Yeah, your avatar is transparent. I didn't notice the difference immediately.
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Why Do We Gloss Over Discriminatory, Prejudiced Content In This Industry?
- Thread starter eyeball_kid
- Start date
Yeah, your avatar is transparent. I didn't notice the difference immediately.
I must admit, I was surprised to be in the minority that found Grand Theft Auto V's misogyny and neverending anal rape jokes to be notable. There were a lot of articles on the torture scene, but other than that woman who got death threats for her 9.5/10 review of the game, most critics didn't even mention the sexism. This is a game in which every single female character is some kind of "bitch" or "slut". Every single one. The only exception I remember was the police officer whose role in the game is to present yet another anal rape joke. I actually went and tracked it with pen and pencil, it was that bad.
I mean, one of the main characters' introductory scene has him having sex with a woman, denigrating her and then killing her. That was shocking to me, not so much because of the action depicted, but because how unimportant it seemed to be. It was just "edgy", a way of showing the protagonist doesn't "fuck around" and is evil. Not that it matters, an hour late he's written like your "funny crazy friend".
I remember thinking that not even Rance would sink that low. That's some merit right there.
I mean, one of the main characters' introductory scene has him having sex with a woman, denigrating her and then killing her. That was shocking to me, not so much because of the action depicted, but because how unimportant it seemed to be. It was just "edgy", a way of showing the protagonist doesn't "fuck around" and is evil. Not that it matters, an hour late he's written like your "funny crazy friend".
I remember thinking that not even Rance would sink that low. That's some merit right there.
Confession time:
While playing the game last year, I didn't even think about those two guys and how they were a negative portrayal of homosexual people.
Or about the objectification of Ann.
None of that crossed my mind at all.
But thinking about it now, yeah, it's pretty bad. I greatly enjoy everything else about the game though, and still think it's overall a fantastic game.
While playing the game last year, I didn't even think about those two guys and how they were a negative portrayal of homosexual people.
Or about the objectification of Ann.
None of that crossed my mind at all.
But thinking about it now, yeah, it's pretty bad. I greatly enjoy everything else about the game though, and still think it's overall a fantastic game.
And it's one of the biggest developers no less, huh. Fair enough.
Using the problems in a culture's media to generalize that culture's "nature" is also a flawed argument. Saying that LBGTQ+ discrimination is something inherent in Japanese culture completely ignores the Japanese LGBTQ+ population and the struggles they endure.
To answer your question, in addition to everything else said in the topic: I think Western media explores sexual issues less in general, and when it does it does it in a way that favors the eye of the straight dude, it's all eye candy, it's all a bunch of ladies in a bathhouse telling Kratos how good at sex he is. Things like that.
But I have definitely faced discrimination from English-speaking communities playing games online. I stopped using voice chat in online multiplayer games because often times when I spoke I would have transphobic slurs hurled at me. This kind of talking point being exhibited here not only generalizes the other cultures in question, it's commonly used as a tool to ignore discrimination in one's own community.
OP
OP
This game absolutely goes out of its way to be homophobic. These gay characters don't just magically show up in the game, they are the only gay characters in the game and are presented by the writers with the most damaging, regressive stereotypes. The writers and Hashino are on the hook for this, and this is not "misunderstanding gay people" -- as if for an artist that is even an excusable defense -- this is presenting them as dangerous predators and their sexual identity as something to mock.
Anyway, I don't want this thread to just be about Persona 5, and it's not about "smacking P5". It was just a good example because it's recent, it got many accolades from both press and community, and its homophobia is especially egregious. The point is that we (the collective "we" in the industry) have often treated these kind of discriminatory viewpoints in games as a one-sentence lament in a review, if that, and a few threads now and again that generate a lot of heat but rarely any action. Yes, Western games get more heat (aside from a few games like the aforementioned GTA) and Japanese games seem to get more of a "culture" defense, but I think Japanese studios need to get the message that these kinds of views are not appropriate. I think the press needs to take these issues more seriously and I do think blatantly racist or homophobic content should receive serious questions when thinking about awards. Probably the most effective thing would be for industry peers to speak up and say, "This kind of shit is not okay." I would love to see that. I would love to see Miyamoto or someone of his stature advocate for respect of minority groups. But I'm not holding my breath.
Yeah, I remember it being a big talking point when it came out last year.
As for why the game still receives praise and GOTY nominations, that's a case of judging it on the larger sum of it;s parts rather than just the problematic elements.
It really doesnt matter "how" he interpreted it. Straight people can't disagree with what homosexuals consider homophobic. Period. Gays? Sure. I guess. But if you are not that minority, and you see something literally every gay persona fan has criticized, and say you didnt "interpret" these FUCKING FLAMBOYANT PREDATORS as homophobic, you are ignoring actual gay people in favor of deluding yourself your precious game did no wrong. And thats homophobic, yes.
This is also as if there arent vocal gay rights activists in Japan that haven't been criticizing them for years. This isn't ignorance, this is a refusal to learn.
Just like a lot of people in this thread lol
Video games are art. Art appreciation and interpretation is a personal experience.
Not all art is for all people. You also don't need to like all parts of art to like the over all piece.
