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Why can't Link be enby/genderqueer if his androgyny is why we have no gender option?
- Thread starter P-Tux7
- Start date
In Zelda it should not be important since they are new characters every game. I think most characters should stay the same gender if they are part of a continued story though.
I find these kind of questions disingenuous in a thread speaking about how strongly they want to relate to a character of their gender/sexuality.
While I get where you're coming from in the Macro (There are plenty of games that exist with those preferences/gender norms and they're different incarnations each game) to ask someone of another gender or background why that sexuality or anything means anything to them seems (to me) hypocritical to the conversation. There are two conversations happening there. Representation versus existing iconography.
Someone can for the same reasons for other sexualities love that a character is straight and/or pair them with Zelda the same way people are allowed to pair Link with the FishyPrinceSidon. People project themselves onto characters often, and asking why it's a problem if it changes to not be their preference to be someone else's is a weird thing to ask imo.
Its not weird at all and you are being disingenuous. The question is why should thsoe character stay that way presumably for ever in games forever. Why does that matter, why can't they be different. Why can't different people project themselves on different versions of the characters in different games.
I know the question I asked.
You don't.
You are asking a question you have an answer to already.
That's the problem with this debate as it comes off as being rude when you're asking a question you already know the answer to because this thread exists. "Why do people need X type of character"?
The simple answer is representation. But when you go asking why other people need a character to be a certain way you become oblivious as to why they might want that preference or background on the existing character still because it doesn't fit what you desire.
The answer is more representation in general at the Macro level, but the question you're asking "Why does it matter that Link is straight or a dude(not that we have a lot to go off of on Link's character in general if you ignore like fanart)" is a bad question.
"Why can't people project themselves on different versions of the characters in different games" is something that can easily be said to people asking for a different type of character which is why that statement itself is flawed.
I'm all for more representation and lots of it, but asking why people wouldn't want a character changed to fit someone else's preferences is still a bad question with an answer you already have.
These topics get really combative really quick (and I understand the history of problems surrounding the topic) but if it matters to someone if a character is gay why can it then not matter if a character is straight?
Either that or please explain to me how I'm not understanding instead of simply stating that I just don't understand. If you know the question you asked and I don't, and my further elaboration is still off course, I'm more than happy to have it explained to me so that I avoid seeming insensitive.
This is one of those questions where the answers are limited purely by one's imagination.
In terms of lore, there is so much space to introduce a Link who doesn't identify as a man - whether that be a genderqueer Link, a woman Link, or whatever else. In Twilight Princess, we saw the Link of that era interact with the Link from Ocarina of Time, so we know this isn't a singular character; across the various games, Link has had varying characteristics, so we're very much used to seeing the character manifest somewhat differently each time.
"But Link has always been a man!" This is where imagination comes in: the moment a non-male identifying Link is introduced, you'd only have to adjust your perspective very, very slightly for it to make an incredible amount of sense. The one argument otherwise is a pure status quo-based argument; in terms of lore, in terms of what Link's character represents, the transition to a more expansive view of Link's possible gender would be seamless.
In terms of lore, there is so much space to introduce a Link who doesn't identify as a man - whether that be a genderqueer Link, a woman Link, or whatever else. In Twilight Princess, we saw the Link of that era interact with the Link from Ocarina of Time, so we know this isn't a singular character; across the various games, Link has had varying characteristics, so we're very much used to seeing the character manifest somewhat differently each time.
"But Link has always been a man!" This is where imagination comes in: the moment a non-male identifying Link is introduced, you'd only have to adjust your perspective very, very slightly for it to make an incredible amount of sense. The one argument otherwise is a pure status quo-based argument; in terms of lore, in terms of what Link's character represents, the transition to a more expansive view of Link's possible gender would be seamless.
In order I don't. Its why I asked it, I am interested if he they have some reason they are willing to state. That explains their view point, because of currently I don't understand their view point, seems selfish.
I'm not asking why a character needs to be that way, I am asking that why in story about reincarnation do they need to be that way infinitely. Why cant other people have other versions of the character they can identify with. I proposed a CaC , but that's just me.
You aren't gonna get any sympathy from me on that. I'm black I had to go through all media with most of my heroes not looking like me. It is not the same asking that to a black person as opposed to a character who looks like the white male standard. Its not the same, context of all history makes it not the same. That's it.
Maybe the point is to get them to think about why they actually think that way.
