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Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
I feel like this is a dissonance that needs to be addressed. It's a dissonance not just among fanboys, but actual well meaning members of the gaming community. Players, industry analysts, pundits, et al, have at various points expressed wariness towards the onset of services such as Game Pass, and the incredible value that they provide. As recently as last week, we had NPD's Mat Piscatella warn against the potential devaluation of games, and it is also a concern that has been raised against Game Pass multiple times by posters on this very forum.

I can absolutely get the argument, for what it's worth, of the psychological impacts of devaluation of video games as an entertainment medium, because we have seen it happen before with mobile games (which was something that the late Nintendo President Satoru Iwata warned against, but ended up being ignored on). But here's the thing: why is this argument only selectively being applied towards video game subscription services?

As an example, let us return to Microsoft's plan to kill used game sales back in 2013. This plan was rightly mauled by critics, industry pundits, and players, and is probably single handedly responsible for Microsoft's trials and tribulations this generation. To be extremely clear, I am not defending that intended plan to kill used game sales, because it was taking away choice and value from me as a customer, and I do not support that - and thankfully, at that time, neither did the rest of the industry, and we all raised our voices against it.

But... doesn't the devaluation argument apply to used games too? Because, surely, if I can get a used game three weeks after launch for half the price, the value of the game has been effectively eroded for me. Why, after all, would I want to spend $60 on a game new when I can just get it in a few days/weeks at a far lower price?

But the devaluation argument isn't applied there (or isn't viewed as an important enough extenuation). Which, I agree, used game sales give us value and choice as a customer, so fuck the devaluation argument. But that is also the case for subscription services. Services like Game Pass give me choice and value. Why is the devaluation argument mysteriously being applied to services like it, but not towards used games?

Subscription services have not devalued content in any other industry. People don't value movies or TV less because of Netflix, or music less because of Spotify. To me, the devaluation argument in this instance as applied by people on ResetEra appears to be a false strawman erected specifically to argue on lines drawn along brand loyalties, rather than having any actual merit in and of itself - because if subscription services like Game Pass are bad because of devaluation of content, then we should all be on board with banning used game sales too. Those also devalue content.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,119
Because Publishers don't set the price of used games, meaning they aren't placing a lower value on them out of the gate.

Because it's your right to sell your own property.

And because selling games used doesn't necessarily devalue them. See Nintendo's used games.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,528
Spain
Because we already know the effects of used games in the market but not subscription services. It is something unknown.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,190
I'm pretty sure people absolutely value music less because of Spotify, or at least what they're willing to pay for it.

Also, you aren't getting a used game three weeks after launch for half the price unless you're not using one of the major used retailers, so I'm not sure a lot of people are shifting buying habits to buy used. Now shifting buying habits because everything goes on sale new after a few weeks, sure, but that's on them.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,813
Brazil
Gamepass is digital and widespread, sometimes for $1/month.

Used games are physical and involves the effort to actually do business with unknown people without being sure of the product condition.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Music and tv shows have massively lost individual sales and been devalued with subscriptions and people don't care. They don't really care about devs.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
Because Publishers don't set the price of used games, meaning they aren't placing a lower value on them out of the gate.

Because it's your right to sell your own property.

And because selling games used doesn't necessarily devalue them. See Nintendo's used games.

Also money obtained from used game sales have been proven to be used on new games.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Subscription services have not devalued content in any other industry. People don't value movies or TV less because of Netflix, or music less because of Spotify. To me, the devaluation argument in this instance as applied by people on ResetEra appears to be a false strawman erected specifically to argue on lines drawn along brand loyalties, rather than having any actual merit in and of itself - because if subscription services like Game Pass are bad because of devaluation of content, then we should all be on board with banning used game sales too. Those also devalue content.
I disagree with you, People absolutely value tv, movies and music less because of streaming services. yes there are still extremely successful examples of all of those but streaming services have affected the value of all of those products mostly negatively, it doesn't mean they are bad but I don't think you are really using good examples to say they haven't.

Gamepass and other subscription services have the potential to negatively impact the value of games well used game sales put the money back to people who normally use it for other games. There's a big difference.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
Because we already know the effects of used games in the market but not subscription services. It is something unknown.
We know the effects of subscription services, Netflix and Spotify have been around for 10+ years.

