Why are religious people almost always shown as violence loving extremists or as dumb backwards people?

[Rosebud]

Many people are affected by religious bigotry. Hell, Catholicism today is "progressive" when compared to others like Evangelicals and yet:

Catholic Church 'cannot bless same-sex unions'

The Vatican says it cannot give blessings to 'sin', in a statement endorsed by the Pope.

www.bbc.com

Can't blame people for making games with this theme when they are hurt in real life.

 

[LordFish]

Like this shit.

I'm a Christian yet I'm a rational and progressive person. I've met Atheists who yet hold hateful irrational beliefs.

People really need to understand that these things are not so black and white.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, believing in a magical sky daddy is completely rational......

 

[Kalentan]

That... clearly wasn't their point, though. They're not saying religious people are irrational, they're saying that religiosity in the face of evil is itself irrational. AKA the problem of evil, a philosophical discussion that's been had for centuries.

Click to shrink...

Oh, well, yeah I don't think like that. At least I generally don't believe God has any effect on my or others day to day life. Humans do as they will do.

Yeah, believing in a magical sky daddy is completely rational......

Click to shrink...

Ok.

 

[RPGam3r]

Religion has done plenty of damage and still does. I don't see why it should be spared being painted in a bad light.

With that said I did really like AC:Origins as a story containing religion and a protagonist that was part of it.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Oh, well, yeah I don't think like that. At least I generally don't believe God has any effect on my or others day to day life. Humans do as they will do.

Click to shrink...

do you believe humans doing what they do determines how they're judged when they die?

 

[SecondNature]

Oh, well, yeah I don't think like that. At least I generally don't believe God has any effect on my or others day to day life. Humans do as they will do.

Ok.

Click to shrink...

You said you're christian? how does god not have an effect on your day to day life? Are u saying humans are at fault for all evil?

I disagree with your definition of faith. According to the Oxford dictionary, it's "complete trust or confidence in someone or something".

Also, I didn't mean faith as a result of science. As someone who practices science and engineering on a daily basis, applying, testing, and measuring results, the decision to believe in a higher power surprised me as it was not difficult. There have been a number of major life events that I experienced, and witnessed in others lives, where I physically couldn't deny the hand of God at work. For personal reasons, I won't get into the details.

Click to shrink...

What benefit do you think belief in god gets humanity? Not sure what your faith is, but what is the consequence of not believing, in your opinion?

 

[PKrockin]

How is that weird ?

The issue is I feel like is people in this thread are basically seeing this as US citizens, a country where christianism is the majority and only think religions as christianism.

Click to shrink...

I don't like seeing family and friends make life decisions based on what way they felt some magical force pull them for the same reason I don't like seeing people make business decisions based on horoscopes. And if I were making decisions in my life based on something that's nonsense, I'd want to know so I can stop that and make better decisions for myself. Doesn't matter to me if it's religion, politics, conspiracy theories, whatever. Granted there's obviously discretion that should be applied here, but I don't see why the category of religion in particular should have a special exemption such that I shouldn't be allowed to convince anyone of what I think is the truth and vice-versa. Maybe you think there can be no truth and thus it's all an annoying waste of time?

 

[Kalentan]

do you believe humans doing what they do determines how they're judged when they die?

Click to shrink...

To an extent yeah. If someone kills in the name of God, I'd say they'd be judged harshly for that any other crimes they committed.

You said you're christian? how does god not have an effect on your day to day life? Are u saying humans are at fault for all evil?

Click to shrink...

Some people believe that God has a legit invisible hand to help them guide them throughout the day. A literal effect on what happens to them. I do not believe this happens. If I died cause I hit my head really hard, that wasn't cause of God saying I was to die then, I died cause of my choices or just a terrible accident.

I mean to an extent that any being with free will is able to enact evil. Evil isn't a measurable entity. There isn't an actual "Dark Side" "Light Side" bar for every person.

 

[brainchild]

Like this shit.

I'm a Christian yet I'm a rational and progressive person. I've met Atheists who yet hold hateful irrational beliefs.

