Why are so many superhero movie villains just bigger or souped up versions of the hero?

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

I want to start by saying I don't hate when this happens, but when it does happen I feel like its lazy. Maybe that is just me? I have been re watching a lot of the Marvel and DC movies recently and noticing this. The Incredible Hulk for example had Abomination, Venom had Riot, Iron Man had souped up version of his first suit, Ant Man had Yellowjacket, Guardians of the Galaxy Starlords dad Ego. I didn't review or can't remember them all, but it sure seems like they use this plot a lot. Feel free to discuss both Marvel and DC or beyond.

So era, am I missing any? Do you like this in movies? Is this overplayed? Am I being to critical while re watching movies?

let me know! Lock if there is a thread on this already.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

Super man has General Zod

Sephzilla · Dec 12, 2018

Because a hero defeating his dark evil self is a trope that goes back a long ass time in storytelling

Ignatz Mouse · Dec 12, 2018

Iron Man (1) set the trend. Most of the superhero movies before that point didn't lean so hard on this trope, but since then it's been dominant.

Not a big fan of it. It's the worst aspect of Black Panther, one of my favorites. Killmonger and Panther didn't have to have a man-on-man match to end the movie.

Manmademan · Dec 12, 2018

It's an easy way to draw narrative parallels with the hero that audiences can understand and relate to.

Superman isn't a hero because of his powers, but his strength of character and values. Otherwise he'd be general Zod and the audience can see how that plays out.

Same is true for Iron Monger, Ego, Yellowjacket, and Abomination.

kai3345 · Dec 12, 2018

Sephzilla said:
Because the a hero defeating his dark evil self is a trope that goes back a long ass time in storytelling

yup, and most superhero movie writers are way too lazy and take this trope too literally and make the villain an actual physical mirror version of the hero, instead of simply an ideological one

Manmademan · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
Iron Man (1) set the trend. Most of the superhero movies before that point didn't lean so hard on this trope, but since then it's been dominant.
..

Superman leaned on it so hard it did it three times in four movies from 1978 to 1987

adj_noun · Dec 12, 2018

There but for the grace of God go I.

808s & Villainy · Dec 12, 2018

sgtnosboss said:
Guardians of the Galaxy Starlords dad Ego.

Well this thread is off to a good start

Omegasquash · Dec 12, 2018

Because powers comparable to Wonderboy always get attention.

Sephzilla · Dec 12, 2018

kai3345 said:
yup, and most superhero movie writers are way too lazy and take this trope too literally and make the villain an actual physical mirror version of the hero, instead of simply an ideological one

That's part of the reason why I dig The Phantasm

This villain is a really good example of how to do an Anti-Batman type character without it being too on the nose

BocoDragon · Dec 12, 2018

Aside from all the Joseph Campbell-esque "face your shadow side" stuff..... I think there's also incentive on the screenwriters to tie the superheroic nature of the villain into the same superheroic nature of the hero, because then you have to explain one superpower origin, rather than two, which would stretch credibility in a real world setting.

It's easier and more plausible to have Iron Man face an evil Iron Man who steals his technology rather than have Iron Man face some kind of villain with a totally different origin.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

I think my biggest gripes I see it and go "come on again?" in my head and just sit there thinking... they have to have a team of writers and this was their answer? You all make a good point of it being easier for the audience to digest but dang, it just seems so lazy.

Sephzilla · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
Iron Man (1) set the trend.

Not by a long shot

NoblesseOblige · Dec 12, 2018

Thing is, superheroes generally have many villains. So like, yeah, one of them is likely going to be themselves, with more power, for the hero to overcome.

And it's not even like that's limited to superhero movies. Anime/manga is full of the very same idea.

Deleted member 198 · Dec 12, 2018

The villains are meant to be a reflection of the hero in most stories where these types exist. Other reasons are because they're narratively convenient. Archer vs Archer, magician vs magician, speed vs speed, etc.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
Well this thread is off to a good start

I assume I messed something up that I am missing?

Thornquist · Dec 12, 2018

Superhero villains are generally shit.
With one notable exception;

dark-knight_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqVGkQl19r2mk0VRcQPNz63MrWxfTen8xI_33Or9O3Fik.jpg

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

NoblesseOblige said:
Thing is, superheroes generally have many villains. So like, yeah, one of them is likely going to be themselves, with more power, for the hero to overcome.

And it's not even like that's limited to superhero movies. Anime/manga is full of the very same idea.

I think I am more ok with it off screen like in comics, but It always seems to bother me in movies.

808s & Villainy · Dec 12, 2018

sgtnosboss said:
I assume I messed something up that I am missing?

I mean he's nothing like Star Lord at all. His motivation, his abilities. It seems like a weird inclusion. He's not a "dark" version of him. He's a completely different character only related by his parentage

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
I mean he's nothing like Star Lord at all. His motivation, his abilities. It seems like a weird inclusion. He's not a "dark" version of him. He's a completely different character only related by his parentage

I suppose you're right, I was just trying to think of as many as I could.