What? They absolutely have, especially music.
How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.
There is no devaluation. The people who still value music enough to pay for it pay for it. Those who find streaming services are enough would never have consumed music at the scale they do in the absence of those streaming services. The subscription services expanded the market.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
by devaluing the prices of games that the publishers sell to us directly, it would push the developers to add other means of profitability within the games in the form of MTX, and those who do not will have to settle for a smaller budget.
 

Deleted member 2279

User-requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
215
For the record, I think GP is great. But for a few bucks a month I can get a game Day 1, while used games sell for close to new MSRP for some time after launch.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
The devaluation comes with the lower price for games at launch and less revenue for single games due to the subscription service.
You as a publisher/dev still needs to make money to keep your business running. And if you can't make that money with selling a
SKU, you need other ways of income.
And have you seen the amount of money Netflix is looding each year?
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,944
There's a fixed supply of used games, while there's an infinite supply of downloadable games, which creates a price floor that prevents the price from dropping too much. Used games also are distinctly less desirable than new games because of the potential of damage to the disc or case, which does not exist with downloadable titles which are always identical. The price of used games is set by the market, no one can control what the value of a used title is, while with a subscription service the price is set by the platform holder, who has unilateral power to set that price and set the price that the developers will be paid for their work.

And if you really think that services like Spotify and Netflix haven't devalued their respective industries and consolidated control of the industries towards major corporations, you haven't been paying attention.
 

Min

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,073
Games are already devalued enormously. 🤷‍♂️ Maybe you have to wait a few months or a year, but as soon as a game releases it basically depreciates in value steadily, either through HumbleBumble opportunities, Steam Sales, or just a physical release not trending anymore after a few weeks. Games rarely retain value unless they're a collector's item and even collector items will be phased out if there is an HD re-release that give wider access for less money.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
We know the effects of subscription services, Netflix and Spotify have been around for 10+ years.


How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.
There is no devaluation. The people who still value music enough to pay for it pay for it. Those who find streaming services are enough would never have consumed music at the scale they do in the absence of those streaming services. The subscription services expanded the market.
I think you haven't been paying attention if anything.
 

Lastdancer

Member
Nov 1, 2017
645
I'm pretty sure I remember several instances of people bemoaning the fact that Netflix just keeps dumping movies and shows onto its service with little to no fanfare, and that this practice was devaluing the content.

Honestly can we have rental stores back? I miss rentals. I do not trust redbox machines at all for rentals...
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
I disagree with you, People absolutely value tv, movies and music less because of streaming services. yes there are still extremely successful examples of all of those but streaming services have affected the value of all of those products mostly negatively, it doesn't mean they are bad but I don't think you are really using good examples to say they haven't.

Gamepass and other subscription services have the potential to negatively impact the value of games well used game sales put the money back to people who normally use it for other games. There's a big difference.
by devaluing the prices of games that the publishers sell to us directly, it would push the developers to add other means of profitability within the games in the form of MTX, and those who do not will have to settle for a smaller budget.
As a reminder, the reasoning for DLCs and online passes last generation (which were at the time viewed as extremely controversial and anti-consumer moves) was to counter used game sales and the subsequent loss of revenues. If subscription services are potentially to blame for exploitative monetization practices, used game sales absolutely are too.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
Used games in my country usually are... 20% or 30% cheaper. Nintendo prices are the same.

Not that I care about "devalution", I just want big single player games to keep being viable.
 

Titanpaul

Member
Jan 2, 2019
5,008
Several indie developers have states Game pass has provided them an audience that they wouldn't have seen at normal distribution. People can try games out.

🤷‍♂️
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,918
How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.
There is no devaluation. The people who still value music enough to pay for it pay for it. Those who find streaming services are enough would never have consumed music at the scale they do in the absence of those streaming services. The subscription services expanded the market.

There is no equivalent to going to a concert or going to a movie theater for games though, once you get the content through your sub, that's it. That's the end of the engagement - short of microtransactions.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,784
gamers want to buy games for cheap but they don't like subscription services where they can't keep the games so they turn it into a situation where one thing is bad and the other thing is good.
 