Because strait is the norm, and is in most media and having more representation in media would be cool. So having more types of sexual preferences and genders in media would be cool , and not the norm. When you are the privileged , equality feels like oppression and you are demonstrating it with your entire argument. If you ask that about heteronormative stuff, it is with the itent to exclude the from media. There is so much heteronormative content that to ask for more representation from the other side is not a risk of it not being represented in media.
Your argument comes off diengenious as fuck FYI and I don't believe you are being honest
In the grand scheme of the Zelda games I don't think Link's sexual orientation has ever been spelled out, nor does it really matter. If when you play a Zelda game you prefer Link to be enby/genderqueer then that's what Link shall be. That's one of the best parts of Zelda, a lot of the story is there to be filled in by the player.
Given the other posts in this thread I'm going to assume that text bias and text based format in general is going to lead to us talking around each other instead of to each other.
The assumption I'm not being honest simply because of what I can assume is just an accusation could also result in me getting banned if I for example phrase something wrong and/or poorly and get reported or something.
Me having a discussion about a specific point in the micro does not effect that I feel more representation in the macro is good. I just felt like PART of your thinking was flawed. However I can see now that we disagree on fundamentally every level so I don't see that me bothering you further with my long winded responses will yield further understanding. Apologies for taking your time.
I want to be clear here, if you are strait and i dentify with the plethora of strait characters. Cool. However the suggestion that characters need to be strait, infinitely in all interpretations is what i'm questioning.
So when you respond " what's wrong with someone identifying with a strait character " it makes it seem like you being mad disingenuous , because you know what the problem is. No one said that was a problem.
Not attacking you here, but gender identity and sexual orientation are different things entirely. Gender identity is who you are and what you identify as, whereas sexual orientation is who you're attracted to.
But yes, Link is a cypher and you can project traits onto him if that's what you want to do.
Yep, exactly. Japan (as a country) has a very long way to go.
Heck, I grew up partially in Mexico and that side of my Facebook feed also has a lot of growing up to do when it comes to gender.
its still an elve. An elves are in fantasy almost everytime not really masculine.
This is an interesting question. Does it not come down to the story the writer wants to tell.
There are specific characters and it's written the way the created wants with relationships the writer has created.
It would be a different game for the for a character to be a blank canvas e.g. fallout4 where there is a character builder.
I feel like they are two different ways of story telling. 1) characters are specific and 2) blan canvas character builder.
Not all stories should give player options. Some stories are that way because there written that way and suits the story/game/characters.
There are specific characters and it's written the way the created wants with relationships the writer has created.
It would be a different game for the for a character to be a blank canvas e.g. fallout4 where there is a character builder.
I feel like they are two different ways of story telling. 1) characters are specific and 2) blan canvas character builder.
Not all stories should give player options. Some stories are that way because there written that way and suits the story/game/characters.
Because his established character, according to the series' producer, is that of an androgynous male who doesn't fit the stereotypical portrayal of male protagonists in AAA games, which is important for representation by itself. Also, Link is deliberately designed in a way that most types of players can relate to him but he's not meant to be a self-insert.
Your "Link coming out as non-binary in a future game" idea comes off as very tone-deaf. Zelda isn't a series where the protagonist embarks on a journey of self-discovery and/or self-affirmation, or where Link's perception of himself plays a part in the narrative besides his sense of duty as the legendary Hero - nor does it need to be. It would make a lot more sense to ask for a plotline like that in something like Xenoblade.
Your "Link coming out as non-binary in a future game" idea comes off as very tone-deaf. Zelda isn't a series where the protagonist embarks on a journey of self-discovery and/or self-affirmation, or where Link's perception of himself plays a part in the narrative besides his sense of duty as the legendary Hero - nor does it need to be. It would make a lot more sense to ask for a plotline like that in something like Xenoblade.
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In Spanish at least, the thing is that all pronouns are gendered. There's no specific gender-neutral equivalent of "them". It translates as "Ellos" (male) or "Ellas"(female). However, when referring to a group of people of multiple genders, it defaults to male ("Ellos"), which would be the equivalent of referring to a non-binary person.
This is simply how the language works. The male pronoun also works as neutral, and that's how a potential non-binary Link would be referred to in a Spanish localization.
The REAL problem here is, that a lot of people will look at the male pronouns in the Spanish language and go "But look! In this version, Link is still male!"