Ignatz Mouse · Dec 12, 2018

Manmademan said:
Superman leaned on it so hard it did it three times in four movies from 1978 to 1987

You don't see a lot of it from the cape film revival started with X-men until Hulk and Iron Man. Once Iron Man hit, a 3rd act, 1-1 fight with a dark mirror became dominant.

I'm not saying IM invented it, just that it became the template for what followed.

Skiptastic · Dec 12, 2018

Nothing better to show a hero has progressed in his evolution as a person/hero than to have him defeat a "dark" version of himself that is usually simply stronger or more powerful. Instead of being able to just win by using strength or firepower (as he would against "lesser" enemies), you must use cunning to demonstrate that raw power isn't everything. That takes the hero from simply being "strong man" to being "strong smart dude who has a better understanding of himself and uses that to his advantage going forward."

Garlador · Dec 12, 2018

"We're not so different, you and I..."

Jersey_Tom · Dec 12, 2018

Guess it's just a general interest in seeing what heroes could have been like if they walked a different path. But generally speaking in many cases it can come off as a lazy way to build drama without having some sort of established rogues gallery behind them. Just having the main villain be negative version of the hero right off the bat can be a bit underwhelming.

But you do get exchanges like this:

itwasTuesday · Dec 12, 2018

David's the older model this time.

SigmasonicX · Dec 12, 2018

Having the hero face and defeat a stronger version of themselves is an easy way to show there's more to them than their powers/gimmick. The earlier point about having to explain only one power origin is good too.

modoversus · Dec 12, 2018

Manmademan said:
It's an easy way to draw narrative parallels with the hero that audiences can understand and relate to.

Superman isn't a hero because of his powers, but his strength of character and values. Otherwise he'd be general Zod and the audience can see how that plays out.

Same is true for Iron Monger, Ego, Yellowjacket, and Abomination.

Skiptastic said:
Nothing better to show a hero has progressed in his evolution as a person/hero than to have him defeat a "dark" version of himself that is usually simply stronger or more powerful. Instead of being able to just win by using strength or firepower (as he would against "lesser" enemies), you must use cunning to demonstrate that raw power isn't everything. That takes the hero from simply being "strong man" to being "strong smart dude who has a better understanding of himself and uses that to his advantage going forward."

100% agreed with these two responses.

I would also add that now we have a ton of comic book related superhero material, but when Iron Monger, Yellowjacket (it was decided to be the villian in the Ant Man movie way before Iron Man even premiered) and Abomination showed up, it was not as common on movies or TV. I'm guessing that Abomination was selected since in the previous Hulk movies and TV show there was no equal level super villian to fight in a physical way.

As we continue with more and more comic book movies, I would expect to see more of the comic book tropes to be used, and at the same time, others to be discarded.

broadwayrock · Dec 12, 2018

Manmademan · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
You don't see a lot of it from the cape film revival started with X-men until Hulk and Iron Man. Once Iron Man hit, a 3rd act, 1-1 fight with a dark mirror became dominant.

I'm not saying IM invented it, just that it became the template for what followed.

That sort of thing has long been a staple of the genre. (And the boom technically started with Blade, not Xmen...and Blade's nemesis is predictably not far from the "dark mirror" concept).

It's only noticeable because post Blade/Xmen there are dramatically more comic book films than prior.

Pre-Boom it was just Warner using the DC properties and a handful of one offs like Spawn or The Phantom.

Post Boom Fox, Sony, Marvel, and New Line all jumped in with movies based on Marvel IP.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

broadwayrock said:

Oh no, it's me! But evil!

Rackham · Dec 12, 2018

The Flash did this in the first two seasons and both villains were great.

itwasTuesday · Dec 12, 2018

Pooh · Dec 12, 2018

Because the hero has to learn that power for the sake of power is bad and that it's HOW you use the power that is important
This matchup establishes the whole "with great power comes great responsibility"

Deleted member 2809 · Dec 12, 2018

Because it's easy to do
It can be good, sometimes.

PSqueak · Dec 12, 2018

Easiest way to make the villian be a credible threat to the hero.

Doggg · Dec 12, 2018

Daredevil should have a foe who's deaf, blind, and crippled.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

modoversus said:
100% agreed with these two responses.

I would also add that now we have a ton of comic book related superhero material, but when Iron Monger, Yellowjacket (it was decided to be the villian in the Ant Man movie way before Iron Man even premiered) and Abomination showed up, it was not as common on movies or TV. I'm guessing that Abomination was selected since in the previous Hulk movies and TV show there was no equal level super villian to fight in a physical way.

As we continue with more and more comic book movies, I would expect to see more of the comic book tropes to be used, and at the same time, others to be discarded.

What other big ones do you think will start showing up? I don't read a ton of comics, some, but not a ton. So I am not really familiar with all the tropes

Hollywood Duo · Dec 12, 2018

It's one of my biggest complaints about MCU movies. Incredibly overused trope but that is the source material after all.

Ignatz Mouse · Dec 12, 2018

Manmademan said:
That sort of thing has long been a staple of the genre. (And the boom technically started with Blade, not Xmen...and Blade's nemesis is predictably not far from the "dark mirror" concept).

