Why Halo Struggles to Evolve

Jon God

Member
Oct 28, 2017
202
I said "amazing" and that it's still a great game. But to answer your question: hardware/software capabilities and innovations, and everything else that goes along with more investment over time in a new technology/medium. Was pong "good for its time?". Yes, yes it was. But its pretty lame now. Sometimes things change. Halo is still great, but it's silly to say that many aspects of it haven't been overshadowed time and time again. Part of the reason it was so good was because it was innovative. All those games you've mentioned are classics, but that doesn't mean that time doesn't expose their drawbacks.
Not every game ages though. Would you argue that Tetris is outdated?

I'd argue that, yes Halo was innovative, but as a post above this one mentions, it didn't lose it's identity until Reach. They built on a very strong foundation innovating on top of it, instead of completely changing. Halo 2 sold more than Halo 1, Halo 3 sold more than Halo 3. Halo Reach sold less than Halo 3, Halo 4 sold less than Halo Reach. Halo 5 sold less than Halo 4.

When they diluted the core of the game, it didn't resonate with people as much, and the solution you suggest is change it _even more_... when it's clear that they were not able to take what made it good in the first place and iterate on it. I don't really trust that any changes they make could be anywhere close to the heights that Halo reached with the original 3 games.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
Good video. I've been saying this for years. Halo is elegant simplicity. It is a tank doing a ballet and being able to have full access to movement options and combat options at the same time is integral to how it plays. Halo 1-3 had a ton of innovation but the core gameplay loop felt cohesive the whole way through. People often cite lack of sprint making Halo tough for newcomers etc-I would counter with Doom 2016 not having sprint and being incredibly well received. Halo's simple gameplay: movement, jump, crouch, shoot, melee, grenade can all be pulled off simultaneously as soon as the player learns what buttons do what on the controller they are ready to play. It is infinitely accessible. Anyone can play Halo. I dare even say people can play it competently. Taking these mechanics-shoot, jump, melee, etc-and mastering them is what makes someone play Halo well.

Also to the video's point-Halo can evolve and should evolve in a way that doesn't change the core gameplay. We actually see this a lot in Halo 1-3. Just off the top of my head:

Halo 2: new weapons including the sword which functions entirely different from the rest of the sandbox, new game modes, dual wielding, destructible and interactive environments/fusion coils that explode, switches on maps that open up new routes, destructible vehicles, gravity lifts, conveyer belts, tracking rocket functionality, flying vehicles

Halo 3: equipment (bubble shield, mine, power drain), forge, theater, additional game modes including zombies, even more new weapons, man canons, additional grenades,

There was a ton of new stuff to take in with both Halo 2 and 3. The gameplay had some variation between each game that upset people but by and large it was consistent. Move to Reach/4/5 and things change dramatically. There is no doubt that Halo 1-3 feel infinitely more cohesive than 4/5. It is really frustrating as a Halo fan. I know there are fans of the newer games but I would dare argue that the older fans are more likely to stick with the game and form a lasting community-see the player population charts. Halo died when it lost its identity, the simplicity that it once had.

Jumping into Halo 4 and Halo 5's massive gameplay changes coupled with the art and music changing and the game seems even more foreign to long time fans. Halo 4 and 5 become a game with elements of Halo in it rather than a Halo game with new innovations attached to it. Simply put, Halo's gameplay was the delivery vehicle for innovation in the series-innovation happened around not in the gameplay loop. In Halo 4/5 a Halo-esque environment became the delivery vehicle for a strange gameplay loop that was somewhat reminiscent of Halo.

And this is largely without even beginning to touch on the story. That is a different topic entirely but suffice to say the story consistencies that Bungie had in the original trilogy are not wholly present in 4/5.
Halo 4 and to an extent 5 felt like someone who was given the halo license but had no interest in making a halo game, so they put halo looking and sounding things in a FPS they wanted to make.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
I'll be honest I'm not sure what purists want anymore out of an "evolved" Halo. Halo 5 felt like a logical progression of the gameplay, after the fumblings of Reach and 4. Spartans being spartans.