People really need to understand that these things are not so black and white.

Click to shrink...

While I won't claim that anyone who believes in god is irrational, I will say that those who purport that god is both all loving and all powerful and allows evil to exist are using some pretty faulty logic to justify such beliefs.

I can see an all powerful god allowing evil to exist if it isn't all loving, and I can see an all loving god having no choice but to allow evil to exist if it isn't all powerful, but christians claiming that god is both all loving and all powerful but allows evil to exist anyway, regardless of the reason, are trying to have their cake and eat it too by characterizing the god they worship as perfect in every way without having to be held accountable for a malevolent force that it was perfectly capable of preventing in the first place and only came into being due to god's supposed creation. That's where many christians lose me on this issue.

 

[Draconis]

Right, that's the problem. We have a long way to go to de-normalize religion in our everyday lives. Portraying religious characters in a negative light in our fiction is just one way we can make progress.

Religion is a cancer upon civilization. What do we do with cancer? Cut it out or kill it.

Click to shrink...

So, in essence, in your view...no one is allowed to be Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, Hindu, Judaism, or, well, any belief system. Because all religion in every form has committed the most vile, heinous, evil acts, and is never capable of even the most singular iota of good.

That is how that comes off to me.

This is literally intolerance in it's purest form. So many of my Pagan friends would be shaking their heads at this, much less the woman who pretty much saved my life when I was near Death's door. And she is a Wiccan High Priestess.

But hey, intolerance in the name of purge all beliefs that don't align with mine is a good thing, right? /sarcasm

It is things like this that are the very crux of WHY I stay out of so many threads in this forum, religious ones especially. Because it's a dogpile festival where gazes are turned aside because the majority feel a certain way and agree in general with the more heavily weighed on view. Intolerance towards so many things is basically verboten. But when it comes to Religion in general, the unfortunate side of this forum just comes out en masse. It's mind boggling, and it's unfortunate.

I really, really, truly and deeply wish folks would discuss these things more civilly, towards a method of understanding and genuine discussion and debate. Not a room filled with so much anger, and hatred, and intolerant views that are set in stone and refuse to budge.

All religions have done evil things. All religions have done good things. And all religions have in one form or another, been persecuted.

That is, guess what....pretty much of all humanity in a nutshell. One reason or another, they all find reasons to do both good, and absolutely vile things. It's just whatever excuse/reason they choose to paint that decision in the light of, when they are not being genuine. It's convenient for them, and has nothing to do with their beliefs, but rather the perpetrated lie.

I really long for the day when all human beings can just come together and live side by side, peacefully, and in harmony. But I know deep down that is just a pipe dream and that fact is utterly depressing to me.

 

[SecondNature]

To an extent yeah. If someone kills in the name of God, I'd say they'd be judged harshly for that any other crimes they committed.

Some people believe that God has a legit invisible hand to help them guide them throughout the day. A literal effect on what happens to them. I do not believe this happens. If I died cause I hit my head really hard, that wasn't cause of God saying I was to die then, I died cause of my choices or just a terrible accident.

I mean to an extent that any being with free will is able to enact evil. Evil isn't a measurable entity. There isn't an actual "Dark Side" "Light Side" bar for every person.

Click to shrink...

Right, free will. But what does that have to do with the argument of evil existing? Not all evil is the result of free will.

Instead of evil, I think the better argument here is about suffering and pain, which many experience as a result of the actions of others, but also actions that are not from free will

 

[Twig]

actual human history (and current behavior), more than anything else

 

[MysticGon]

Plenty of inspiration from real world events sadly and video games as a medium still sometimes struggles with things like subtlety and nuance.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

To an extent yeah. If someone kills in the name of God, I'd say they'd be judged harshly for that any other crimes they committed.

Click to shrink...

Then peoples lives are influenced (inc yours) by the belief in god. Maybe it makes you a better person, but you can also see how it enables the opposite as well, which is what games go with.

Holy text can be interpreted in a bunch of ways (there are what 30,000 brands of Christianity?) and nobody can really prove that they're the right one.
Also the bible has some seriously questionable stuff in it that you either have to ignore or it enables horrific mindsets.

