Well he was 896 in A new Hope.No thank you!
Seeing Yoda flip around with a tiny lightsaber was laughable garbage in the 2000's, still is right now.
Retirment takes its toll.Well he was 896 in A new Hope.
In that GIF he is only 870 or so.
Way younger and still more agile.
OT and ST fights are so boring you almost forget these folks are super powered beings. like, kylo can stop a laser midair but he can't just crush her knee caps?
People keep saying this, but you act as if he's a normal person. I would expect Jason Bourne to act differently when hurt and he does. You'd think someone who can literally stop a laser mid-air with his force could just, ya know, crush Rey's kneecaps even while hurt.Probably not when he's been shot in the stomach with a weapon that kills normal folk in a single hit and he's an emotional wreck because he's just murdered his father. I doubt his level of focus is particularly good during that fight.
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
A lightsaber is actually more of a plasma toroid and so would have mass. It certainly wouldn't be a laser.
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
The OT is god awful with its choreography. I am surprised there are people defending it's lackluster appeal. Like, there's a reason why Geoge Lucas decided to ramp it up because his idea of force users wasn't easily translated to film until the prequel. It's pretty darn obvious what force users can do and it's the prequel trilogy. That was George Lucas vision.
Man...
I'm not saying that the PT duels are not more elaborate than the OT fights, but good choreography is not only measured in flashyess. Emotion and expression through movement are just as important as spins/second, whatever the director wants to tell with the fight.
It's perfectly fine to prefer the PT fights, but saying that the OT duels have objectively awful choreography is just wrong (besides 4 ;)).
Just because there seems to be an opening doesnt mean there really is.it's worse in the prequels. just twirling light sabers and they're allergic to aiming for body parts; it's always striking to hit the other person's lightsaber even when there's a clear opening for cutting a limb off or whatever.
I'm a fat fuck and from what I've seen ITT, if you gave me a wodden stick I'd beat up every single lightsaber wielder in the prequels. Utterly humiliate them. The force? lmao the farts more like itYeah. I like the Prequels lightsaber fights. It's an era in which Jedi and Sith are at the peak of their power, fighting-wise. They are fast, intense and between two or more people that can predict the immediate future so it was never ever going to look like a normal sword fight. The first Anaki vs Dooku fight sucked, however.
This is not correct. Emotion doesn't make good choreography. There's a reason why a lot of martial arts films excel at choreography and it isn't emotion.
It literally is the physical movement of the figures involved in the scene. Luke vs Vadar is only popular because of the emotional side, as a technical side it's pretty mediocre. ASk yourself, do you watch it because of the culmination of 3 films where Luke finally confronts Vadar and converts him or because of the swordsmanship? If the former, it's not choreography.That's a very reductive take. Choreography can have many goals and metrics to measure its quality.
I think a lot of people forget that the PT was what George envisioned as force users. Acrobat dancers with swords who use telekinesis. Canonically it makes zero sense for them to have "weight" or whatever because they are literally super forced soldiers able to crush skulls with their minds. When you see Kylo swing his saber you have to think, "Does this dude even practice his swings at all? How is he this sluggish?" Especially after he literally stops a laser mid-air in the same film. This is what consistent power is. Lucas Films should have expanded on the force abilities more in the ST. It's quite obvious that's what the intention was originally.The prequels have the best fights, period. People are forgetting that they were masters, it almost should look like a dance with how much training they got, they can read each other minds so the moves are more subtle than just striking the lightsaber at each other, plus most of the time is the prequels they are using their Jedi powers which makes the fights more interesting to look at.
It literally is the physical movement of the figures involved in the scene. Luke vs Vadar is only popular because of the emotional side, as a technical side it's pretty mediocre. ASk yourself, do you watch it because of the culmination of 3 films where Luke finally confronts Vadar and converts him or because of the swordsmanship? If the former, it's not choreography.
Jet Lee's Hero has great choreography but a lot of the fights don't really extend past the wirefu beauty of it. It's like saying the confrontation at the end with the Emperor is great choreography because you like the way it plays out emotionally.