ShutterMunster

Art Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
Because Publishers don't set the price of used games, meaning they aren't placing a lower value on them out of the gate.

Because it's your right to sell your own property.

And because selling games used doesn't necessarily devalue them. See Nintendo's used games.

And /endthread

If developers let publishers dictate streaming payouts, much like artists let the RIAA & labels dictate streaming era music success, things are about to get real grim.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Money from used game sales finance further full price purchasing, so one could argue that they help maintain new-game unit value. There isn't the same generation of new, per unit value in sub services. Eventually if subs drive volumes - audiences - to much higher levels they might generate more value on aggregate however. But until then, and on a unit basis, it's not really apples to apples.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
As a reminder, the reasoning for DLCs and online passes last generation (which were at the time viewed as extremely controversial and anti-consumer moves) was to counter used game sales and the subsequent loss of revenues. If subscription services are potentially to blame for exploitative monetization practices, used game sales absolutely are too.
No the reason they were introduced was because they wanted more money, it wasn't about lack of revenue it was keeping the user invested and playing for a long period of time. Things like online passes were to combat used games but they were a relic and were rightfully scrapped. Used game sales are a bonus, streaming services are not a bad thing but they definitely devalue the industry.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
Money from used game sales finance further full price purchasing, so one could argue that they help maintain new-game unit value. There isn't the same generation of new, per unit value in sub services. Eventually if subs drive volumes - audiences - to much higher levels they might generate more value on aggregate however. But until then, and on a unit basis, it's not really apples to apples.
This is an interesting counterpoint, actually. The existence of lower priced USED games reinforces the notion that NEW games should still cost however much they cost, that's what you are saying?
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,227
And /endthread

If developers let publishers dictate streaming payouts, much like artists let the RIAA & labels dictate streaming era music success, things are about to get real grim.

That's pretty much exactly where at least MS is heading, since they are pushing their base extremely hard to Game Pass where they set the terms for dev payouts. Xbox users are going to be much less exposed to games that arent on GP, which will make it even harder for smaller games outside of the service to break through
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
I think Nintendo is pushing digital with the vouchers for a reason. You can't sell digital games, that are majority on PC/PS/Xbox.
 

Agamon

Member
Aug 1, 2019
1,781
"Devalue" ugh. I play games for the enjoyment I receive from them, not from some arbitrary monetary value they may or may not have. Thanks, capitalism.
 

Deleted member 19702

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,722
I can absolutely get the argument, for what it's worth, of the psychological impacts of devaluation of video games as an entertainment medium, because we have seen it happen before with mobile games (which was something that the late Nintendo President Satoru Iwata warned against, but ended up being ignored on). But here's the thing: why is this argument only selectively being applied towards video game subscription services?

Satoru Iwata only said this to justify his laissez faire business approach by maximizing profits at reduced low costs and feared the advent of apps would force him to change his strategy. He wasn't really worried about gaming devaluation, at all. His interest was strictly financial.
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
I bought the Last of Us Remastered brand new digitally for $5. Why isn't anyone talking about these companies devaluing their own games by putting them on sale? Oh, right, because there are a million different interpretations of "value". If you look at all video games and just say "oh, those things are worth $60", and that's it, it displays a very limited understanding of how valuation works and how companies and consumers value products and services.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
Satoru Iwata only said this to justify his laissez faire business approach by maximizing profits at reduced low costs and feared the advent of apps would force him to change his strategy. He wasn't really worried about gaming devaluation, at all. His interest was strictly financial.
How does what his motive may or may not have been have any bearing on the actual argument made, which history bore out as demonstrably true?
 

ManNR

Member
Feb 13, 2019
2,964
We know the effects of subscription services, Netflix and Spotify have been around for 10+ years.


How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.
There is no devaluation. The people who still value music enough to pay for it pay for it. Those who find streaming services are enough would never have consumed music at the scale they do in the absence of those streaming services. The subscription services expanded the market.

Musicians have had to go hard into constant touring to make up for the money lost from physical sales after the rise of digital. It definitely shifted the value of music.

To your larger point: Used game sales do little to devalue games because many are still sold for close-to-retail (Gamestop & Game XChange come to mind). This is a drastically different model than streaming.