 

[AusGeno]

Like this shit.

I'm a Christian yet I'm a rational and progressive person. I've met Atheists who yet hold hateful irrational beliefs.

Click to shrink...

Do you look at the world today and thank whichever god is your personal preference for making it the way it is?

 

[Kalentan]

While I won't claim that anyone who believes in god is irrational, I will say that those who purport that god is both all loving and all powerful and allows evil to exist are using some pretty faulty logic to justify such beliefs.

I can see an all powerful god allowing evil to exist if it isn't all loving, and I can see an all loving god having no choice but to allow evil to exist if it isn't all powerful, but christians claiming that god is both all loving and all powerful but allows evil to exist anyway, regardless of the reason, are trying to have their cake and eat it too by characterizing the god they worship as perfect in every way without having to be held accountable for a malevolent force that it was perfectly capable of preventing in the first place and only came into being due to god's supposed creation. That's where many christians lose me on this issue.

Click to shrink...

Then peoples lives are influenced (inc yours) by the belief in god. Maybe it makes you a better person, but you can also see how it enables the opposite as well, which is what games go with.

Click to shrink...

Ultimately the thing is that I'm just a person. The bible was written by a person, there might be some truths while also exaggerations or even just simply putting the authors words in place of others. It's why I'm not a preacher or the like, I don't pretend to know every aspect of God nor how they work. Maybe God is a powerful but flawed being. I don't know.

Sure, that probably makes me untraditionally Christian, maybe even not Christian, but I just don't feel like I need to be put in a pigeon hole.

Right, free will. But what does that have to do with the argument of evil existing? Not all evil is the result of free will.

Click to shrink...

How so? I see evil as a consequence of having free will. But free will is better than no will at all since it also allows for good to also happen. There isn't any destiny or fate.

Do you look at the world today and thank whichever god is your personal preference for making it the way it is?

Click to shrink...

Nope, humans have made it the way it is. For both good and bad. For all of the horrors that have been committed in gods name and others, there has also been great good done by many in his name or not in his name.

 

[brainchild]

Ultimately the thing is that I'm just a person. The bible was written by a person, there might be some truths while also exaggerations or even just simply putting the authors words in place of others. It's why I'm not a preacher or the like, I don't pretend to know every aspect of God nor how they work.

Sure, that probably makes me untraditionally Christian, maybe even not Christian, but I just don't feel like I need to be put in a pigeon hole.

Click to shrink...

Feel free to believe what you believe but calling yourself a Christian is putting yourself in a pigeon hole and doing a disservice to what you actually believe, imo.

 

[King Metal Zel]

While I won't claim that anyone who believes in god is irrational, I will say that those who purport that god is both all loving and all powerful and allows evil to exist are using some pretty faulty logic to justify such beliefs.

I can see an all powerful god allowing evil to exist if it isn't all loving, and I can see an all loving god having no choice but to allow evil to exist if it isn't all powerful, but christians claiming that god is both all loving and all powerful but allows evil to exist anyway, regardless of the reason, are trying to have their cake and eat it too by characterizing the god they worship as perfect in every way without having to be held accountable for a malevolent force that it was perfectly capable of preventing in the first place and only came into being due to god's supposed creation. That's where many christians lose me on this issue.

Click to shrink...

Indeed this, it's similar to the paradox of all powerful God creating a boulder he can't lift. Can't have it both ways, really.

 

[Siggy-P]

Being religious is not inherently evil nor does it cause violence in and of itself compared to other reasons for violence.


However, from a narrative perspective is one of the few things irl that can motivate an otherwise rational person to turn on and brutally slaughter their own family members, making it a realistic motivator for an enemy npc.

In addition, if you're not part of a religion its hard not to look at it without a sense of condescension. People will say they don't but we all do. Even if you are religious you by rule view other religions as wrong and misguided. So its an easy way to present an enemy npc as morally wrong and worthy of killing to stop them.

 

[Kalentan]

Feel free to believe what you believe but calling yourself a Christian is putting yourself in a pigeon hole and doing a disservice to what you actually believe, imo.