If they were masters, they should look like they're trying to hit each other, not clearly aiming for the open air a foot above their opponent's head.The prequels have the best fights, period. People are forgetting that they were masters, it almost should look like a dance with how much training they got, they can read each other minds so the moves are more subtle than just striking the lightsaber at each other, plus most of the time in the prequels they are using their Jedi powers which makes the fights more interesting to look at.
Are there edits that make the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight exciting? Half of it should be cut for pacing.
That's emotion. It's not that good because you literally see how it needs assistance to stand on its own. It doesn't jive with the whole mythos and power behind force users as well. There's a reason why good action isn't rated because of the emotional response or how it relates to the emotions involved. It should amplify what it has. The choreography and action should stand alone as a solid piece IE "It's an OK story with amazing action". There's a lot as to what goes into good action. Drive is an excellent film that shows what quadrants can do to amplify the story telling of action of a person. The Raid can literally be just a really well executed martial arts film dedicated to well shot, well designed, and well executed fight sequences with a story you don't really care about thinking about. If you combine both you get a really amazing film like Fury Road, but that's a combination of a lot of moving and complicated parts. You could remove all the story behind Fury Road or The Raid or Hero or whatever and notice the choreography doesn't actually change in quality. You take the story beats out of the Star Wars OT and you realize just how bad it is because it cannot stand on its own. Good choreography can stand on its own.Considering the clip I posted, Luke's movement communicates his anger and rage in that moment, especially in contrast to how he moved in earlier duels, while Vader is for the first time acting defensively. The choreography is very clear in showing us what the character "are" in that moment through their movement. You can see that in essence even without ever knowing about the other films. Choreography is an art, which always aims at evoking emotion and expressing stuff. If you reduce it soleley to its mechanical aspects (which can perfectly well be the part that the choreographer focuses on), you are missing a bit part of what it takes to make a "good choreography" outside of high level martial arts movies.
Well yeah I agree the force powers are barley used in the ST for some reason, when was the last time that Kylo moved something with his mind? he can obviously do that but in the fights he is just wooden.I think a lot of people forget that the PT was what George envisioned as force users. Acrobat dancers with swords who use telekinesis. Canonically it makes zero sense for them to have "weight" or whatever because they are literally super forced soldiers able to crush skulls with their minds. When you see Kylo swing his saber you have to think, "Does this dude even practice his swings at all? How is he this sluggish?" Especially after he literally stops a laser mid-air in the same film. This is what consistent power is. Lucas Films should have expanded on the force abilities more in the ST. It's quite obvious that's what the intention was originally.
They are trying to hit each other but they are also dodging and flipping instead of just swinging their sabers, Kylo should use his force powers more often, he is barely moving his body in the fights.If they were masters, they should look like they're trying to hit each other, not clearly aiming for the open air a foot above their opponent's head.
In the ST, Kylo and Rey at least look like they're working to kill each other.
That's emotion. It's not that good because you literally see how it needs assistance to stand on its own. It doesn't jive with the whole mythos and power behind force users as well. There's a reason why good action isn't rated because of the emotional response or how it relates to the emotions involved. It should amplify what it has. The choreography and action should stand alone as a solid piece IE "It's an OK story with amazing action". There's a lot as to what goes into good action. Drive is an excellent film that shows what quadrants can do to amplify the story telling of action of a person. The Raid can literally be just a really well executed martial arts film dedicated to well shot, well designed, and well executed fight sequences with a story you don't really care about thinking about. If you combine both you get a really amazing film like Fury Road, but that's a combination of a lot of moving and complicated parts. You could remove all the story behind Fury Road or The Raid or Hero or whatever and notice the choreography doesn't actually change in quality. You take the story beats out of the Star Wars OT and you realize just how bad it is because it cannot stand on its own. Good choreography can stand on its own.
You should only go for a hit if there is an opening that is not only just possible to use, but also safe to use, and wont be closed by opponent just in time to stop your attempt.If they were masters, they should look like they're trying to hit each other, not clearly aiming for the open air a foot above their opponent's head.
