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Why Halo Struggles to Evolve

Scarecrow

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,313
Last year Destiny 2 was given away for free. While playing through the single player, I kept wishing it took place in the Halo universe. I don't care at all for whatever fiction Bungie constructed for Destiny. But a post-Halo 3 solar system setting could have been really interesting. At the same time, I really don't want to regress to old Halo gameplay either. It's just so slow. Destiny is what I think an evolved Halo would look like. Infinite being something akin to Destiny might bring me back to the franchise.
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
867
Quebec City
After looking at Destiny MP we lucked out with that one.
I don't know, I haven't played Destiny besides the demo. But when I look at FPS popularity on consoles right now, it seems that Destiny is quite a big player.

Bungie had said that Halo 3 was the last one. By contract, they had to put two other side titles on the market. But Microsoft decided to bring the IP forward and gave it to some people without prior real experience.

The question the OP had is "Why Halo struggles to evolve" and it's my answer, Bungie was out of touch so forget the IP. Bungie nurtured the Halo licence and they know they had to stop somewhere before going downhill. They did it at the right time in my opinion. But Microsoft wanted to milk that licence further. It's like last seasons of a declining sitcoms.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
708
Bring back projectile bullets you cowards
Are you insane? Projectiles are what ruined Halo 3 online. Nothing worse than having to arbitrarily lead your shots as the netcode fails miserably trying to track too many things at once. It's still amazing to me that so many people play that godawful game when Halo 2 exists and is a million times better.
 

blizzardjesus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
316
I just want to play a story with Captain King(Chief) and Cortana getting into some alien conspiracies, and blowing them up. I don't want to play as any other Spartan, I don't want to fight the Promethians, and I'm not interested in any rampancy/evil Cortana nonsense.

I'll play multiplayer for an hr, then never touch it again.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Have you played Halo 2 Anniversary MP? It's basically this, and MCC is pretty much "fixed" now. Shame it didn't launch like this, and shame it didn't get any new maps. Definitely check it out if you haven't.
Anniversary is king, but H3 in MCC, and even H2, does not work! The netcode is broken af! It's tiresome, and they are going to release this on the PC is just atrocious. It is going to damage Halo more than anything.
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Anniversary is king, but H3 in MCC, and even H2, does not work! The netcode is broken af! It's tiresome, and they are going to release this on the PC is just atrocious. It is going to damage Halo more than anything.
Have you tried it recently? :/ it seems to be working well for me. Are you outside the US or something?
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
Are you insane? Projectiles are what ruined Halo 3 online. Nothing worse than having to arbitrarily lead your shots as the netcode fails miserably trying to track too many things at once. It's still amazing to me that so many people play that godawful game when Halo 2 exists and is a million times better.
netcode is the key word here. It's not 2007 anymore. It also didn't help the BR had a pretty good spread on top of that.

Halo 2 is pretty good but for me Halo 3 is still the king of MCC for me.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,651
Anniversary is king, but H3 in MCC, and even H2, does not work! The netcode is broken af! It's tiresome, and they are going to release this on the PC is just atrocious. It is going to damage Halo more than anything.
I'm in the UK and I find it works alright for the most part.

Only issue is that I always get matched into East US servers which sucks.
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
708
netcode is the key word here. It's not 2007 anymore. It also didn't help the BR had a pretty good spread on top of that.

Halo 2 is pretty good but for me Halo 3 is still the king of MCC for me.
I will never trust the netcode enough to handle projectile bullets. Every game that uses them is littered with registration issues from my experience. I will die on the histscan hill. Bullets should go where I point the aimer. Period!
 

Ghostavus

Member
Nov 16, 2017
95
I see people noting the Destiny to Halo PvP stuff all the time, but outside of the movement / gunplay the two do not scratch even sort of the same itch to me.

Most of my favorite Halo memories (and still happening in MCC and occasionally 5) are from Big Team Battle. The openness and vehicles of matches in this mode is what caused so many unique moments per match in Halo. Also, having to figure out how to take down a good warthog duo or banshee pilot was fantastic and either required coordinating with teammates or getting to a power weapon. I really wish 4 and 5 wouldn't have made plasma pistoling / stickying vehicles so common.