What you don't get to do is dictate the terms of other people interpreting appreciating or most importantly, creating art. That's totalitarianism and facist.
Not all art is for all people. You also don't need to like all parts of art to like the over all piece.
What you don't get to do is dictate the terms of other people interpreting appreciating or most importantly, creating art. That's totalitarianism and facist.
For the record I don't like those characters and the representation in persona 5.
But I don't agree with your stance or your accusations.
To each their own though.
I think this thread is asking "Why aren't great games criticized more?". I don't think it's productive or fair to turn that around and say "Why can't great art be problematic?" The former is worth a discussion and the latter, in this instance, is a poorly constructed defence that doesn't directly address the issue at hand.
Ok well when you become a homosexual in your next life and live through a childhood where all of your peers thought of you as those things and both mocked and avoided you, and then see someone say they arent homophobic or toxic representation when they arent gay and didn't have to live through that themselves, then I'll give you leeway. But thats not how that works.
White people don't decide what is racism, men dont decide what is sexism, cis dont decide what is transphobic. very easy concepts.
Y'all.
Y'all.
When a gay dude is telling you something is homophobic, you could probably take a minute to listen instead of raging over your animoos being criticized.
Y'all.
When a gay dude is telling you something is homophobic, you could probably take a minute to listen instead of raging over your animoos being criticized.
Says it's not a thread about Persona 5, discussion is all about Persona 5. C'mon, at least make an effort to extend it.
If you think that by removing Hashino from Persona this will magically make these issues go away, then you're being naive. The problem is not just Hashino or even Atlus. It's deeply ingrained in Japanese media.
There's two reasons why this shit keeps happening:
1) Creators are not well versed in the subject matter.
2) It's marketable and thus they keep getting away with it.
Media consumption keeps this feedback loop going. It needs to be called out by its people, so it can be adressed and an effort can be made to educate the rest on these matters. Then it takes years for these changes to take effect.
Homophobia is sadly just one of many issues and Persona 5 is just another drop in the bucket.
Channeling it back to the games industry, coverage of games is still maturing. Hence why threads like
https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...ut-reserve-the-right-to-change-my-mind.39699/
are necessary. Stating the obvious is not that obvious anymore.
If you think that by removing Hashino from Persona this will magically make these issues go away, then you're being naive. The problem is not just Hashino or even Atlus. It's deeply ingrained in Japanese media.
There's two reasons why this shit keeps happening:
1) Creators are not well versed in the subject matter.
2) It's marketable and thus they keep getting away with it.
Media consumption keeps this feedback loop going. It needs to be called out by its people, so it can be adressed and an effort can be made to educate the rest on these matters. Then it takes years for these changes to take effect.
Homophobia is sadly just one of many issues and Persona 5 is just another drop in the bucket.
Channeling it back to the games industry, coverage of games is still maturing. Hence why threads like
https://www.resetera.com/threads/pa...ut-reserve-the-right-to-change-my-mind.39699/
are necessary. Stating the obvious is not that obvious anymore.
You can criticize it all you want. The problem is that the criticism never happens without a suggestion that it be changed. I don't want any piece of art to be changed because someone is offended. I'm not invalidating anyones offense or opinion.
I don't buy paintings I don't like. I don't buy EVERY painting by artists I DO like if I don't like that particular painting.
Yeah I specifically remember reading about this in a few reviews last year, it was how I learned that it was there actually.
The hard truth is that most don't care. I've brought this up in different circles and the reaction is mostly either "it's not that big a deal" or "why are you so offended" and a few streamers I watched found it funny. So there's that.
But I can't really get bothered that people aren't that bothered about it because it really is a few minutes at most in a 100-hour game. It's okay to like problematic things while still criticizing those aspects, and I think that's where a lot of people (at least here) are coming from since when Persona 5 discussion comes up here this scene is almost always brought up here too.
It won't definitely go away, but I still have hope that since Hashino isn't on P6 that it'll atleast just not have gays at all.
Hashino as a person and head writer just does so much damage literally anyone is better.
Yoko Taro for Persona 6
P5 can be great art and problematic. That doesn't excuse why it lacked criticism for being so and that is a discussion worth having. As for changing the art, I don't think removing the homophobic parts of P5 would make it any less of a good game.
Woah...... you're asserting here that your personal experiences are what make you qualified to decide what homophobia is, yet your're also implying that white people can't experiencing racism, men can't experiencing sexism? Sure that's an easy concept but it's also wrong, and they type of bigotry you seem to be trying to change.
So you're fine with Fire Emblem having magic roofies turn a lesbian straight
because there are things that objectively should be changed and bring the art down, and their absence raises the art much higher. Creator vision aint worth shit when the creator is a shut-in homophobe misogynist
This is a little off topic, but all this praise of this game is pushing me towards playing it: Trouble is, I am NOT at all interested or intrigued by Japanese anime culture... If you're not at all into anime, can you still enjoy this game? I may be able to get it for 50% off on top of being on the Golden Week sale, just wondering.
I'm absolutely fine with that being in that game. I don't agree with it, and therefore didn't buy that art. Like you said. It's a simply concept.
