Who else prefers the light saber fights of the Star Wars Prequals ?

Flousn

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,251
Lightsabers are weightless sans the hilt are they not? Why would lightsaber combat be "weighty"?
In the OT, they were explicitly meant to be heavy. I mean it's all science magic so you can go either way.
I always thought that the immense energy the small hilt generates makes it hard to control in the hand, a bit like a water hose.

But they also can just as well be weightless. Problem is that it's not really consistent across the trilogies.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,988
Lightsabers are weightless sans the hilt are they not? Why would lightsaber combat be "weighty"?
In the movies, they just inexplicitely are. As a kid, this is actually one of the things that bothered me about the OT's because I thought it looked dumb. If they wanted to have a weapon that had weight, they just should have had something that had weight, not this pretend crap.

I don't care about that as much as an adult, but what does fascinate me about this franchise is how many people try to make sense about a story that has no regard for making sense.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,832
In the movies, they just inexplicitely are. As a kid, this is actually one of the things that bothered me about the OT's because I thought it looked dumb. If they wanted to have a weapon that had weight, they just should have had something that had weight, not this pretend crap.

I don't care about that as much as an adult, but what does fascinate me about this franchise is how many people try to make sense about a story that has no regard for making sense.
It is a bit ridiculous when we're talking about a series in which there is audible sound in space. And starfighters maneuver, umm, magically I guess.
 

Devil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
638
Both have problems.

The prequels are too flashy at times, with moves just for the sake of looking cool. But they get the speed right.

The sequels look mote emotional but they don't look like you would imagine fighting with a very lightweight, slim, laser-like sword, though. Kylo hammering at Rey with all his power makes no sense to me. He only needs to get a contact in like in a fencing match to hurt or even kill her immediately. There is no need for a strong swing like you would swing a heavy sword in order to maximize damage. You only slow yourself down and are easy to hit back that way.

Ideally the fights would be as quick as the prequels with less choreography and more tension in each strike and parade. Like fencing.

Fake edit:
I don't care too much about space drama realism but it just looks silly if you swing a lightweight beam sword like a heavy warhammer.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,988
It is a bit ridiculous when we're talking about a series in which there is audible sound in space. And starfighters maneuver, umm, magically I guess.
The only rationale I've ever really heard that even marginally explains all this bullshit is that these are meant to be exaggerated stories about stuff that happened, but not the way it's actually happened. That's why have that storybook introduction of "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...", to hint that this is a story that's passed around rather than literal events.

It makes other incredulous events more plausible. "Did they really blow up the entire planet of alderaan? Like, to smithereens?" No, they probably just carpet bombed it or something. "Is the death star really the size of a moon? With a single vulnerability that's so small, but so devastating htat one shot can destroy everything?" No, it's probably just a really big, really powerful space station, but still vulnerable and the rebels just damaged it enough to win the battle.

Of course, this becomes a crutch if you use it to excuse everything.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,076
England
It is a bit ridiculous when we're talking about a series in which there is audible sound in space. And starfighters maneuver, umm, magically I guess.
We live in the age of CinemaSins, sadly. I mean, I think The Last Jedi has more than a few issues yet way too many people repost the same three or four second gifs where one tiny little thing is off and act as though it ruins everything.

I guess that's just what discourse is now. People going frame by frame, finding mistakes and complaining about them. They seem to have forgotten it's about the ideas and themes, the creativity and designs, not the plot holes and goofs. Save that shit for the IMDB trivia section.
 

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,143
Netherlands
They absolutely sucked if you're sensitive to lights and the camera made them the focus of the screen.

I rewatched some scenes on yt and it was unbearable.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,739
Toronto
No thank you!

Seeing Yoda flip around with a tiny lightsaber was laughable garbage in the 2000's, still is right now.

That's where my brain finally checked-out of that movie and just waited for it to end.

Honestly, I would have had Yoda use his lightsaber telekinetically. It would have made much more sense than a geriatric muppet flipping 6 feet into the air. But, the prequels were all about them flips.
 

EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,820
California
I find the duels in the prequel trilogy to be overly choreographed for my tastes. They just do not feel like much like a struggle to defeat the adversary.

