom Menace and they all said no because they didn't think you could follow up the original trilogy at all. So Lucas directed the prequel trilogy himself and, despite having amazing ideas, he wasn't very good at putting his vision into motion.

Then we have the sequel trilogy, which is devoid of any creativity at all and frankly only has two good characters in the whole thing because everyone else is either wasted, misused or not done justice. There's no spark in it, like the soul of Star Wars is gone and replaced by something more cynical and "real" instead of a fantasy story of heroes and space wizards and good overcoming evil.

Maybe Star Wars would've been better off if there had only ever been the three movies and The Clone Wars to serve as a prequel.
So you were just waiting for someone to post something generally negative so you could pounce and try to make this yet another fucking insipid TFA/TLJ back and forth hate thread. Take this word vomit to the Star Wars OT. The sweet irony is your comment is more "cynical" than the ST btw.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,398
I think the prequels finally got it right with the Anakin vs. Obi Wan fight. There's the one pointless twirling part that everyone makes fun of, but the rest is really good.

I feel the rots one is too long. Palp vs Yoda was timed and paced far better imo.

Love tlj's fight involving Rey and Kylo. Beautiful and meaningful from start to finish.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,032
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
What

The Luke v Vader fights in TESB and ROTJ are the best in all the movies. Luke in TESB is clearly inexperienced and fighting against someone in total control.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,398
Prequel duels are great and exactly as they should be. Two sides who have been practicing for a thousand years now at the peak of their craft. Without real wars to fight, of course lightsaber techniques would become a refined art.

"An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age."

People who don't understand this and just want it to be like the OT have dull imaginations.
Obi-wan and Vader never fought like that in the OP, and Vader was easily a powerhouse. There's plenty of imagination that can be done without random flips.

Ex: the light saber part of Yoda and Sidious is just a bunch of flips. However, the reckless tossing of Senate pods versus Yoda's more controlled throw was fun and creative, not to mention how much fun Sidious had with it.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,189
Sorry, I preferred the ones where they looked like they were trying to kill each other, even if the choreography was more complex.

I also liked Inigo vs Wesley in The Princess Bride. But, give me Kmicic vs Wołodyjowski in The Deluge (Potop) over that, any time.
 

Lord Hypnos

Member
Oct 31, 2017
556
UK
Honestly, the lightsaber fights in the Prequels were one of the things I disliked the most and that's saying a lot considering how bad those movies could be. Then to add insult to injury we get to see Yoda flipping about at the end of AotC, it really was the turd-flavoured icing on an already shite cake.
 

Beef Supreme

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,527
I prefer the sequel fights any day over the prequel and I'll even explain to you why. In the Rey / Kylo fight you're referring, you have 3 figures standing in a beautifully lit, beautifully lit, snowy background. Kylo takes Rey down and her friend, despite knowing that he's going to be killed, takes up the lightsaber and stands above protecting Rey. Declaring that if Kylo wants the saber, he will have to "Come and take it". Kylo then arrogantly comes to take almost mocking him with one handed swings. like a cat would toying with its food, until Finn gets a lucky swing in. That's Kylo gets pissed and grabs the saber with both hands and comes at him with an intent to kill. He then tries to call the lightsaber to him, but it goes over his head and into the hands of its chosen master. They then fight until Rey is almost bested and then the Force awakes.

I've been critical about JJ Abrams and his fan service, but thing he completely got right was that duel. Like the OT it had emotion, a story and an amazing setting. Not to mention THEY WERE ACTUALLY TRYING TO HIT EACH OTHER. I could almost forgive the PT over choreographed fights if it looked they were actually trying to win instead of having a break dancing contest. This is a sword fight. You swing to maim.
 

Merv

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,243
As dumb as they seem now, I loved them back then. Even Yoda's flip outs.
 
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Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,012
I think what I liked in the prequels is that they used the force a bit more during battles.

So it felt a bit more impressive.

I like the visceral battle of Rey and Kylo in TFA. A lot.

OT was great in ROTJ, the rest was more iconic and visually stunning color work than actual "battle".

I think the last Jedi was a mixed bag on that front.

What you see in the trailers for IX looks absolutely horrendous. But I'm starting to wonder if it's because Kylo is not *trying* to strike Rey.
I got that vibe in the last teasers.




Like granddad like grandson




flippy dippies are strong in that family !
This fight was bad too. TFA was the only one to recapture the tension and drama of the original trilogy.
 

Flousn

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,251

It's not that difficult to make it harder to notice
Corridor fights work well in general in 1 vs many situations (see Daredevil, Punisher) because the physical space is so limited that it makes sense that not everybody can attack at once.
In open areas, it's extremely hard to not have people stand around aimlessly especially if you don't use cuts and shaky cam to mask this.
The TLJ scene is still a biiiiit obvious in this regard but outside of looped gifs, it's fine.
The warehouse fight in BvS for example is surprisingly well done in this regard, because batman constantly gets hit.
 

LossAversion

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,917
I honestly prefer the sloppy and crude fights we get in the new movies. It reminds me a lot of Luke Vs. Vader in RotJ. It has more emotion behind it. The prequel fights feel more like a choreographed dance (which they basically are). I mean, I enjoy the prequel fights as a spectacle but I definitely prefer the fights in the original trilogy and the new trilogy.
 

daschysta

Member
Mar 24, 2019
32
Nope. Weightless garbage.

Very little emotion or depth to them, over-choreographed and nonsensical even if the choreography is nice sometimes.

For all the problems the new trilogy has I think one of the things it does well is an evolution of the light saber combat seen in the original trilogy. It is just a little more flashy and a little more interesting, but still has a weight and feeling to it, it actually seems like emotion is being expressed.
Lightsabers are weightless sans the hilt are they not? Why would lightsaber combat be "weighty"?
 

phanphare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,941
I love how artificially narrow some people have to force the definition of the word "choreography" to be to box out anything but the prequels in an effort to give them some kind of leg up on the other movies. "well choreography now only means flashy acrobatics so the prequels obviously have the best choreography!"