In the ST, Kylo and Rey at least look like they're working to kill each other.
It's literally canon that Vader uses a fighting style that lacks mobility and makes up for it with raw power, if saber fighting were weightless that wouldn't be the case. It makes sense that Kylo would similarly use raw strength and meshes well with his early tantrums and proficiency with the force to stop a blaster shotI think a lot of people forget that the PT was what George envisioned as force users. Acrobat dancers with swords who use telekinesis. Canonically it makes zero sense for them to have "weight" or whatever because they are literally super forced soldiers able to crush skulls with their minds. When you see Kylo swing his saber you have to think, "Does this dude even practice his swings at all? How is he this sluggish?" Especially after he literally stops a laser mid-air in the same film. This is what consistent power is. Lucas Films should have expanded on the force abilities more in the ST. It's quite obvious that's what the intention was originally.
If they were masters, they should look like they're trying to hit each other, not clearly aiming for the open air a foot above their opponent's head.
In the ST, Kylo and Rey at least look like they're working to kill each other.
There's nothing engaging about the fight choreography of Luke versus Vadar or Vadar versus Obi or whatever in the OT. It is all driven by the story. The story dictated how good it is. It's why Mark's bad acting is overlooked because the story was what captivated people. Look at fight scenes or action scenes in Boardwalk Empire, they stand out on their own just because of what they are like Eli versus Agent. I agree with you that the story does add to the fight and can compliment it, but you are overestimating how well the actual fighting is done in the OT. It's literally the definition of mediocre and no one would really watch it unless the story stuck with them. Like, do you think people watch Obi Wan versus Vadar from ANH just because of how they move? Maybe some people who really love fencing, but other than that? They want to see Obi do what he does best and get slashed.You still are focusing on a very specific subset of action movies that require/want to show off a certain facet of choreography. You said it yourself, choreography is about movement. If you only accept a very specific, technically complex kind of movement as good, I don't think it makes sense to further discuss that topic.
Me personally, I enjoy the duels in ESB and ROTJ on their own because I like the focus and meaning the choreography manages to get out of every movement. I also like John Wick and the Raid because of the complexity and impact of the Movements. Both are fine, both are examples of good choreography thst excel at what they want to achieve.
There's nothing engaging about the fight choreography of Luke versus Vadar or Vadar versus Obi or whatever in the OT. It is all driven by the story. The story dictated how good it is. It's why Mark's bad acting is overlooked because the story was what captivated people. Look at fight scenes or action scenes in Boardwalk Empire, they stand out on their own just because of what they are like Eli versus Agent. I agree with you that the story does add to the fight and can compliment it, but you are overestimating how well the actual fighting is done in the OT. It's literally the definition of mediocre and no one would really watch it unless the story stuck with them. Like, do you think people watch Obi Wan versus Vadar from ANH just because of how they move? Maybe some people who really love fencing, but other than that? They want to see Obi do what he does best and get slashed.
It's not subjectively. They do not stand on their own with the story. Remember the Terminator gif where he climbs on the truck and shoots the T-1000? That can be appreciated without every knowing the Terminator story.Than we just subjectively disagree (expect obe vs vader, which Is bad and has nothing to do with the other fights in the OT).
I find the duels in ESB and RotJ gripping and memorable, even if you try to disconnect them from the story and emotions (which is not possible either way).
It's not subjectively. They do not stand on their own with the story.
Than we just subjectively disagree (expect obe vs vader, which Is bad and has nothing to do with the other fights in the OT).
I find the duels in ESB and RotJ gripping and memorable, even if you try to disconnect them from the story and emotions (which is not possible either way).