The duels in the original and sequel trilogies may be overplayed but they also come across as if the fighters really do have a stake in the outcome and that is more interesting to me.
 

EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,820
California
That's where my brain finally checked-out of that movie and just waited for it to end.

Honestly, I would have had Yoda use his lightsaber telekinetically. It would have made much more sense than a geriatric muppet flipping 6 feet into the air. But, the prequels were all about them flips.
I just don't see why Yoda needs a lightsaber at all. In just about any duel he would be at a severe reach and weight disadvantage. He ought to be using a completely different type of weapon altogether.

But honestly, I just feel having Yoda fight like that diminishes the character as he was presented in The Empire Strikes Back. We were expecting a powerful warrior type and are instead confronted by this tiny frog thing who actually has such a powerful connection with the Force that he can move a starfighter with his hand. He was even later shown to be able to not only absorb Force lightning but to redirect it back to Dooku. I feel Yoda should have been portrayed as a being who was so powerful with the Force that he transcended the need to carry a lightsaber.
 

SparkleMotion

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,279
I just don't see why Yoda needs a lightsaber at all. In just about any duel he would be at a severe reach and weight disadvantage. He ought to be using a completely different type of weapon altogether.

But honestly, I just feel having Yoda fight like that diminishes the character as he was presented in The Empire Strikes Back. We were expecting a powerful warrior type and are instead confronted by this tiny frog thing who actually has such a powerful connection with the Force that he can move a starfighter with his hand. He was even later shown to be able to not only absorb Force lightning but to redirect it back to Dooku. I feel Yoda should have been portrayed as a being who was so powerful with the Force that he transcended the need to carry a lightsaber.
Yoda and Sidious should have had the most badass Force face off ever. Instead we get nonsense lightsaber twirling.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,739
Toronto
I just don't see why Yoda needs a lightsaber at all. In just about any duel he would be at a severe reach and weight disadvantage. He ought to be using a completely different type of weapon altogether.

But honestly, I just feel having Yoda fight like that diminishes the character as he was presented in The Empire Strikes Back. We were expecting a powerful warrior type and are instead confronted by this tiny frog thing who actually has such a powerful connection with the Force that he can move a starfighter with his hand. He was even later shown to be able to not only absorb Force lightning but to redirect it back to Dooku. I feel Yoda should have been portrayed as a being who was so powerful with the Force that he transcended the need to carry a lightsaber.
He needed some lightsaber bankai that would have made Tite Kubo roll his eyes.
 

Flousn

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,251
We live in the age of CinemaSins, sadly. I mean, I think The Last Jedi has more than a few issues yet way too many people repost the same three or four second gifs where one tiny little thing is off and act as though it ruins everything.

I guess that's just what discourse is now. People going frame by frame, finding mistakes and complaining about them. They seem to have forgotten it's about the ideas and themes, the creativity and designs, not the plot holes and goofs. Save that shit for the IMDB trivia section.
This is the big one. I ant describe how much I hate this nitpicking culture. I also blame cinemasins for popularizing this way of looking at movies even more. It seems like a sizable portion of the audience goes into a movie to intellectually defeat it and if they find any "mistakes", the film is trash.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,563
Yoda and Sidious should have had the most badass Force face off ever. Instead we get nonsense lightsaber twirling.
The most hilarious part in that fight is that's sidious was too busy laughing to notice that Yoda had caught the senate chair he threw at him, was slowly turning it around, before throwing it back at him, it's hilarious that he acts surprised after literally watching it happen
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,080
OT obviously.

The technical skill is much higher in the prequels but they are horrible directed as are most CG fests. When you see the OG movies and Vader and Luke are fighting it is so much more raw and emotional, and that is created by the lighting, the cuts and the music. Now its just a videogame like CG fest, which is great for the spectacle but it doesn't carry the same weight.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,242
I feel like you’re caught on the semantics here, not literal weight.
I mean it literally would be due to "weight" since what people are referring to is momentum and impact. How much moment and impact force do you think you get if you fought with a hollow light plastic bar?

It's impossible to have "weighty" combat with a light object outside from extreme illogical over acting (pretending like you were hit by a car when prodded sort of overacting). It's the nature of the beast.
 