I have always seen Battlefield as a more interesting way for Halo to go. I don't want the massive player count that it has, maybe just bump it up to 12v12 or 15v15 with slightly larger maps. I'm really hoping Infinite gives BTB its fair due after 5 neglected it.

5 even actually has a decent BTB now, but the forge maps just don't shine. If 343 dropped a surprisde BTB map pack for 5 this fall / winter I would die lol!
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
I will never trust the netcode enough to handle projectile bullets. Every game that uses them is littered with registration issues from my experience. I will die on the histscan hill. Bullets should go where I point the aimer. Period!
So every battlefield game. Battlefront.

Hitscan feels great for sure, but I think it kills BTB.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
PUBG and Apex Legends as well. Hitscan is boring. Hitscan is too easy in Halo
Too easy is the big part.

I get how crisp H2A feels but I think its absurdly easy to nail snipes and 4 shots in that game. More so than H2 which was also very easy.

Part of the reason I like the gunplay in H3 is you really gotta be on your A game to hit those shots.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
Are you insane? Projectiles are what ruined Halo 3 online. Nothing worse than having to arbitrarily lead your shots as the netcode fails miserably trying to track too many things at once. It's still amazing to me that so many people play that godawful game when Halo 2 exists and is a million times better.
I think Halo 3 has some of the worst gunplay because more often than not you're fighting the game and not the players due to the projectiles+bullet spread. Even something like the carbine where the shot lands somewhere random within the reticle. Having projectile weapons on a peer-to-peer environment was a bad idea, but projectiles in a modern game can work. Higher tickrate servers, better netcode, tighter spread/less random projectiles could all help. The problem with hitscan is it feels too easy in classic Halo. In Halo 2 Anniversary I'm landing perfect kills pretty much every gunfight. Hitscan also ruins map flow on BTB maps where you're getting pinged across the map. The only way BTB works is with the Halo 5 pistol which is hitscan but has reduced range compared to BR/DMR.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
I think Halo 3 has some of the worst gunplay because more often than not you're fighting the game and not the players due to the projectiles+bullet spread. Even something like the carbine where the shot lands somewhere random within the reticle. Having projectile weapons on a peer-to-peer environment was a bad idea, but projectiles in a modern game can work. Higher tickrate servers, better netcode, tighter spread/less random projectiles could all help. The problem with hitscan is it feels too easy in classic Halo. In Halo 2 Anniversary I'm landing perfect kills pretty much every gunfight. Hitscan also ruins map flow on BTB maps where you're getting pinged across the map. The only way BTB works is with the Halo 5 pistol which is hitscan but has reduced range compared to BR/DMR.
I haven't played H5 in ages. Have they finally put AR/Pistol starts in BTB? I did forge playests with those settings and its SO much better.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
I haven't played H5 in ages. Have they finally put AR/Pistol starts in BTB? I did forge playests with those settings and its SO much better.
I think it's still BR. I play Halo 5 still but only 4v4. The lack of BTB support (maps/starts) was one of the major failings of Halo 5.
 

Typhoon20

Member
Oct 28, 2017
701
How many of you really watched the video? Honestly, a great video. Made some great points you can't really argue against. His '' enhanced mobility'' argument was an eye opener. You're constantly locked in an animation.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Have you tried it recently? :/ it seems to be working well for me. Are you outside the US or something?
I'm in the UK and I find it works alright for the most part.

Only issue is that I always get matched into East US servers which sucks.
I am in Denmark, but it happens in the EU too, and to players in the US. It is not a connection problem, it is a netcode problem. I can even say, that server East US 2 is better than the north and west EU ones. Take a look at these clips.


Now, I dont want to desttroy ResetEra servers, soI am just posting links here with time stamps.

Watch 03:57 and 04:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LteLeXlmopA

This small compilation from a single guy.
Reddit link here

Another single clip from reddit
Linky link

Last youtube clip, look 03:30
crappy hit detection.