You keep going with "technical complexity". You don't seem to grasp that action / choreography are different things. They tell their own story / accentuate the story being told. All these moving parts combine to create the film you watch. If I take out the fight choreography from John Wick, what do I really get from the movie? What about The Raid? Like, The Raid exists as a fan and critical favorite because the action does service to the story not because the story is anything to write home about because there's actually very little written about the story of The Raid, and it's easily said that the action of the OT isn't really written about as some kind of well done thing. The OT trilogy, for how weird this analogy will sound, is a lot like anime. You know how in anime where it takes like 3 episodes for a fist fight to end? Like, literally 60 minutes? Most of that fight time, guess what? It's about the emotional moments because the action images on screen don't really interest the audience, it's the advancement of the characters and story beats involved. When you see Toguro fight Yusuke in the Dark Tournmanet, no one is going, "Holy shit, this is extremely well done", they think, "Man, fuck him up Yusuke, he deserves it."Man....really...
According to which grand jury that decides after which level of technical complexity fight scenes can stand on their own?
I think they're asking if you can post a YouTube video of the fight and say "this is an example of a great fight" without context. People do it all the time with action movies and it's usually a testament to the choreography and cinematography. Like we could have a whole thread of "the best Jackie Chan fights" and you wouldn't need to even see the movies to appreciate them.
In that sense, yeah, the fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in A New Hope is "bad". Lucas clearly hadn't hired a fight choreographer and didn't use stunt doubles to allow for a better fight, which isn't a problem at all if you're invested in the characters and the story but is an issue if we're talking strictly about the choreography.
I still love the fight myself but I like the prequels too so I'm just more forgiving than most.
There's nothing engaging about the fight choreography of Luke versus Vadar or Vadar versus Obi or whatever in the OT. It is all driven by the story. The story dictated how good it is. It's why Mark's bad acting is overlooked because the story was what captivated people. Look at fight scenes or action scenes in Boardwalk Empire, they stand out on their own just because of what they are like Eli versus Agent. I agree with you that the story does add to the fight and can compliment it, but you are overestimating how well the actual fighting is done in the OT. It's literally the definition of mediocre and no one would really watch it unless the story stuck with them. Like, do you think people watch Obi Wan versus Vadar from ANH just because of how they move? Maybe some people who really love fencing, but other than that? They want to see Obi do what he does best and get slashed.
You keep going with "technical complexity". You don't seem to grasp that action / choreography are different things. They tell their own story / accentuate the story being told. All these moving parts combine to create the film you watch. If I take out the fight choreography from John Wick, what do I really get from the movie? What about The Raid? Like, The Raid exists as a fan and critical favorite because the action does service to the story not because the story is anything to write home about because there's actually very little written about the story of The Raid, and it's easily said that the action of the OT isn't really written about as some kind of well done thing. The OT trilogy, for how weird this analogy will sound, is a lot like anime. You know how in anime where it takes like 3 episodes for a fist fight to end? Like, literally 60 minutes? Most of that fight time, guess what? It's about the emotional moments because the action images on screen don't really interest the audience, it's the advancement of the characters and story beats involved. When you see Toguro fight Yusuke in the Dark Tournmanet, no one is going, "Holy shit, this is extremely well done", they think, "Man, fuck him up Yusuke, he deserves it."
And that's the point.
And we're done here.Just because choreography refers only to the movement of actors in a scripted sequence doesn't mean it's purely a technical feat. I don't really understand why you're dismissing the choreography of the OT because "it's only being used to tell story and build emotion." That should literally be the first and foremost objective of choreography in any sense. Why should they stand alone from the story? It's there to supplement the story in the same way everything else in the films is. I understand there's a distinction to be made that the PT choreography is technically far more complex and sophisticated, but I'm not understanding why you choose to hold that as the final definition of good choreography.
Empire Strikes Back has the best choreographed fight in any Star Wars film because it's actively telling story through its choreography. Every action and movement is done to show the shifting power dynamics of the terrifying seasoned veteran vs the desperate underdog who is ultimately completely belittled and embarrassed. You can watch that sequence and understand the storytelling exactly, just through clear and digestible action. In this sense the sequence stands on its own far better than any of the prequel fights. If you were to show someone who'd never seen Star Wars before the ESB sequence then a prequel fight they'd have a far easier time digesting and understanding what the actual story is of the former than the latter. The latter looks cool, but it barely ever actually assists the narrative. The story just... halts. Some ting ting swish swish happens. And then we get back to the story. I'd classify that as almost objectively bad choreography.