Eh I just bought a new video card for my pc and kept my stock ps4. Don't own a 4k tv, refuse to pay for online and when i read downsampling was going to be iffy it made my decision pretty easy. Hope they get the downsampling situation taken care of.
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PS4 Pro/PS5 - Native Supersampling Omissions |OT|
- Thread starter Vashetti
- Start date
No it's not.
It's up to the Dev whether they will offer separate 1080p and 4k profiles based on console-video output selector (ie. no downsampling).
This is the first time I've heard this. You're saying that if the Pro is hooked to a 1080p display, both modes are greyed out?
At least for me (and many others in the ESO community, not sure if it's universal or not), it defaults to regular 1080p, OG PS4 settings and doesn't even show the option for 1080p enhanced or 4K in the menu.
The main explanation is that Sony did a poor job on the system level, where it's up to the individual piece of software to recognize the resolution of the monitor they outputting to and make adjustments based on that, this essentially means that every game that wants to do super sampling has to implement their own method to render at a higher resolution and scale down to 1080p. Sony had the same issues with the PS3 where the software had to be aware of what kind of screen they were outputting to 480p/720p/1080p, making some games run differently based on the output mode.
Microsoft did the smartest thing for everyone with the Xbox One X where all Xbox One X aware titles always output to a 3840x2160 frame buffer, regardless if the actual content is in 4K or outputting to a 4K monitor, making it super easy for developers to allow their games to benefit from super sampling(since the scaler in the console handles this).
While i have not developed for Xbox One X or Playstation 4, i have developed a rudimentary super sampling system for Unity and while it's not hard to make a naive implementation of it, it does require considerably more work to make a good down scaling of the super sampled content compared just adjusting some config files that allow the software to use the extra resources and allow for the internal scaler to take over.
Microsoft did the smartest thing for everyone with the Xbox One X where all Xbox One X aware titles always output to a 3840x2160 frame buffer, regardless if the actual content is in 4K or outputting to a 4K monitor, making it super easy for developers to allow their games to benefit from super sampling(since the scaler in the console handles this).
While i have not developed for Xbox One X or Playstation 4, i have developed a rudimentary super sampling system for Unity and while it's not hard to make a naive implementation of it, it does require considerably more work to make a good down scaling of the super sampled content compared just adjusting some config files that allow the software to use the extra resources and allow for the internal scaler to take over.
All PS4 games output at 4K when using a Pro hooked up to a 4K panel, so not seeing how that's different from what MS are doing.
I still firmly believe it's because there's nothing in the SDK yet to allow devs to render at any native resolution and have the PS Pro upscale/downscale as appropriate.
I imagine MS's approach will allow for < 4K upscaled to 4K and then down to 1080p. IMO I'm not convinced this is optimal.
Yes, of course the PS4 needs to output a standardized output image based on its configuration, I believe the PS3 is the only console that would switch it's output mode dependent on the software.
The difference here is that the One X from what I understand always run game software at 3840x2160 internally, where as the PS4 seems to have an internal resolution of either 1920x1080 or 3840x2160.
I do think Microsoft's solution is far better because it makes supporting 1080p monitors far easier and keeps the benefits by adding supersampling, and from what we have seen it has been a big issue that developers have to explicitly add a 1080p configuration.
This is incorrect. Both consoles run software at any resolution internally, across a very wide range. Both can output either 1080p or 2160p, which they can scale to if the game is running something else. (Xbox One X will receive an update in the future that will allow 1440p output as well.)
They are (for this context) the same result, looked at from two directions. To start, games keep an internal, entirely mathematic description of their scenes. When it's time to make those scenes show up on a screen, they have to split up the immensely precise detail into the same number of pixels the screen has. This is done by sampling the scene: asking "at this point, what color is supposed to be there?" Each sample determines the color of a pixel. (In actuality, there are tons of subtleties and different techniques I'm ignoring, but that's the gist.)
If a game is rendering higher resolution than the screen it will be shown on, the image has to be shrunk. Downsampling is the process of turning many pixels into fewer. You sample, say, four adjacent pixels, and average them out to get one result, the single pixel that you're shrinking to. This creates very smooth transitions from one color to another for all the detail onscreen. That results in less shimmer and fewer jaggies for the smaller size, while still keeping maximum detail.
In reality, a game may not be rendering big and then shrinking. Rather, it might only create the small image, but instead of sampling once for each, it supersamples more--say, four times, averaging the values. The end result is the same as downsampling: smoother blends and fewer harsh edges.
Liabe, in your opinion would something like 1440p > 2160p > 1080p result in a cleaner image than a native 1080p image with decent AA?
I imagine its something about the Japanese devs locking something out that should make it trivially easy for devs to implement so they don't implement it because it involves work and QA testing when if it was done by sony the devs would just have to check a button.
OP
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Thanks for letting me know! Are you the VG Tech?
If so, your videos are really helpful!
Depends what you mean by "cleaner", and what else the game is doing. Every scaling operation introduces blur. Upscaling adds more blur than downscaling. Blur is the same thing as AA, so adding more does make jaggies and shimmering go away. It also washes out small details and makes edges less distinct.
Each person tends to evaluate a different mix of smoothness and sharpness as the "right" or "most impressive" approach. So I can say that, all other things being equal, 1440p 》2160p 》1080p would result in a smoother, softer image than 1440p 》1080p. Whether that's "cleaner" is up to each viewer. Some--especially if the game is using other blur techniques, like TAA, CA, motion blur, etc.--might find it not "cleaner" but "muddier".