This is really insightful and interesting, thanks for taking the time to write it. Definitely with you on the clarification and revised issue, which is still definitely the case but less contrasting than I'd originally assumed.
Yeah, sorry, was responding at work and couldn't think of the correct term so rolled with sexual orientation.
LInk does the hero thing because he's the chosen one, anything else besides that is just added on and different depening on the game. And you pretending its more than that is delusional ... at best.. Link himself is going on any journey because link isn't a character he's vessel for you to do the thing. He's the LINK to you, its in his fucking name. So why not have that vessel be different from time to time.
Like ya'll gonna go to the graves pretending this blond nothing ass doll is a character, he's not.
I don't see why he can't be except for Nintendo. It would be cool too because then everyone could identify more with the character.
What's delusional to me is suggesting a plotline where Link comes out as non-binary in a fucking Zelda game.
Also, Link's name also has nothing to do with being a link to the player - it comes from a scrapped, more sci-fi concept for the original Zelda where the protagonist acted as a link between the past and future. He may not have as much of a personality as say, Mario, but he's still an established character that isn't just a blank slate.
I mean, that's about as succinctly as I think it'll be put
Honestly I don't understand why Nintendo doesn't just create both a Female Link and Prince Zelda variant and let the player mix and match as they please.
Male Link x Princess Zelda
Female Link x Prince Zelda
Male Link x Prince Zelda
Female Link x Princess Zelda
Everyone wins.
Male Link x Princess Zelda
Female Link x Prince Zelda
Male Link x Prince Zelda
Female Link x Princess Zelda
Everyone wins.
It's not that simple. Here's a quote from a more recent interview;
"CODY: In the original Legend of Zelda, Link is named Link because he is a link to the player. However, in more recent Zelda games, Link has become more of a character in his own right. In The Wind Waker, his facial expressions were a large part of the game, and it was emotional to see him wave goodbye to his family on Outset Island. And in Skyward Sword, Link even has a relationship with Zelda. So do you feel that Link is becoming less of a link to the player and more of a character in his own right?
AONUMA: It's actually very tricky. I still want the player to feel as though they are Link; they are in Link's shoes doing all these actions. But, at the same time, he also needs to be a character in a game in a space. So what we've tried to do with him is make him a character that the player wants to be. Someone who's shoes you want to be in or that you want to act on behalf of. But it should also feel like it's the player. So we tried to make him appealing somehow; make him cute, or handsome, or cool. Something that draws the player in. Because otherwise, if he's just this blank slate, then there's no draw; there's nothing that makes you want to be put in his shoes and take on these challenges. So it's a balance, and it's certainly something that we struggle with and something that we'll probably continue to struggle with when making Zelda games."
So we've found 3 instances where the meaning behind his name and the character he is shifts around when they feel they need or want to. BotW Link was very expressionless in cutscenes and most of his actual expressions and character come from you making him interact with the world, whether it being cooking, climbing, running, jumping, fighting, opening a chest, or taking a picture.
Lmao, you aren't looking good in this debate.
Even the lore supports the idea of Link being different with each iteration.
The way I see it is that Link is an avatar but is not a custom avatar. It feels like people have latched on to the reincarnation thing as a loophole to try get the character to be something different. It just seems like after 30 years, link kind of is a character, just a very basic one.
As far as Link's sexuality, well technically link could be almost anything as the character doesnt have sex in the games and also doesnt realy pursue romantic interest despite sometimes being the object of romantic pursuit.
In many ways link already can be what you want link to be
As far as Link's sexuality, well technically link could be almost anything as the character doesnt have sex in the games and also doesnt realy pursue romantic interest despite sometimes being the object of romantic pursuit.
In many ways link already can be what you want link to be
You know exactly what I meant. Despite the lore giving the dev team freedom to experiment with truly different characterizations for Link, the entire Zelda series has settled into the idea of all Links sharing the same basic appearance and character traits (white male, blonde-ish hair, elf ears, mostly silent, etc), despite not being exactly the same character in-universe. This may change in the future, but as of right now he's pretty much a set, iconic "avatar-but-not-really" character.
Majora's mask kind of makes the point that it doesn't matter whatever the form is outside. Defending this shit just looks bad, because there really isn't any possible argument rather than japanese devs having grips with gender theory, lgbtq people, or other progressive topics.
But well, if you want to keep arguing for the purity of this bland af avatar that you claim has a sacred set of characteristics (when the games have shown you that it's not even the case) well, you do you.
