• We are delighted to introduce GiftBot 2.0, the next generation of our popular gifting feature. To celebrate, we'll be giving away some incredible prizes over the coming weeks in one big Giveaway Extravaganza!

Why Halo Struggles to Evolve

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
  • Spawning with camo and picking up a sniper - superficial
  • People jet packing on top of the maps where you can't shoot them - superficial
  • Destroying a vehicle with armor lock - superficial
  • Bloom adding randomness to gunfights, rewarding those that spam - best gunplay ever
  • Maps designed with game mechanics in mind = bad
  • Mechanics not taken into account when designing a map = good
You can’t consistently get to positions like that with jet packs because you are a supremely vulnerable target.

I already stated that armor lock was bad

Bloom doesn’t reward randomly spraying. No matter how many times you say this, it won’t make it true.

Maps designed with game mechanics that are counterintuitive to how the game is meant to be played = bad

Maps not being designed specifically around abilities that only serve a niche = innocuous

Reading = hard

Uhh I think being able to fly across the map, spawn with camo, literally turn invincible for 8-10 seconds, and sprint around with no penalties sounds pretty big to me.
You’re just being disingenuous at this point because you can’t just “fly across the map”, camo is gimped as fuck unless you are almost motionless, and your penalty for sprinting is having to wait for your animation to finish to react to anything, which is pretty huge.

And most hilariously, even with how bad armor lock was, your invincible but you are unable to do anything else.
 

Hydes

Member
Oct 28, 2017
683
Halo should allow people to go third person or first person. Or zoom between the two.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Bloom doesn’t reward randomly spraying. No matter how many times you say this, it won’t make it true.
Yes it does which is why they removed it, they didn't do it without reason. Even at medium range spamming could win and it did. People started using needle rifles to get super combines because that would win out before pacing. It wasn't because of a failure to adapt it was because of randomness.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
You can’t consistently get to positions like that with jet packs because you are a supremely vulnerable target.

I already stated that armor lock was bad

Bloom doesn’t reward randomly spraying. No matter how many times you say this, it won’t make it true.

Maps designed with game mechanics that are counterintuitive to how the game is meant to be played = bad

Maps not being designed specifically around abilities that only serve a niche = innocuous

Reading = hard



You’re just being disingenuous at this point because you can’t just “fly across the map”, camo is gimped as fuck unless you are almost motionless, and you’re penalty for sprinting is having to wait for your animation to finish to react to anything, which is pretty huge.

And most hilariously, even with how bad armor lock was, your invincible but you are unable to do anything else.
I must have imagined playing powerhouse where people would literally fly from spawn to rockets grab rockets and then literally have a jet pack and rocket launcher.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
I must have imagined playing powerhouse where people would literally fly from spawn to rockets grab rockets and then literally have a jet pack and rocket launcher.
Or people on top of the map of Cage every single game, nothing consistent there. maybe if they took abilities into account something like that wouldn't happen, but no that's a bad idea...
 

Welfare

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
Bloom supporters lost the war in 2011, can't believe someone genuinely saying Bloom doesn't reward randomness today.

You can graph how enjoyable Reach becomes as you decrease Bloom and remove armor abilities.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Yes it does which is why they removed it, the didn't do it without reason. Even at medium range spamming could win and it did. People started using needle rifles to get super combines because that would win out before pacing. It wasn't because of a failure to adapt it was because of randomness.
Spamming could win but it wasn’t nearly as consistent as pacing shots, much like any game with spread

God imagine defending bloom
God imagine being this pressed about it


I must have imagined playing powerhouse where people would literally fly from spawn to rockets grab rockets and then literally have a jet pack and rocket launcher.
Yes and this was expected and they could be easily taken out
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
Spamming could win but it wasn’t nearly as consistent as pacing shots, much like any game with spread


God imagine being this pressed about it




Yes and this was expected and they could be easily taken out
They could easily be taken out with a dmr which I couldn’t fire fast enough because there was a mechanic that punished skilled players with fast shots.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
Reach on a decent map with no bloom sprint or armor abilities is arguably a top 2-3 Halo multiplayer experience for me. Reach with everything in it is among the worst and might be the worst if Halo 4 did not exist
 

Welfare

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
Spamming could win but it wasn’t nearly as consistent as pacing shots, much like any game with spread


God imagine being this pressed about it




Yes and this was expected and they could be easily taken out
Did people just freeze in gunfights for you? This makes no sense.