Personally, my big issue with game devaluation comes from digital sales that offer extreme price drops & come soon after release. That strategy devalues games faster than anything simply because it shows us that publishers don't trust their games to maintain sales. One reason why I respect Nintendo for maintaining value in their games even though it hurts my wallet.
 

Deleted member 19702

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,722
How does what his motive may or may not have been have any bearing on the actual argument made, which history bore out as demonstrably true?

Not at all, it was just a side note.

Anyway, I don't think streaming will devaluate anything. It might concentrate power on the hands of some companies, but won't force publishers to drop price as you suggest.
 
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Shizuka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,116
How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.

How do you suggest devs make "extra" money? While streaming music became a sort of advertisement for the artist to sell their goods (i.e. concert tickets, merch), what would game developers do? Release even more DLC, lootboxes?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
I bought the Last of Us Remastered brand new digitally for $5. Why isn't anyone talking about these companies devaluing their own games by putting them on sale? Oh, right, because there are a million different interpretations of "value". If you look at all video games and just say "oh, those things are worth $60", and that's it, it displays a very limited understanding of how valuation works and how companies and consumers value products and services.

I think people talk about day 1 games for $5 or on a service, not years later.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,409
I disagree with a lot of your assumptions in the OP. I don't know how you can say Music and especially TV shows haven't been devalued with things like Spotify and Netflix.
 

Cactuar

Banned
Nov 30, 2018
5,878
We know the effects of subscription services, Netflix and Spotify have been around for 10+ years.


How? People still go to concerts and pay money for those. Vinyl sales experience record highs every year.
There is no devaluation. The people who still value music enough to pay for it pay for it. Those who find streaming services are enough would never have consumed music at the scale they do in the absence of those streaming services. The subscription services expanded the market.

Are you making the claim that subscription services haven't devalued music? You are in a sad, sad state of denial.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,339
Subscriptions are positioned as revaluing games on phones where free to play has brought their value to zero. The same thing that happened to the music industry is happening to games and movies at different speeds, and subscriptions are a way to combat that to an extent.
 

phant0m

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,361
What? They absolutely have, especially music.

Yup, but music went this way to try and recover the revenue lost from piracy. It's much, much more difficult to pirate games than it is music. It took them awhile to figure out the days of getting $15 an album from every listener were dead, but they're now making up for that revenue loss 2 ways:
  • inexpensive, all-you-can-eat streaming services that are easier to use than pirating
  • Expensive specialty physical releases, primarily vinyl. It certainly doesn't sell the way CDs used to, but they are often double or triple the price
Gaming has a different problem: being oversaturated in general, and especially live-service games that do their best to keep the player engaged and staying on their treadmill.

Gears 5 came out what, 2 months ago? And I've already stopped playing it since Outer Worlds came out and Modern Warfare has taken hold of my multiplayer hours.
 
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Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,227
I bought the Last of Us Remastered brand new digitally for $5. Why isn't anyone talking about these companies devaluing their own games by putting them on sale? Oh, right, because there are a million different interpretations of "value". If you look at all video games and just say "oh, those things are worth $60", and that's it, it displays a very limited understanding of how valuation works and how companies and consumers value products and services.

It was a Remaster and you likely bought that YEARS after launch, not sure what your point is here

If TLOU2 launched on PSNow day 1 and you could get a trial sub for $2, you dont think that would affect the consumer's perception of value for future titles?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
How do you suggest devs make "extra" money? While streaming music became a sort of advertisement for the artist to sell their goods (i.e. concert tickets, merch), what would game developers do? Release even more DLC, lootboxes?

Exactly. And how a game like GOW that doesn't have any of that but costs tens of millions can exist? Developers aren't charity, they won't do it for love.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,684
Money from used game sales finance further full price purchasing, so one could argue that they help maintain new-game unit value.

Which is why this has been so keenly taken up by developers and publishers.
the existence of used game stock was a good enough reason for retail purchasers to never make large volume repeat orders, because immediately after launch they would be able to purchase the games for lower than the publisher was selling them.
It's why everything is so frontloaded and all the games come out before Christmas , because only the first 6 weeks of sale really matter.
Every used game would be consumed by multiple users, the developer got 1 same and the retailer receive a multiple of this.