Zelda 2 is pretty explicit about his sexual orientation. Skyward Sword too, since he and Zelda started the Hyrule Royal Line in there. The others are not as explicit but at least there's implications about it.
Not to mention supplemental materials such as mangas where they're pretty explicit about it, like for Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, Minish Cap, etc etc.
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They can make it like Frisk and Kris in Undertale/Deltarune, though that's more keeping them gender ambiguous that them being officially NB
(They're not given an explicit gender and are referred to as "they/them" allowing the player to imprint whatever they want onto them)
Gordon doesn't have a personality--he really is just a pair of floating hands lol, but Link in his various forms is really a character on his own. Skyward Sword, Breath of the Wild, heck even Twilight Princess and Wind Waker---Link is not just an "empty vessel" or a "corpse"---he's an actual character with actual personality.
I just don't understand how people who play those games can't see that.
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You're essentially saying representation needs to be justified, that representation should only exist when it's "thoughtful" or the focal point of a story. That's bullshit and a double standard. Queer characters and queer life need to just exist the way everyone else does. The necessity of works about queer culture does not mean that a work where queer characters exist needs to be about queer culture.
There is a tendency for people to treat creators as omniscient beings with a flawless sense of judgement by championing "what the artist intended." They are people with their own experiences, perspectives, and biases like you and me. Their decisions can be informed by ignorance. They have not necessarily weighed each and every possible option against one another nor have they necessarily done so with the best intentions. And that's not even getting into interference from producers. "It is that way because that is how they wanted it to be" is circular reasoning. Imagine applying that reasoning to any other part of the game.
All in all, Link being an androgynous male lead is valuable so I feel a little torn.
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I honestly think Link would need to be more of a character before this sort of subject could be approached with any sort of nuance. Right now, he's barely a character and I'm not sure how you could even bring this up in a story, especially one with a silent protagonist who is barely even referred to by any pronouns as is.
If there was a way it would work, however, I would totally love to see it!
If there was a way it would work, however, I would totally love to see it!
Tbh the most confusing thing to me in this thread is that people keep acting as if a nonbinary character *has* to have an arc about why they're nb, or about them coming out. As if the only thing a nb character could add is being genderqueer.
And while there should be more media that well portrays that, a character could also just be nonbinary. There's no explanation or coming out scene needed.
And while there should be more media that well portrays that, a character could also just be nonbinary. There's no explanation or coming out scene needed.
Nah man Zelda wouldn't be the same without Link or Zelda herself.
Say "n-b", then people started writing it that way. Similar to Standard Oil breaking up and Standard Oil of New Jersey taking "Standard Oil", reading it as "SO" and making the brand "Esso". It's uncommon but not necessarily confusing.
Now I'm curious to know how this is handled in the German and Spanish versions of Undertale. People have raised in those languages there's no gender-neutral equivalent (or at least the one that's used is a binary word that's applied to be neutral). Which I can get as an issue with execution but you've raised an example that's seems to run the they/them route so keen to see how there. I think having a subtle nod affirming it or using pronouns is just as valid as having a deep backstory (which would be nice to have in other games too).
👏👏👏
well it was the OP that brought it up...
That's undoable in many languages, especially those that are heavy gendered, like the Romance languages.
Implying it can be solved just by changing the pronouns to they/them is a very Anglo-centric approach.
That post led to a subsequent multi-post discussion about languages, which even bled onto this page with the querying about how Undertale is handled in German or Spanish.
Edit: Just re-downloaded it after changing my Switch to Spanish and seems it's only available in English or Japanese. Which is certainly one way to circumvent it though not the best considering you're omitting a load of people's native language.
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Yes, I've just read it. Seems like the point involving this particular issue was well explained.
Just like in German, I daresay most Romance languages would have this issue too. Take for example Spanish (common example, with a market of 500M speakers), people are either "él" (he) or "ella" (she), there aren't other alternatives. Based on my experience, non-binary and genderqueer people just pick one or use both indistinctly. The nuance difficult to reflect in a game, particularly in one where the protagonist is silent.
User warned: threadwhining
I love Era, as I did the old place, for the breaking news and the solid discussions around it as well as the various analyses of games and consoles. The one thing that not so much ruins it, more dilutes the experience, are threads like this that are almost made to cause controversy.
Not intending to shit on anyone, I just like my gaming discussion.
Not intending to shit on anyone, I just like my gaming discussion.