Spamming the DMR and moving toward the enemy made the likelihood of getting a kill higher than pacing shots.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
Then why weren’t you spamming it since the game rewarded it so much?
Because shooting the gun slowly was incredibly stupid because you’re always going to lose to someone spamming away because they’re going to hit twice as many shots as you.

The only thing bloom successfully did was make it so your shots were randomly dispersed
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Reach on a decent map with no bloom sprint or armor abilities is arguably a top 2-3 Halo multiplayer experience for me. Reach with everything in it is among the worst and might be the worst if Halo 4 did not exist
Both Halo 4 and Reach can be decent with even starts and no armor abilities, but yeah both are at the bottom of the franchise in terms of multiplayer.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
Literally the only time I paced my shots were when someone was absolute one shot and if I waited a second I knew I was guranteed to land a headshot. In every other instance spamming was the best way to win a fight
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Because shooting the gun slowly was incredibly stupid because you’re always going to lose to someone spamming away because they’re going to hit twice as many shots as you.

The only thing bloom successfully did was make it so your shots were randomly dispersed
That wasn’t my question. You said you couldn’t kill the theoretical jet packer because the game made you shoot slower. Your implication is also that spamming is rewarded. You don’t see the conflict in your position?
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,607
Reach on a decent map with no bloom sprint or armor abilities is arguably a top 2-3 Halo multiplayer experience for me. Reach with everything in it is among the worst and might be the worst if Halo 4 did not exist
With good settings and the DLC maps Reach is a solid game. I'm really looking forward to it coming to MCC! Hopefully 343 makes sure it at least has the TU installed.



 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
That wasn’t my question. You said you couldn’t kill the theoretical jet packer because the game made you shoot slower. Your implication is also that spamming is rewarded. You don’t see the conflict in your position?
Spamming is rewarded because you’re going to land shots twice as fast as someone who is pacing your shots, and the likelihood of killing someone with 8-10 shots with a dmr spamming is better then someone slowly shooting 4-5.

And what I’m saying is I am at a complete disadvantage because if I pace my shots I’m not going to get enough shots off quickly enough against someone who has good map positioning and power weapons, if i spam with 100% bloom it’s going to take me a solid 8+ shots to kill someone who is the lowest ttk in halo by a significant margin.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
It’s just a shame because without bloom the weapon sandbox in reach was actually really good.
I don't know, DMR cross mapping was pretty bad, and ruined the flow of BTB bloom or no bloom. Overall the sandbox was more balanced in terms of being useful coming off of Halo 3.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Spamming is rewarded because you’re going to land shots twice as fast as someone who is pacing your shots, and the likelihood of killing someone with 8-10 shots with a dmr spamming is better then someone slowly shooting 4-5.

And what I’m saying is I am at a complete disadvantage because if I pace my shots I’m not going to get enough shots off quickly enough against someone who has good map positioning and power weapons, if i spam with 100% bloom it’s going to take me a solid 8+ shots to kill someone who is the lowest ttk in halo by a significant margin.
The posters statement was that the jet pack ruined the game because they are penalized for shooting too fast and can’t truly counter them. But they’re also saying that spamming is preferred to pacing shots.

Is it oochie wally or is it one mic? With these reservations, only one can be true.
 

Welfare

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
In what way does having an increased margin of error also increase the likelihood?
Moving closer while spamming means reticle covers more of the hit box equals higher chance of killing someone.

Applying pressure on someone just makes them spam too, and then probably go into a double melee. If not, you are still getting close to double the shots they are firing, so the random factor of Bloom at that point is just a hindrance for both players. The one pacing has to worry that they don't die to the spammer first and the spammer has to worry RNG doesn't fuck them over.

Bloom added nothing positive to the game.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Moving closer while spamming means reticle covers more of the hit box equals higher chance of killing someone.

Applying pressure on someone just makes them spam too, and then probably go into a double melee. If not, you are still getting close to double the shots they are firing, so the random factor of Bloom at that point is just a hindrance for both players. The one pacing has to worry that they don't die to the spammer first and the spammer has to worry RNG doesn't fuck them over.

Bloom added nothing positive to the game.
If you’re relying on RNG, you aren’t being fucked over, you’re losing on the risk you took. Pacing in Reach wasn’t just waiting until the reticle was completely stable, it was knowing how to keep it just small enough to still have the target in it which varies at distances, and when you might want to take the risk of just spamming it, which is not consistent.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
The posters statement was that the jet pack ruined the game because they are penalized for shooting too fast and can’t truly counter them. But they’re also saying that spamming is preferred to pacing shots.