It happens every day, that my BR and Sniper creates bloodshot. It is a constant struggle. If they release this on PC, it is doomed pretty quickly. It will undoubtedly affect Halo infinite population at launch.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,651
I am in Denmark, but it happens in the EU too, and to players in the US. It is not a connection problem, it is a netcode problem. I can even say, that server East US 2 is better than the north and west EU ones. Take a look at these clips.


Now, I dont want to desttroy ResetEra servers, soI am just posting links here with time stamps.

Watch 03:57 and 04:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LteLeXlmopA

This small compilation from a single guy.
Reddit link here

Another single clip from reddit
Linky link

Last youtube clip, look 03:30
crappy hit detection.

It happens every day, that my BR and Sniper creates bloodshot. It is a constant struggle. If they release this on PC, it is doomed pretty quickly. It will undoubtedly affect Halo infinite population at launch.
That's pretty standard Halo 3 to be honest. The projectile shots and the trash random spread leads to shots which you think should be headshots but aren't.

I didn't watch all your clips but that ssaintly guy needs to learn to lead, he was just missing. The same can be said for a lot of those clips.

The ones with the snipes missing headshots look like lag to me rather than bad hit detection.
 
Last edited:

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
That's pretty standard Halo 3 to be honest. The projectile shots and the trash random spread leads to shots which you think should be headshots but aren't.

I didn't watch all your clips but that ssaintly guy needs to learn to lead, he was just missing. The same can be said for a lot of those clips.
Dude, I am sorry, watch all the clips from reddit and below, only watch the intro on the first video. And no, this is not standard H3. Blodshots happened, yes, but not on this level, and not on a guy, standing still, witch a fucking sniper.

H3 had lag problems, but not like this. People are eating shots.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,651
Dude, I am sorry, watch all the clips from reddit and below, only watch the intro on the first video. And no, this is not standard H3. Blodshots happened, yes, but not on this level, and not on a guy, standing still, witch a fucking sniper.

H3 had lag problems, but not like this. People are eating shots.
I did watch the rest of them.

Most of those BR clips can be explained by needing to lead or the BR spread.

The sniper ones I agree look bad but in both clips the players eating the shots were completely still which indicates lag.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
I did watch the rest of them.

Most of those BR clips can be explained by needing to lead or the BR spread.

The sniper ones I agree look bad but in both clips the players eating the shots were completely still which indicates lag.
No... They are AFK... It happens to me too!
You should not lead BR when a guy is 2 meters in front of you.
You could easily 4 shot people in H3 X360, but on MCC, you are lucky if you perform a 4 shot. It is ridiculous.
And it's not only me. It's every serious Halo player that still plays this game, from strongside to Tommy Kost.

I also shoot people through walls. I don't remember that happening in 360 days. Do you?
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,651
No... They are AFK... It happens to me too!
You should not lead BR when a guy is 2 meters in front of you.
You could easily 4 shot people in H3 X360, but on MCC, you are lucky if you perform a 4 shot. It is ridiculous.
And it's not only me. It's every serious Halo player that still plays this game, from strongside to Tommy Kost.

I also shoot people through walls. I don't remember that happening in 360 days. Do you?
You do need to hit them in the head though. In the one clip with a guy 2 metres away the player misses the headshot completely.

Also you definitely couldn't easily 4 shot in H3 360. There's a reason why the competitive modes had to up the damage - it's because the BR spread is trash and often lead to times where what you think is a kill shot actually isn't.

Also being shot through walls happened all the fucking time on 360 - that is just standard lag, it happens in almost every shooter out there.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,887
I don't know, I haven't played Destiny besides the demo. But when I look at FPS popularity on consoles right now, it seems that Destiny is quite a big player.

Bungie had said that Halo 3 was the last one. By contract, they had to put two other side titles on the market. But Microsoft decided to bring the IP forward and gave it to some people without prior real experience.

The question the OP had is "Why Halo struggles to evolve" and it's my answer, Bungie was out of touch so forget the IP. Bungie nurtured the Halo licence and they know they had to stop somewhere before going downhill. They did it at the right time in my opinion. But Microsoft wanted to milk that licence further. It's like last seasons of a declining sitcoms.
This is a total lie. Do you know who is in 343?
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
You do need to hit them in the head though. In the one clip with a guy 2 metres away the player misses the headshot completely.