Click to shrink...

But there is many types of Christians. No one is going to say an Evangelist is the exact same as a Catholic. Yet both are considered: "Christian".

 

[Melpomene]

Free will is always a fascinating concept to me when it's discussed in the context of a purportedly omniscient deity.

Can I have free will if God knows in advance the course of my life?

 

[molnizzle]

So, in essence, in your view...no one is allowed to be Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Pagan, Hindu, Judaism, or, well, any belief system. Because all religion in every form has committed the most vile, heinous, evil acts, and is never capable of even the most singular iota of good.

That is how that comes off to me.

This is literally intolerance in it's purest form. So many of my Pagan friends would be shaking their heads at this, much less the woman who pretty much saved my life when I was near Death's door. And she is a Wiccan High Priestess.

But hey, intolerance in the name of purge all beliefs that don't align with mine is a good thing, right? /sarcasm

It is things like this that are the very crux of WHY I stay out of so many threads in this forum, religious ones especially. Because it's a dogpile festival where gazes are turned aside because the majority feel a certain way and agree in general with the more heavily weighed on view. Intolerance towards so many things is basically verboten. But when it comes to Religion in general, the unfortunate side of this forum just comes out en masse. It's mind boggling, and it's unfortunate.

I really, really, truly and deeply wish folks would discuss these things more civilly, towards a method of understanding and genuine discussion and debate. Not a room filled with so much anger, and hatred, and intolerant views that are set in stone and refuse to budge.

All religions have done evil things. All religions have done good things. And all religions have in one form or another, been persecuted.

I really long for the day when all human beings can just come together and live side by side, peacefully, and in harmony. But I know deep down that is just a pipe dream and that fact is utterly depressing to me.

Click to shrink...

People are allowed to believe whatever they want. But I will absolutely judge them for being complicit in an evil and regressive system that is responsible for a frankly incredible amount of human suffering.

I've no patience for the false equivalence about tolerance. You need to be tolerant of the things people cannot change about themselves. Their race, their gender identity, their sexual orientation, etc. Things most religions do a pretty shitty job of being tolerant of, for the record.

You don't have to be tolerant of what anyone believes. You can change what you believe. Following a religion or even having faith in a deity is a choice. Make better choices.

The continued nonsensical belief in fairy tales is holding humanity back from achieving a more just, fair, and equitable society. Far too many believe that there is something better waiting for them after they die. Changing the world we live in today is just not enough of a priority for them.

Fuck the continued normalization of that.

Buddhism is alright though.

 

[MrNelson]

Yeah, believing in a magical sky daddy is completely rational......

Click to shrink...

I love how the ToS just seems to go out the window in these threads

We do not allow behavior or rhetoric that attacks or discriminates against users based on race, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion or disability.

 

[SecondNature]

How so? I see evil as a consequence of having free will. But free will is better than no will at all since it also allows for good to also happen. There isn't any destiny or fate.

Click to shrink...

Whats the problem of sin? It causes suffering and pain correct? Lets ignore the concept of evil for a second.

Natural disasters are not caused by free will. Religious people may blame them for sin, do you agree with that?

YEt natural disasters cause untold suffering. How do you reconcile that? God can stop suffering like cancers. God does not do so. In what ways is free will a factor here?

 

[brainchild]

How so? I see evil as a consequence of having free will. But free will is better than no will at all since it also allows for good to also happen. There isn't any destiny or fate.

Click to shrink...

An all loving, all powerful God simply could have made us with perfect nature and free will, just like every itself, but without the cool powers; such creatures would make nothing but good decisions since they would be borne out of nothing but good nature. Shouldn't be a problem for an omnipotent being.

 

[Speevy]

I'm gonna borrow one of the most common responses to my own threads and say this mostly happens on the internet or popular media.

If there's 6 billion religious people then you encounter them, befriend them, whatever if your daily life and most likely don't think much of it.

 

[MysticGon]

Feel free to believe what you believe but calling yourself a Christian is putting yourself in a pigeon hole and doing a disservice to what you actually believe, imo.