Is it oochie wally or is it one mic? With these reservations, only one can be true.
Spamming is preferred to pacing but they’re both horrible options.

Pacing you’re literally forced to shoot slowly which is just a dumb idea for a game mechanic.

Spamming is the lesser of two evils because it’s more effective than pacing shots but it’s still bad because it takes way too many shots to down someone
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Spamming is preferred to pacing but they’re both horrible options.

Pacing you’re literally forced to shoot slowly which is just a dumb idea for a game mechanic.

Spamming is the lesser of two evils because it’s more effective than pacing shots but it’s still bad because it takes way too many shots to down someone
You aren’t forced to shoot slowly, you’re encouraged to shoot just fast enough where your shots will be guaranteed hits on your target.

And this still doesn’t address my original juxtaposition between the two points. But it’s whatever. I’m just gonna let it ride.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
You aren’t forced to shoot slowly, you’re encouraged to shoot just fast enough where your shots will be guaranteed hits on your target.

And this still doesn’t address my original juxtaposition between the two points. But it’s whatever. I’m just gonna let it ride.
The bottom line is if there’s a system where you’re not encouraged to shoot as fast as you can because there’s a system that will randomly disperse your shots then it’s a dumb system.

Bloom is dumb and there’s a reason it was tweaked.
 

Agar25

Member
Apr 12, 2018
4,145
This thread turned into a wild read.. where one person clearly played a different version of a game than, uh, everyone else? Lol
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
This is the direction I'd take Halo into in terms of Infinite:

-No sprint.
-No smart scope
-Remove all spartan abilities, except for thruster.
-Faster base movement speed compared to Halo 1-3, but not by a crazy amount.
-Projectile weapons, but if this is done it needs to be done right. Good feedback on hit registration via shield flare, high tickrate servers a must.
-Bring back equipment but nothing that prolongs firefights (no bubble shields or regen fields).
-In terms of competitive modes focus on Arena and BTB, tertiary gametypes such as Invasion or Warzone typically hinder resources during post launch support.
-Official mod support, not just forge but actual development kits. The community could re-make any map they wanted in high fidelity.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
This is the direction I'd take Halo into in terms of Infinite:

-No sprint.
-No smart scopel
-Remove all spartan abilities, except for thruster.
-Faster base movement speed compared to Halo 1-3, but not by a crazy amount.
-Projectile weapons, but if this is done it needs to be done right. Good feedback on hit registration via shield flare, high tickrate servers a must.
-Bring back equipment but nothing that prolongs firefights (no bubble shields or regen fields).
-In terms of competitive modes focus on Arena and BTB, tertiary gametypes such as Invasion or Warzone typically hinder resources during post launch support.
I actually agree with all of this except for projectiles. Keep it hitscan.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
I've always preferred hitscan, but I also think projectiles could be done right which would be better for BTB map flow.
If Halo were on a positive trajectory like it was for 1-3 I’d be fine with them making another pretty radical evolution like what I feel reach did. But as it stands i’d like to see a pretty faithful return to the roots first.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,305
Damn maybe if they let their reticle go down a bit for that last shot they wouldn’t have missed the last 6



But it’s a game that discourages you from shooting as fast as you can because it will randomly disperse your shots
You should literally never have to stop shooting your weapon in a halo game. It’s just a bad mechanic. And in siege the TTK is so fast that it doesn’t really matter.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
If Halo were on a positive trajectory like it was for 1-3 I’d be fine with them making another pretty radical evolution like what I feel reach did. But as it stands i’d like to see a pretty faithful return to the roots first.
I think most people would prefer hitscan and I don't mind either way, but I'm curious what projectile would be like in a tecnically modern Halo. A lot of the problems in 3 came down to netcode, peer to peer environment, spread on BR, etc.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,695
Atlanta, GA
Defending bloom in 2019. Go back to 2010 bnet lol
I’ll die on this hill in 2050

I think most people would prefer hitscan and I don't mind either way, but I'm curious what projectile would be like in a tecnically modern Halo. A lot of the problems in 3 came down to netcode, peer to peer environment, spread on BR, etc.
I guess I wouldn’t be totally opposed to it but it seems like it could be really hit or miss
 

Tapiozona

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
755
I guess I'm one of the few who likes bloom. Added an additional layer of difficulty having to time your shots perfectly, or take the chance to hot or miss by spamming.