Also you definitely couldn't easily 4 shot in H3 360. There's a reason why the competitive modes had to up the damage - it's because the BR spread is trash and often lead to times where what you think is a kill shot actually isn't.

Also being shot through walls happened all the fucking time on 360 - that is just standard lag, it happens in almost every shooter out there.
He does! he shoots him twice in the head after the grenade! The clip on midship is even MLG settings !

Jem, I said not BEING shot, I said ""I"" SHOOT people through walls. I snipe, he goes to cover, I shoot the wall, he dies.

Jem, I respect your Halo stance in every thread I have seen you participate in, but you are objectively wrong on this one. The net code is worse than it was in H3. It is not lag, they are not lagging about, they are eating bullets. It is not host-based anymore, it is server-based.

I don't play alone, I see my friends bloodshot other players from my POV as well.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
"I SAW BLOOD" was a common phrase for me and my friends in Halo 3.

Doesn't mean projectile is bad. Just give it a modern netcode.
 

BIG J

Member
Oct 27, 2017
793
i dont know what i want with halo, tbh

i want the classic gameplay for pvp but something like destiny would be interesting (open world, loot) for pve
 

Chasex

Member
Oct 29, 2017
708
I think Halo 3 has some of the worst gunplay because more often than not you're fighting the game and not the players due to the projectiles+bullet spread. Even something like the carbine where the shot lands somewhere random within the reticle. Having projectile weapons on a peer-to-peer environment was a bad idea, but projectiles in a modern game can work. Higher tickrate servers, better netcode, tighter spread/less random projectiles could all help. The problem with hitscan is it feels too easy in classic Halo. In Halo 2 Anniversary I'm landing perfect kills pretty much every gunfight. Hitscan also ruins map flow on BTB maps where you're getting pinged across the map. The only way BTB works is with the Halo 5 pistol which is hitscan but has reduced range compared to BR/DMR.
Halo 2 anniversary has the misfortune of having too much autoaim while also having slow-ish movement speed. Halo 2 classic has a lot of auto aim but the ability to strafe and use the environment more than makes up for it. At high level play barely anyone is 4 shotting.

The other benefit of having hitscan weapons and relatively higher auto aim is that you can do away with the screwed up aim acceleration due to not needing to make as many micro adjustments, which lets be honest controllers aren't good for anyways. Let's say I'm playing Halo 3 and want to look somewhere to throw a nade, I frequently find myself fighting the aimer just to get it in the right spot. It feels sluggish and inconsistent. Compared to Halo 2 is so much more linear I can pivot immediately to the spot I need because it's way more linear and responsive. I say this as someone who spent probably 10,000 hours playing Halo 3, and had a 50 in every playlist including a 5 star in MLG. I know that game like the back of my hand and aiming still feels unnatural.

BTB I can see your points but just limit the distance the bullets can travel and reduce the red aim range. Halo 2 BTB again plays fine even with Hitscan weapons imo.
 

CrypticSlayer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
368
Imagine a modern Halo game with projectile. It benefits from dedicated servers, likely a 60 tick rate and a more refined projectile system. It's not 2007 anymore, these systems have advanced. There's a bunch of popular shooters that use projectile and nobody complains. It adds to skill depth while also allowing other modes to flow better.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Exactly! Remove ads, remove sprint, and just give us Halo 2-3 with the Halo 5 netcode.
Play MCC then? From my experience the MCC netcode has been better than Halo 5 in recent times.

Either way, if you guys just want "classic Halo" or just a reskin of the originals, just play them. I'd rather we get some new stuff in the new games, with the feel of the originals. Halo 5 still feels like Halo to me, this is coming from someone who's played Halo since day 1. Hilarious that people think Halo 5 feels more like COD than Halo.
 

ItsBobbyDarin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,511
Egyptian residing in Denmark
Play MCC then? From my experience the MCC netcode has been better than Halo 5 in recent times.