It's only noticeable because post Blade/Xmen there are dramatically more comic book films than prior.

Pre-Boom it was just Warner using the DC properties and a handful of one offs like Spawn or The Phantom.

Post Boom Fox, Sony, Marvel, and New Line all jumped in with movies based on Marvel IP.

I'm not trying to say it as an absolute. Of course it existed before. But IM is the template of a *lot* of what follows, and that includes leaning on that trope more than the genre had previously-- particularly a 3rd act showdown with said mirror in 1-1 combat. The Spider-Man, X-Men, and Nolan Batman films didn't hew to that particular formula. The closest you get is in X2 when Wolverine fights Lady Deathstrike, but that's a sideline to the main tension of Striker using Prof X.

You're right, Blade did use that as well, I don't tend to remember Blade in these conversations since it's less superhero and more vampire movie to me.

Z-Beat · Dec 12, 2018

Sephzilla said:
That's part of the reason why I dig The Phantasm

This villain is a really good example of how to do an Anti-Batman type character without it being too on the nose

A Batman with no restraint pretty much

Zaied · Dec 12, 2018

It's a product of many comic book villains being just evil counterparts of the hero because it's easier to write convincing conflicts when the main hero and villain have the same powerset. This is what makes Lex Luthor such a great adversary to me. He's ultimately a normal guy in a business suit without any realistic means to beat Superman which allows for compelling stories that explores other methods that an egomaniac like Lex uses to challenge Superman.

andymcc · Dec 12, 2018

who is thanos a souped up version of? vulture from spider-man homecoming?

Froyo Love · Dec 12, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
I mean he's nothing like Star Lord at all. His motivation, his abilities. It seems like a weird inclusion. He's not a "dark" version of him. He's a completely different character only related by his parentage

Ego's kind of a representation of a vapid narcissism that Peter has in him, but it's not anywhere as close a mirroring as something like Tony Stark to Obadiah Stane.

SageShinigami · Dec 12, 2018

A lot of villains are twisted mirror versions of the hero....

Zaied said:
It's a product of many comic book villains being just evil counterparts of the hero because it's easier to write convincing conflicts when the main hero and villain have the same powerset. This is what makes Lex Luthor such a great adversary to me. He's ultimately a normal guy in a business suit without any realistic means to beat Superman which allows for compelling stories that explores other methods that an egomaniac like Lex uses to challenge Superman.

...Including Lex Luthor. He's just Superman if he were all brains instead of brawn. (Though Superman's not stupid, so this isn't a 1:1 thing.)

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
I'm not trying to say it as an absolute. Of course it existed before. But IM is the template of a *lot* of what follows, and that includes leaning on that trope more than the genre had previously-- particularly a 3rd act showdown with said mirror in 1-1 combat. The Spider-Man, X-Men, and Nolan Batman films didn't hew to that particular formula. The closest you get is in X2 when Wolverine fights Lady Deathstrike, but that's a sideline to the main tension of Striker using Prof X.

You're right, Blade did use that as well, I don't tend to remember Blade in these conversations since it's less superhero and more vampire movie to me.

Oh crap that reminds me that there was another with Sabertooth and Wolverine. Thanks!

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

Froyo Love said:
Ego's kind of a representation of a vapid narcissism that Peter has in him, but it's not anywhere as close a mirroring as something like Tony Stark to Obadiah Stane.

Yeah that was kind of where I was thinking, and how he was half celestial facing a full celestial.

Ignatz Mouse · Dec 12, 2018

sgtnosboss said:
Oh crap that reminds me that there was another with Sabertooth and Wolverine. Thanks!

Just a sideline thing in X1, but a bigger deal in X-Men Origins: Wolverine-- which came out post IM. In X1 there's nothing to really tell you he's a Wolverine analogue, unlike Lady Deathstrike who has the Adamantium claws and is specifically framed as the next-generation Logan.

sgtnosboss · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
Just a sideline thing in X1, but a bigger deal in X-Men Origins: Wolverine-- which came out post IM. In X1 there's nothing to really tell you he's a Wolverine analogue, unlike Lady Deathstrike who has the Adamantium claws and is specifically framed as the next-generation Logan.

I honestly had to google to remember what Lady Deathstrike looked like, good point

Manmademan · Dec 12, 2018

Ignatz Mouse said:
I'm not trying to say it as an absolute. Of course it existed before. But IM is the template of a *lot* of what follows, and that includes leaning on that trope more than the genre had previously-- particularly a 3rd act showdown with said mirror in 1-1 combat. The Spider-Man, X-Men, and Nolan Batman films didn't hew to that particular formula. The closest you get is in X2 when Wolverine fights Lady Deathstrike, but that's a sideline to the main tension of Striker using Prof X.

You're right, Blade did use that as well, I don't tend to remember Blade in these conversations since it's less superhero and more vampire movie to me.

Not to be nitpicky, but Ra's Al Ghul is DEFINITELY a "dark mirror" antagonist of Batman for begins, and Bane is to a lesser extent in Rises.

Venom being "dark spiderman" in Spidey 3 is also super obvious.

Why are so many superhero movie villains just bigger or souped up versions of the hero?

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