One thing that complicates this is that at higher display resolutions, games can achieve the same impression (whatever that is) with less built-in blur. That's because at typical viewing distances, pixels are very small and the viewer's eyes are blending them together more. On a 4K display a native 4K game with no AA at all can be an acceptable level of sharpness to folks who'd find a 1080p no AA game on a 1080p display bad-looking and jaggy.
Could someone post some 4K and 1080p comparison shots of Smite? It's by the same studio, maybe they've changed it as well.
Thanks for your take and I think this supports the position Sony might have taken. An OS level downsample option might not always produce optimal results for 1080p displays due to the varying native resolutions in use.
As mentioned before, that's not the case.
And neither is this - the only exception would be games that implement their own 4k upscale.
So you're saying Sony's Pro SDK enables devs to render at any native resolution and then have the PS4 automatically upscale/downscale as appropriate? The evidence so far suggests all upscale/downscale is implemented by devs.
IIRC the functionality is not tied to the Pro.
Although I'd suggest that "any" internal-resolution is likely not the case on "any" current device, PC or console (exception being VR, but in that case we're not dealing with 2d-scaling operations, so rules are different).
I'd ask "what evidence" - to date I've mostly seen people's own head-canon (in either direction).
Eg. we have games that shipped with SS out of the box only to disable it later (and at least one that returned it again, later yet) - I'd argue this demonstrates removing SS is a developer's choice, but you could construct arguments around it to suit whatever you want it to suit really.
It's kind of ironic how now people finally see why I was pissed off about Sony's stupidity with the way Pro handles "not so Pro" games. I'm kinda jealous about the XBX tbh. If I snag one the Pro will turn into an exclusives machine and I'll get all my third party games on the X it would be nice leaving PS+ and it's shit tier network behind too lol
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Updated OP with more information on Firewatch (i.e. it has 1080p specific benefits) straight from the mouth of a Campo Santo dev in the Pro enhancements thread.
The Outlast 2 info in the OP also needs to be updated. 1080p owners aren't left empty handed.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-outlast-2-console-tech-analysis
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-outlast-2-console-tech-analysis
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Believe it or not, this is the biggest thing stopping me from buying the system. I don't play on a big 4k tv. I have one, but I prefer playing on a smaller 32 inch 1080p, especially multiplayer games.
Until this is fixed, I won't even consider purchasing the console. I know there are added benefits on a 1080p tv but downsampling seems like the biggest improvement.
Until this is fixed, I won't even consider purchasing the console. I know there are added benefits on a 1080p tv but downsampling seems like the biggest improvement.
Many of these are kind of understandable since they aren't being worked on anymore. But fucking Rocket League? One of the most popular games on the system that keeps getting updates? That is mind-boggling. If it wasn't filled with jaggies it wouldn't bother me, but it is. It is... Psyonix seems like a great developer, but they really need to get some heat for this shit.
Digital Foundry did not make any mention of this in the PS4/XBX comparison, but it's the same engine as Infinite Warfare, which DF did confirm supports super sampling in it's Pro analysis from last year, so I would say odd's are likely downsampling is supported.
Every game that has enhancement patches for the Xbox one X will do auto super sampling on a 1080P screen. This is done on the hardware level and requires no further interaction from the Devs.
Also non patched games automatically get 16XAF applied to them which makes textures look alot better and makes the LOD seem higher and any games with varying resolutions or framerate will hit the highest peak possible for an un patched game and this will happen on a 4K screen or 1080P screen automatically.
Many automatic benefits for 1080P owners on the Xbox One X
This reminds me of my PS3 either only giving me 1080i and 480p (or sometimes, 480p only) because we only had a 480p/1080i TV back then. It was one of those things I liked so much about the xbox 360 then because our TV was terrible for 480p content.
This makes Sony look super pathetic to be honest.
How long have they had now to implement a similar system?
But no, let's roll the dice and see if 1080p players get screwed.
This is interesting, so games will downsample automatically. Makes me wonder why any developer would put in the extra work to not offer SS. The AC collection is a good example. Native 4K on a 4K screen but it renders at 1080p on a 1080p screen with no visual improvements over the same game on the OG PS4.
If they let 1080p users select 4K as video resolution in system setttings wouldn't 1080p panels auto downscale/supersample the content? I imagine a solution can't be this simple but this is Sony lol.
I wonder if there is any way of fooling the PS4 to ourput in 4K on your 1080p screen.
I wonder if there is any way of fooling the PS4 to ourput in 4K on your 1080p screen.
The Last Guardian is I think the only game where I either don't want downsampling to happen, or if it does, it needs to have an in-game toggle option. 1080p on Pro is the only way to have perfect 30fps. The framerate in 1080p on the base PS4 is dogshit, while the 4K mode on Pro still has drops too (not as bad). If the latter becomes the forced default for all Pro players, there goes the only way to play this game with ideal performance.
Sony really need to include some OS option to just enforce this like Nvidia DSR, and also include 1440p output like a certain other competitior's 4K machine does..
Sony really need to include some OS option to just enforce this like Nvidia DSR, and also include 1440p output like a certain other competitior's 4K machine does..
For one, Sony does have a similar system (minus the 16xAF). Boosting of dynamic resolution, framerate, and other effects that scale with available resources happens on Pro. And downsampling is the default behavior.
It's not a dice roll, the developer has to intentionally offer a different mode for 1080p displays. In almost all cases, this means better framerates instead of downsampling. In some cases, like those listed in the OP, there are other benefits as well. If I recall correctly, there are only 3 games where there's no apparent benefit (though even for those it's possible very rare framerate problems are ironed out).
Of course, from a player perspective it'd be better if you could choose between such options, rather than being locked into one or the other based on your display. But it's definite hyperbole to say 1080p users get "screwed".
Are you sure about this?
And just "better framerate" for a system with twice the power is a very poor usage of these resources.