Either way, if you guys just want "classic Halo" or just a reskin of the originals, just play them. I'd rather we get some new stuff in the new games, with the feel of the originals. Halo 5 still feels like Halo to me, this is coming from someone who's played Halo since day 1. Hilarious that people think Halo 5 feels more like COD than Halo.
MCC.IS.BROKEN.THE.NET.CODE.IS.NOT.WORKING.

H5 is a good game, but it is a crap Halo game.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
MCC netcode isn't perfect but its no better or worse than a lot of other MP games. To say its broken is just silly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,609
Play MCC then? From my experience the MCC netcode has been better than Halo 5 in recent times.

Either way, if you guys just want "classic Halo" or just a reskin of the originals, just play them. I'd rather we get some new stuff in the new games, with the feel of the originals. Halo 5 still feels like Halo to me, this is coming from someone who's played Halo since day 1. Hilarious that people think Halo 5 feels more like COD than Halo.
Ah yes, the classic "fuck you play the thing we tell you to" approach.
 

Poohblaster

The Fallen
Oct 31, 2017
72
I freely admit I'm a Halo dinosaur and the changes I would like to see would move the Halo sandbox closer to Halo CE. Almost none of these are ever going to happen.

1) No sprint, but a very fast base movement speed.
I believe that having sprint in Halo slows down the game because it's easier to break line of sight and it prolongs engagements.

2) Have a very strong starting weapon like the Halo CE pistol or the Halo 2 battle rifle
Mentally I can't handle assault rifle or SMG starts anymore. I'm just too old for that crap.

3) Plasma weapon should have a stunning effect like they did in Halo CE
Circle strafing with a plasma pistol or plasma rifle in Halo CE just felt so good. Once the stun effect was removed in later titles, plasma weapons were relegated to shield draining duties.

4) FOV in multiplayer needs to be a least 90 degrees.
Seeing more of the map is better than less.

5) Clamber and ADS are fine.
Clamber increases mobility which speeds up the game (fine with me). ADS doesn't bother me as long as the pistol, battle rifle, sniper rifles, and other scoped weapons are smart linked.

6) Include a custom games browser.
Idiots like me just want to play tower of power or tremors sometimes.

7) Lots and Lots of good Maps
Halo Map Quality
Halo 2 > Halo CE > Halo 3 > Halo Reach > Halo 5 > Halo 4
Halo needs good maps again end of story.
 

T0M

Member
Aug 13, 2019
68
With a franchise as historic as Halo, there's no real need to innovate too much. It's very proven that fans like it when sequels are "the same, but different." Just look at Call of Duty. Jetpacks and advanced movement were cool for a game or two, but players quickly got sick of getting shot at from random places. Now it's back to boots on the ground, just in a more modern setting.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,313
Thank goodness. Destiny 1 didnt even present enough of a game for me to give destiny 2 a chance

343 has a bunch of ex bungie employees who worked on the halo franchise.
Destiny is an incredibly good PvE game.

Something I think Halo has struggled with since the transition. 343 has yet to make PvE encounters as good as Bungie made them. The prometheans are a travesty in general.]

Bungie somehow forget all the glorious PvP they made with Halo when they made Destiny PvP though, lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,709
San Jose
1) No sprint, but a very fast base movement speed.

2) Have a very strong starting weapon like the Halo CE pistol or the Halo 2 battle rifle

3) Plasma weapon should have a stunning effect like they did in Halo CE

4) FOV in multiplayer needs to be a least 90 degrees.

5) Clamber and ADS are fine.

6) Include a custom games browser.

7) Lots and Lots of good Maps
Solid list, agreed on basically everything, especially #4 #6 and #7, FOVs absolutely need to have a slider in all games not just Halo, I hope with PC we'll see our old friend the server browser return, and really #7 the most important, good maps please Lord have some good ass Halo maps
 

Mercador

Member
Nov 18, 2017
867
Quebec City
Thank goodness. Destiny 1 didnt even present enough of a game for me to give destiny 2 a chance

343 has a bunch of ex bungie employees who worked on the halo franchise.
Yeah I know, but probably not the ones that given the Halo franchise its soul, its spirit. It's difficult to explain but for me, the switch from Bungie is like going to a AAA series to a B series. You can push as much money as you want, if the heart isn't there, you can feel it.