I'm super removed from console fps but can you buy or mod a controller to have a turbo function to insta spam shooting faster than any human can press? If so wouldn't bloom nullify that?

Seems like this thread is a mix of "it needs to change and evolve" and "why did they change halo?".

Halo feels old because that type of game became boring, so it had to evolve. Feels similar to people who complain about bands who sound exactly the same 5 albums in but then get nailed by reviews for "same old, can't keep with the times".

I love halo and not sure if I'd enjoy a huge evolution but I'm also open to something new like GoW did.
 

DvdGzz

Member
Mar 21, 2018
1,026
The problem for me is that you play a badass space ninja but people want Halo to control like CoD. This would anger the fans but I would love it to be 3rd person with awesome mobility. Like a much better version of Crackdown with next-gen Halo graphics, great animations, and awesome looking melee attacks. If this is just Halo 5 with a better story and graphics I won't be very excited for it. Change it up!
 

Paragraf

Member
May 31, 2019
251
Russia
343 made a lot of questionable decisions, but most head scratching ones are story related. Who thought putting Chief and Cortana in hardlight bubble and make him cry was a good idea? Why he's so emotional all of a sudden, when he fought Covenant for 25 years and lost a lot of comrades throughout the war? Why he acts like an idiot throughout Halo 5, ignoring everything? Why would you fill Requiem with Bionicles, instead of know and unknown alien species, to show how they would evolve under different conditions.
I enjoyed Halo 4 and 5. Campaigns are far from "horrible", but stories are most disappointing aspect. Infinite trailers look much more promising.
P.S. Halo Wars 2 story was decent and had some truly great moments. Unfortunately instead of some sort of conclusion we got " see you in mainline Halo " ending.
 

Defect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,607
You were a fool if you paced your shots. I was all for pacing and what Bungie intended it to be like but a month after launch I saw a video showing you could spam and the shots will still hit. My mind was blown and I spammed all the time and consistently made it to low % Onyx.
 
Last edited:

HTupolev

Member
Oct 27, 2017
728
If Halo were on a positive trajectory like it was for 1-3 I’d be fine with them making another pretty radical evolution like what I feel reach did. But as it stands i’d like to see a pretty faithful return to the roots first.
Projectile is hardly opposed to a faithful return to the roots. CE and 3 are both projectile.
 

Fatmanp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,002
This is the direction I'd take Halo into in terms of Infinite:

-No sprint.
-No smart scope
-Remove all spartan abilities, except for thruster.
-Faster base movement speed compared to Halo 1-3, but not by a crazy amount.
-Projectile weapons, but if this is done it needs to be done right. Good feedback on hit registration via shield flare, high tickrate servers a must.
-Bring back equipment but nothing that prolongs firefights (no bubble shields or regen fields).
-In terms of competitive modes focus on Arena and BTB, tertiary gametypes such as Invasion or Warzone typically hinder resources during post launch support.
-Official mod support, not just forge but actual development kits. The community could re-make any map they wanted in high fidelity.
I agree with all of this. In the H3 days I was very anti projectile coming from H2 but a lot of this is down to netcode, p2p etc. I do think that equipment was a decent idea in Halo that was poorly implemented as some of them often slowed the game down such as Bubble Shield and Regen field. If they could take another look at equipment and implement something like the following;

- Flare (Similar to H3)
- Portable Grav lift (Similar to H3 but where you can change the trajectory before deploying so that it can either take you straight up or 45 degrees similar to a man cannon)
- HUD Scrambler (Similar to Radar Scrambler but this one is an AOE effect that disables large portions of the HUD excluding the reticule)
- Gravity Well (AOE effect which makes everybody caught within move at 75% speed and 50% gravity)
- Deployable Teleporter ( This one is rife for abuse but a one time only use teleporter with a maximum range)
- EMP (nullifies all other active equipment/powerups such as OS and Camo)

I am sure the community could refine and improve upon a lot of these ideas and come up with others. One thing to note about equipment is that it is purely tactical equipment and nothing that deals or heals damage.
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
I think Reach’s multiplayer is getting unfairly shat on. And Sword Base is a good map.

I really enjoyed Reach’s multi. Did it hit the highs of Halo 2 or Halo 3? Nope.

But I had and look forward to having more fun with it soon. And I enjoyed it even before the Armour lock stuff was patched.