Click to shrink...

Not really. There is only one prerequisite to call yourself a Christian, regardless of how people try to redefine it.

 

[King Metal Zel]

Free will is always a fascinating concept to me when it's discussed in the context of a purportedly omniscient deity.

Can I have free will if God knows in advance the course of my life?

Click to shrink...

Reminds me of a George Carlin skit about God's plan. God's got the divine plan, but what good is it if any schmuk with a bible in hand can pray for you to change it constantly? I forget the exact wording but it was quite funny.

 

[LossAversion]

An all loving, all powerful God simply could have made us with perfect nature and free will, just like every itself, but without the cool powers; such creatures would make nothing but good decisions since they would be borne out of nothing but good nature. Shouldn't be a problem for an omnipotent being.

Click to shrink...

The classic dilemma. Either god is not omnipotent or god is an asshole.

Reminds me of a George Carlin skit about God's plan. God's got the divine plan, but what good is it if any schmuk with a bible in hand can pray for you to change it constantly? I forget the exact wording but it was quite funny.

Click to shrink...

I miss George Carlin.

 

[astro]

Are you for real?!

Click to shrink...

Astronomy?

Click to shrink...

What about this?

Galileo affair - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Click to shrink...

When someone patiently educated you like that, it's polite to say thank you.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Free will is always a fascinating concept to me when it's discussed in the context of a purportedly omniscient deity.

Can I have free will if God knows in advance the course of my life?

Click to shrink...

The concept of good and evil shirks responsibility from all parts of society which could prevent people from going down said path in the first place.

Blaming someone who grew up in an environment that never gave them a chance to grow in a healthy way as "evil" or "it was their free will to do so and they will be judged for it" is some medieval shit that still plagues us, including in this very thread.

 

[Zomba13]

The classic dilemma. Either god is not omnipotent or god is an asshole.

Click to shrink...

And when god is an asshole we get JRPGs where you attack and dethrone god!

 

[Deleted member 64609]

I love how the ToS just seems to go out the window in these threads

We do not allow behavior or rhetoric that attacks or discriminates against users based on race, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion or disability.

Click to shrink...

The loophole here is that since no specific users are being attacked it's ok, just their beliefs or similar beliefs held by non-users

 

[Kalentan]

Whats the problem of sin? It causes suffering and pain correct? Lets ignore the concept of evil for a second.

Natural disasters are not caused by free will. Religious people may blame them for sin, do you agree with that?

YEt natural disasters cause untold suffering. How do you reconcile that? God can stop suffering like cancers. God does not do so. In what ways is free will a factor here?

Click to shrink...

I'd actually argue that Natural Disasters are sadly a form of free will. It's not the traditional free will one would associate with a person but in the sense that it's a consequence of allowing a world to naturally work.

An all loving, all powerful God simply could have made us with perfect nature and free will, just like every itself, but without the cool powers; such creatures would make nothing but good decisions since they would be borne out of nothing but good nature. Shouldn't be a problem for an omnipotent being.

Click to shrink...

But is that free will? No really, if making people: "Perfect" than at that point choices aren't choices, they're just logical outcomes to perfection. Cause then if a person would make a "bad" or "wrong" choice, then they can't be perfect. At that point is anything really living?

 

[Deleted member 4852]

An all loving, all powerful God simply could have made us with perfect nature and free will, just like every itself, but without the cool powers; such creatures would make nothing but good decisions since they would be borne out of nothing but good nature. Shouldn't be a problem for an omnipotent being.

Click to shrink...

So free will but only good decisions? I'm not sure you thought this through.

 

[dark494]

But there is many types of Christians. No one is going to say an Evangelist is the exact same as a Catholic. Yet both are considered: "Christian".

Click to shrink...

That's not the point. You espoused a bunch of stuff that is very anti-christian, regardless of which sect. You cannot call yourself a christian without both pigeonholing yourself and going against your own beliefs, because you clearly do not hold what would even be considered basic christian beliefs. You can't have it both ways, you're just being naive.