...No, he was trying to say that you should put yourself in his shoes.
Which you've shown to be incapable of.
Ehhh. I don't think you need to like anime but it would probably help a lot.
Do you like long RPG's? That'd be the other big deciding factor.
Yes! Being gay makes you able to decide what homophobia is! Good job!
Also, lol, theres no double standards when heterosexuals are not murdered, ridiculed, judged, and oppressed on a systematic level. Reverse racism doesnt exist either, no. Men are men's own downfall, and also women's downfall. You cannot be bigoted towards the oppressor
Read the last line. He literally said certain groups of people aren't allowed to decide what certain types of prejudice are, even if they've personally experienced them.
Was this in Fates? Because if it was I think we all can agree that, objectively, Fates never shipping would have made it a lot more palatable.
Oh I didn't even consider the RPG factor of the game, well the only RPG I've played and loved is the Fallout series, especially New Vegas. Having said this, I cannot stand any of the Final Fantasy games due to the Anime inspired characters and story telling and the fact that they are RPGs.
I've tried playing P4, back in the day, I think it was a demo, and yeah... the anime inspired highschool characters and story wasn't for me....
Yeah, it was in the jpn version of Fates but removed/changed in the English release.
Straight people cant experience homophobia
I mean I have been a fan of anime and it's style for a long time so its hard for anyone to really say which way unless they didn't like Persona or anime before they played P5.
I imagine it would be difficult to get into for you, as it is very much an anime in game form...
Oof. Then, yeah. Probably not your cup of tea...
That's not what I'm taking issue with. As a white male, I've experienced both sexism and racism, yet you've stated very clearly that I'm not allowed to state that what I experienced was those things.
He slips her a drug that make you view people as the opposite sex. Still squicky and I have no issue with it being changed to a consensual mental test. But it did not "turn her straight."
"Making excuses for a pattern of homophobia"
That was low and nasty; I even said multiple times that those scenes were bad and I believe the responsible for those scenes is Hashino (since he's the leader of the project), heck, I even said that now that he's out of P-Studio Persona games may get better when it comes to representation of LGBT characters.
I may actually have broken a rule here for venting instead of eating that warning up.
That was low and nasty; I even said multiple times that those scenes were bad and I believe the responsible for those scenes is Hashino (since he's the leader of the project), heck, I even said that now that he's out of P-Studio Persona games may get better when it comes to representation of LGBT characters.
I may actually have broken a rule here for venting instead of eating that warning up.
being called whitey isnt equivalent to being shot en masse by police
so no, you're not oppressed.
I'd say pass then. It's a big game to invest in and it doesn't sound like it'd be your cup of tea. Maybe if you can catch it in a really good sale but otherwise you maybe want to hold out.
And thus this is the problem. It should be something we spend more time dwelling on.
They didn't say they were just that they experienced prejudices against them.
A few scenes that some people might not find it agreeable won't damage the whole package for most people.
That's why the game still ran for and won GOTY awards. Because the wwhole package is brimming with quality.
I would say it's worth it. There are anime stereotpes throughout the game, but I believe they are presented well enough that rarely become a nuisance even for those not used to it. Bayond that the story and gameplay mechanics are quite good, so it should be worth a purchase. Just keep in mind that it is a long game so be ready for that.
That's why the game still ran for and won GOTY awards. Because the wwhole package is brimming with quality.
I would say it's worth it. There are anime stereotpes throughout the game, but I believe they are presented well enough that rarely become a nuisance even for those not used to it. Bayond that the story and gameplay mechanics are quite good, so it should be worth a purchase. Just keep in mind that it is a long game so be ready for that.
No but being forced to eat in a specific section of a chinese restaurant is equivalent to having to sit at the back of the bus.
Being sexually harassed at work on an weekly basis and then having not just real people but society as a whole tell you that "it doesn't count" because I'm a man is absolutely sexism and equivalent to "she was asking for it"
You're changing your argument to one of oppression and not one of being able to say white men don't dictate sexism or racism despite experiencing them, when you've based your entire homophobia arguments on your own experiences.
Your view point is just replacing one form of bigotry with another and is quite frankly dangerous, devaluing sexism and racism as a whole and counterproductive.
they said they were a white man. white men dont experience oppression unless theyre lgbt or mentally ill, but if he were either he would've said so
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood
im not reading anything else you type
Not to defend those scenes as they are quite bad with the only silver lining being that they, in total, last like a minute in a 100 hour game, but it always upsets me slightly that Lala almost always seems absent from these conversations. I loved Lala, and I thought she was portrayed well, and I only had positive feelings towards her by the end.
It feels like she just gets brushed to the side in favor of solely talking about those two shitty scenes, and I find that kind of unfortunate.
Regardless, while I love the game, I really hope they take some backlash to heart. P5 has some inconsistent and even down right shitty writing at times with these scenes included. I can only assume they thought it a harmless joke, but I hope they somehow realize that it's not okay even as a throwaway line.
User Banned (Permanent): Downplaying homophobia and bigotry, account still in the junior phase.
Perfect, then I don't need to deal with your inability to understand any viewpoint outside of your narrow, sexist, racist cisphobic one, and hurl profanities at me.