THErest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,832
We live in the age of CinemaSins, sadly. I mean, I think The Last Jedi has more than a few issues yet way too many people repost the same three or four second gifs where one tiny little thing is off and act as though it ruins everything.

I guess that's just what discourse is now. People going frame by frame, finding mistakes and complaining about them. They seem to have forgotten it's about the ideas and themes, the creativity and designs, not the plot holes and goofs. Save that shit for the IMDB trivia section.
Yeah, but if you can find one flaw or mistake, it proves you're smarter than the filmmaker(s), and everyone should know it!!!!
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,918
The coolest camera work from the PT was Anakin vs Obi when they were fighting in a narrow hallway.
 
OP
OP

Compass

Member
Mar 23, 2019
154
Surprised people hating on Yoga Vs Dooku. I still distinctly remember my entire theater screaming/cheering in excitement
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,563
All of the good PT era fights are in Clone Wars, where it doesn't look like dance choreography but more so like they're trying to kill each other without the roughness seen in the OT and ST. There's also a lot more detail in the body language what with the characters leaning into their swings and out of the way even when parrying. Because it's a lightsaber and one mistake=RIP


The issue with the PT is that it never seems like parrying even really matters, so many hits seem like they'd just stop or miss entirely. The idea itself is good, jedi and sith in their prime, it like so many things in the PT has flawed execution due to the wrong priorities.
 
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John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,139
Santa Destroy
In a JJ interview I read recently, though I think it was Daisy who said it, lightsabers in 7 and 8 were intentionally heavy to give more of a “broadsword” style to lightsaber combat, more weight and visceral impact.

In 9, they actually lightened them.
So the new movie intentionally bridges the combat more between PT and ST. I expect a bit more theatrics. Maybe a middle ground.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
4,259
Southern California
It looked goofy in normal speed too it's less noticeable the first time you watch it because there a lot going, second time it becomes unmissably glaring.

Anyway it feels odd in a thread where there's plenty of valid takes picking apart prequel choreography from a pedantic mindset that people are taking issue when's applied to something else.

They're all minor gripes that only someone with far too much time on their hands would spend any large amount of time thinking about.
Agreed. "Lets nitpick but not the shit I like". People are funny.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,563
In a JJ interview I read recently, though I think it was Daisy who said it, lightsabers in 7 and 8 were intentionally heavy to give more of a “broadsword” style to lightsaber combat, more weight and visceral impact.

In 9, they actually lightened them.
So the new movie intentionally bridges the combat more between PT and ST. I expect a bit more theatrics. Maybe a middle ground.
We can see that in the brief glimpses of the saber fight.
 

Moleculoman

Member
Nov 17, 2017
33
People keep saying this, but you act as if he's a normal person. I would expect Jason Bourne to act differently when hurt and he does. You'd think someone who can literally stop a laser mid-air with his force could just, ya know, crush Rey's kneecaps even while hurt.

There's no setup as to why Kylo would reasonably lose other than the writers needed him to lose. He outclassed her all the way. His injury is a non-factor.
He's trying to recruit Rey to his side. Kylo is toying with her/holding back. He does not want to severely injure her. Now....when she finally finds her resolve to fight back, she overwhelms him. He loses his confidence, and the adrenaline rush that was staving off the pain of being shot by a bowcaster. He's not anywhere near tip top shape to stave her off.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,345
Long Island
Hell no, I hate all that flipping around shit.
It's like when zombies started running, unnecessary spin

Plus this was a horrible scene, like the acting was intentionally bad
 

Mocha

Member
Dec 9, 2017
303
I like the flashy elegant look in the prequel. It really felt like a different era where jedi's knew how to use their lightsabers

The new episodes are cool too it shows a rougher way the lightsabers can be used but I prefer if they use some of the flashy moves from the prequel.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
21,563
There's no setup as to why Kylo would reasonably lose
I love how literally the first Kylo scene in TLJ explained it for the people who apparently didn't get why Kylo lost.