 

[Turin]

Yes he does, :)

Click to shrink...

 

[brainchild]

Not really. There is only one prerequisite to call yourself a Christian, regardless of how people try to redefine it.

Click to shrink...

Right, a follower of Christ/Christ's teachings. Well, that doesn't mean that Christ was/is whoever you wanted him to be; the historicity of Christ establishes someone with specific ideals and teachings, and his Father seemed pretty perfect in his eyes, as he taught his disciples. From what you've shared of your own thoughts in this thread, I think you're a little more progressive than we all knew Christ to be according to history.

The classic dilemma. Either god is not omnipotent or god is an asshole.

Click to shrink...

Yup.

 

[SecondNature]

I'd actually argue that Natural Disasters are sadly a form of free will. It's not the traditional free will one would associate with a person but in the sense that it's a consequence of allowing a world to naturally work.

Click to shrink...

In what way does that argument make sense?

How is it different than than blaming victims for their own suffering? Do you see how this is no different than "god sends hurricanes to punish gays" (something many religious extremists say)?

This is my personal problem with "good" religious people or "rational" believers. Ultimately, when push comes to shove, a number of their beliefs allow for extremism to logically follow from their premises. Extremism doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes from "rational" or "normal" religious people tolerating illogical beliefs. These illogical beliefs get taken to completely predictable conclusions. I often find that when I talk to religious people who are "tolerant" or "loving", they often hold extremely radical beliefs that don't seem radical on the surface...but they are extreme in nature.

Truthfully, I'd argue the belief in resurrections and miracles are inherently extremist, but because they are seen as harmless, they become adopted as truth or ignored as articles of personal faith (and therefore becomes hurtful to challenge). But to me, the problem of extremism is that it stems from people not challenging these "harmless" beliefs. At the end of the day, these are bad arguments used to justify beliefs that aim to uphold god as benevolent, yet the premises of god's benevolence are inherently immoral.

So in what way are humans responsible for "allowing the world to naturally work", and how is god unable to create a world that has no natural devastation like hurricanes and cancer? Let's ignore for a second events caused by human free will like accidentally falling down a cliff and killing yourself. How are people at fault for natural disasters and cancers?

 

[Draconis]

People are allowed to believe whatever they want. But I will absolutely judge them for being complicit in an evil and regressive system that is responsible for a frankly incredible amount of human suffering.

I've no patience for the false equivalence about tolerance. You need to be tolerant of the things people cannot change about themselves. Their race, their gender, their sexual orientation, etc. Things most religions do a pretty shitty job of being tolerant of, for the record.

You don't have to be tolerant of what anyone believes. You can change what you believe. Following a religion or even having faith in a deity is choice. Make better choices.

The continued nonsensical belief in fairy tales is holding humanity back from achieving a more just, fair, and equitable society. Far too many believe that there is something better waiting for them after they die. Changing the world we live in today is just not enough of a priority for them.

Fuck the continued normalization of that.

Buddhists are alright though.

Click to shrink...

This is literally intolerance though, and the root of Hatred. I'm sorry, but it is. You are literally painting someone as having blood on their hands by simply believing in a belief system, regardless of it's roots, based on the history of said religion and not the individual in and of themselves. You are guilty of painting with an extremely broad stroke of the brush and applying what you want to see, not fact. Which is ludicrous in my mind. How many times in history have we seen that very same logic applied, regardless of the situation? Yet because you aim it how you see fit, it's perfectly fine to do so?

Frigging hell...

I am a Christian. Yet I am friends with a great many Pagans, one of which is the aforementioned High Priestess of Wicca. Not only did she save my life, but when I had nowhere to go, she took me in and clothed me, fed me, and gave me shelter when I literally had nothing. She was not even aware that I was Christian until much, much, MUCH later on, and pretty much had a freak out when I revealed that fact. Which I simply explained to her when she grew deeply concerned about it, that it was no big deal to me. She was her own person, free to live her life as she saw fit. I was not going to ever espouse my beliefs to her nor persecute her for her own thoughts and views and religious beliefs. To do so would be basically, in my view, visiting persecution upon her as was done to Christians and other religions in the past, much less the current day. She was, and is to this day, my beloved Friend. And nothing will change that. The day she leaves this world, my life will be much sadder for it. I consider my life enriched and blessed for knowing her and her being my Friend.