Movie literally showed that he couldn't pull a lightsaber outside of the snow and you are asking why he didn't just crush Rey's kneecaps with the force? 😂

Just because choreography refers only to the movement of actors in a scripted sequence doesn't mean it's purely a technical feat. I don't really understand why you're dismissing the choreography of the OT because "it's only being used to tell story and build emotion." That should literally be the first and foremost objective of choreography in any sense. Why should they stand alone from the story? It's there to supplement the story in the same way everything else in the films is. I understand there's a distinction to be made that the PT choreography is technically far more complex and sophisticated, but I'm not understanding why you choose to hold that as the final definition of good choreography.

Empire Strikes Back has the best choreographed fight in any Star Wars film because it's actively telling story through its choreography. Every action and movement is done to show the shifting power dynamics of the terrifying seasoned veteran vs the desperate underdog who is ultimately completely belittled and embarrassed. You can watch that sequence and understand the storytelling exactly, just through its clear and digestible action. In this sense the sequence stands on its own far better than any of the prequel fights. If you were to show someone who'd never seen Star Wars before the ESB sequence then a prequel fight they'd have a far easier time digesting and understanding what the actual story is of the former than the latter. The latter looks cool, but it barely ever actually assists the narrative. The story just... halts. Some ting ting swish swish happens. And then we get back to the story. I'd classify that as almost objectively bad choreography.
👏
 

Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,058
The light saber fight in TFA was good. The throne room fight in the Last Jedi is just terrible (although it looks cool, similar to many PT light saber fights) but it gets a free pass from a lot of people since it isn't in the PT.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
10,079
That's where my brain finally checked-out of that movie and just waited for it to end.

Honestly, I would have had Yoda use his lightsaber telekinetically. It would have made much more sense than a geriatric muppet flipping 6 feet into the air. But, the prequels were all about them flips.
Yeah, even telekinetic light saber action would have been better than Yoda flips.

Like just have him meditate while a cackling Sidious fights a flying light saber.
 

egg

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,447
y'all irritate my soul posting this gif as if it's the only part of this entire fight.




this is high level lightsaber dueling.
no room for error, no time for thinking, no time for waiting. they're so skilled they know each others attacks before they even happen.
 

Nairume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,679
So, like

A great movie fight will have both good fight choreography that makes for a visually engaging fight that shows the skill (or lack of skill) held by the fighters without overwhelming the audience and also tells a story through said action. The centerpiece lightsaber duels in ESB, RotJ, and TFA are really great about this. All three are well choreographed fights (with ESB and RotJ being especially good for their fight choreography because they were handled by Bob Anderson, the GOAT of hollywood swordfighting) that also communicate very clear stories through the actions of the characters, with little need for you to have to have commentary telling you what's going on. TFA, despite not being as "good" of a fight as the other two is a masterclass in showing a fight between somebody who is horrifyingly out of their element versus somebody who is wounded and emotionally distracted, leading to a well choreographed fight that is intentionally sloppy in a way that communicates so much to you without it ever being needed to be told to you.

A good movie fight will at least do one of those things. I will absolutely cop to the fact that the one duel in ANH (Vader vs Obi Wan) isn't a visually interesting fight due to the limitations they were dealing with when filming the scene. It absolutely makes up for it in how the fight still manages to communicate a very effective story, even if the fight itself is really weak. The Throne Room fight in TLJ is the opposite of this where it's a well choreographed fight that doesn't really do a lot to communicate an effective story.

A bad movie fight will do none of these things. Virtually none of the prequel fights do a good job with these elements. Far too often, the lightsaber fights, which the prequels lean far too heavily into to the point that they stop being special, just end up being little more than special effect dance videos, with poor fight choreography that elevates flashiness over the actual fighting set to gaudy music, and where characters have to frequently update you on how the fight is going because the fights themselves seldom tell stories on their own. The Anakin vs Obi Wan fight in RotS, which should have been the money shot for the entire prequel trilogy, ends up being a bloated video game cutscene that would be better at home in a Platinum produced Star Wars character action game (for the record, I would 100% buy the shit out of that game and love every second of it).
 

NiallGGlynn

Member
Apr 16, 2019
278
An enormous issue with the prequels is that most of the villains (Maul, Dooku, Grievous) are just so terrible so it's almost impossible to care about fighting them. At the very least Sheev is really entertaining in the Yoda fight and Ani/Obi has some angle (master v apprentice, friend v friend etc etc.)

The sequel trilogy has already trounced them.