I have many folks in my FC in FFXIV who are also LGBTQ. Doesn't bother me one bit. I love and cherish each and every one of them and feel my life is richer for knowing them and their love and kindness and friendship. And literally EVERYTHING you said in your post above is against the grain of everything I am as a Christian and a human being who wishes to see this place become a better, more peaceful world for all.

Everyone should be free to live their life, as they see fit. If you aren't doing harm to anyone, who the fuck cares? It's all fine and good to believe the way you do, but I truly hope you can see the irony in what you are saying.

This is my problem with this. It's gatekeeping of the essence of life and how one is supposed to live. I can't agree with this. You are literally espousing the right to not be tolerant of what anyone believes, and that, in your view, they should just flat out make better choices.

Because you don't agree with it.

 

[MrNelson]

The loophole here is that since no specific users are being attacked it's ok, just their beliefs or similar beliefs held by non-users

Click to shrink...

I just find it baffling how on one hand, members of this forum can (rightfully) get up in arms when people are being persecuted for their religion (Trump's Muslim ban, Uighurs in China, etc), but then turn around and shit on those exact same people because they believe.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

But is that free will? No really, if making people: "Perfect" than at that point choices aren't choices, they're just logical outcomes to perfection. Cause then if a person would make a "bad" or "wrong" choice, then they can't be perfect. At that point is anything really living?

Click to shrink...

Is a person who grows up in an abusive household, with no opportunities and shunned by society also judged on the basis of having free will? Many of our problems as a species are systemic and fixable. Religious or otherwise we're still only interested in how to punish rather than how to create an more fair environment for everyone.

Good and Evil, Free Will, Sinners and Saints, they're all concepts that are being used by people to judge other people with no goal to actually address problems as old as time such as inequality, apathy and lack of awareness about why people are the way they are.

Religion by its nature is going to reinforce Othering. You're either one of them or you're different, and that can range from just not wanting to marry a non Christian into much, much more severe levels of othering like belief that your fellow human is going to hell for whatever reason and maybe treating them differently.

 

[Phendrift]

Because people take religion and use it to justify their terrible bigotry and atrocities, and since the only thing that defines it is people's own beliefs, other members of the religion can say "well that's terrible but they weren't a TRUE [x religion member], we're all loving!" and then the cycle continues. Thus we end up where we are now, an ever changing definition of what a religion is that's allowed them to commit terrible atrocities for centuries yet still be relevant and powerful today, affecting the lives and hurting many who these develop games probably.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

I just find it baffling how on one hand, members of this forum can (rightfully) get up in arms when people are being persecuted for their religion (Trump's Muslim ban, Uighurs in China, etc), but then turn around and shit on those exact same people because they believe.

Click to shrink...

They're able to compartmentalize it as a racial issue because that persecution is focused more on the respective groups' ethnicities while the religious aspect is largely unremarked.

 

[Kalentan]

In what way does that argument make sense?

How is it different than than blaming victims for their own suffering? Do you see how this is no different than "god sends hurricanes to punish gays" (something many religious extremists say)?

This is my personal problem with "good" religious people or "rational" believers. Ultimately, when push comes to shove, a number of their beliefs allow for extremism to logically follow from their premises. Extremism doesn't come out of nowhere. It comes from "rational" or "normal" religious people tolerating illogical beliefs.

In what way are humans responsible for "allowing the world to naturally work", and how is god unable to create a world that has no natural devastation like hurricanes and cancer? Let's ignore for a second events caused by human free will like accidentally falling down a cliff and killing yourself. How are people at fault for natural disasters and cancers?

Click to shrink...

Where and when did I say that people are at fault for natural disasters and cancer? They aren't. Our world works that way due to billions and millions of years of evolution. It's only because of people that as time has gone on that we've been able to mitigate disasters and cure diseases.

Is a person who grows up in an abusive household, with no opportunities and shunned by society also judged on the basis of having free will? Many of our problems as a species are systemic and fixable. Religious or otherwise we're still only interested in how to punish rather than how to create an more fair environment for everyone.

Good and Evil, Free Will, Sinners and Saints, they're all concepts that are being used by people to judge other people with no goal to actually address problems as old as time such as inequality, apathy and lack of awareness about why people are the way they are.

Click to shrink...

If a person grew up in abusive household that isn't their fault. That's what happens when people enact their will upon others. But that's putting simply, ignoring all of the other societal factors that led to that moment. It's the amalgamation of society's choices that have been made that led to that moment. And sadly that will continue to happen until we do address those issues, which yes, includes also moving religions to the modern age.

 

[Deleted member 4852]

Right, a follower of Christ/Christ's teachings. Well, that doesn't mean that Christ was/is whoever you wanted him to be; the historicity of Christ establishes someone with specific ideals and teachings, and his Father seemed pretty perfect in his eyes, as he taught his disciples. From what you've shared of your own thoughts in this thread, I think you're a little more progressive than we all knew Christ to be according to history.




Yup.

Click to shrink...

Its really not that simple. Jesus fundamentally changes the relationship that Christians have with God. This includes continuing to love sinners even if they exhibit beviors that go against teachings.

Edit: I should point out I have not been to a church in almost 2 decades. but i have had a fascination with religion in general.

 

[brainchild]

But is that free will? No really, if making people: "Perfect" than at that point choices aren't choices, they're just logical outcomes to perfection. Cause then if a person would make a "bad" or "wrong" choice, then they can't be perfect. At that point is anything really living?

Click to shrink...

So free will but only good decisions? I'm not sure you thought this through.

Click to shrink...

Granted, I don't believe in actual free-will, even as imperfect beings, but that's not my dilemma anyway; that's an issue for an omnipotent god to solve, which shouldn't be a problem given the omnipotence.

Having said that, free will does not presuppose that you're capable of making any decision you would like; it's about the ability to use your discretion to make choices for yourself. Now whether one would actually have real agency as a perfect being isn't much different than the agency we have as imperfect beings. If we're being reductionist, we didn't choose to be born with the capabilities and limitations on how we make choices now, so all of our choices are actually just logical outcomes of the nature that was forced upon us by evolution by natural selection. Obviously this is not what most people mean when they refer to free will.

 

[molnizzle]

I have many folks in my FC in FFXIV who are also LGBTQ. Doesn't bother me one bit. I love and cherish each and every one of them and feel my life is richer for knowing them and their love and kindness and friendship.

Click to shrink...

And yet deep down, you probably have thoughts about the nature of their identities that you wouldn't dare post publicly on ResetEra. Most mainstream religions are highly bigoted institutions. Being outwardly tolerant and friendly doesn't mean shit if internally you believe their very existence to be rooted in sin.

 

[SecondNature]

Where and when did I say that people are at fault for natural disasters and cancer? They aren't. Our world works that way due to billions and millions of years of evolution. It's only because of people that as time has gone on that we've been able to mitigate disasters and cure diseases.

Click to shrink...

"I'd actually argue that Natural Disasters are sadly a form of free will"

What does this mean? Does God not have the power to stop natural disasters? How does it impact free will? Also do you believe people can experience miracles?

 

[LordFish]

Oh, well, yeah I don't think like that. At least I generally don't believe God has any effect on my or others day to day life. Humans do as they will do.



Ok.

Click to shrink...

Please elaborate and tell me why mysticism has any place in modern society. Tell me why pastaferianism is any less ridiculous than any other religion

I love how the ToS just seems to go out the window in these threads

We do not allow behavior or rhetoric that attacks or discriminates against users based on race, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion or disability.

Click to shrink...

And I love how on a forum that is strongly against racial, sexual and gender based bigotry that you think the historical root causes of these beliefs in our society are somehow off limits. Too-fucking-rich.
Its literally no different from the "your intolerance of my intolerance is intolerant durrrr" fuckstains.