I'll be even more honest and say it kinda surprises me that so many people even want to go back to Halo 3-style gameplay. Every time I play 3 nowadays, much as I still love the game, I feel so dang slow. It's like molasses. Damn, can I get a sprint button please?
Also


My biggest issue with sprint is not that it’s too fast, it’s that it is actually not as fast as you think and gives players disadvantages. If I want to have my gun out at all times, I am at a disadvantage because I’m moving slower than everyone else.

And I have more access and more movement ability in reality in halo 1-3.
 

Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,778
Denmark
If you are knee deep in the post-Bungie games all you can do is begin to complicate why the brand hasn't "grown".

It's really simple: 343i did not make Halo what it was to begin with and in "catching up" they started making it more like other brands while never truly nailing the Halo blueprint themselves. As an outsider looking in on Halo 5 you could just tell that it gets half of the Halo spirit entirely wrong. I also couldn't believe how stupid the story was. 343i also just seems like a corporate media behemoth to me. There is none of that chest-beating Bungie attitude that Halo needs in that studio.

Halo wasn't ever deep in narrative but it was rich with it, and it used to have Joe Statens geeky, tongue in cheek writing all over it and at least self-indulgent attempts at emotional storytelling within an epic context. The new Rogue AI Cortana plot is a fucking saturday morning cartoon.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,622
As someone who absolutely played the shit out of Halo 1 and 2, I still remember getting my hands on the Halo 3 beta and having my mind blown. It felt like a next gen evolution for Halo. They added forge, theater mode, new vehicles, new weapons, bigger maps and QoL stuff. I can’t say I felt the same way for 5. The only thing I felt when I played 5 was, “meh, they managed to not mess up the multiplayer. The campaign is trash though.”

Tbf, I feel the same way for most MS first party games this gen. It’s just middle of the road stuff, which is disappointing since they were such a powerhouse last gen.
 

Yan

Member
Oct 29, 2017
159
Isn't Halo Infinite doing exactly that? I heard it's going to have more sandbox elements in it's design.
 

AR Starts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
331
Halo 4 and to an extent 5 felt like someone who was given the halo license but had no interest in making a halo game, so they put halo looking and sounding things in a FPS they wanted to make.
Exactly. It’s a FPS that kind of looks like Halo. 5 isn’t bad it’s just not Halo.
If you are knee deep in the post-Bungie games all you can do is begin to complicate why the brand hasn't "grown".

It's really simple: 343i did not make Halo what it was to begin with and in "catching up" they started making it more like other brands while never truly nailing the Halo blueprint themselves. As an outsider looking in on Halo 5 you could just tell that it gets half of the Halo spirit entirely wrong. I also couldn't believe how stupid the story was. 343i also just seems like a corporate media behemoth to me. There is none of that chest-beating Bungie attitude that Halo needs in that studio.

Halo wasn't ever deep in narrative but it was rich with it, and it used to have Joe Statens geeky, tongue in cheek writing all over it and at least self-indulgent attempts at emotional storytelling within an epic context. The new Rogue AI Cortana plot is a fucking saturday morning cartoon.
I agree. Bungie had the seeds sown for AI rampancy but going back to Marathon it was a little more...subtle? It wasn’t this cackling evil villain that Cortana became. Nor should Cortana and Chief ever had a “relationship” in 4.

Bungie drew on history, biblical imagery, Nordic mythology, etc a lot in their stories. It made Halo feel like a big universe whereas the story in 4 and 5 feels much more generic sci-fi. All of the mysteries were explained: how the flood came to be, exactly how the forerunner disappeared...and it was all very underwhelming. The ancient forerunner vs human war, flood being space dust that people put on their pets, the forerunner splitting between didact and librarian, the idea of force powers as the mantle of responsibility, and Chief being the chosen one through a millennia of planning just feels flat. Ironically they tried to expand on the universe and it ended up feeling smaller.
 

Push

Member
Jun 2, 2018
23
Again, if you want Halo to change so much, you're just done with Halo. There are plenty of games that are offering you what you want. The changes you want will make Halo not Halo anymore. Go to one of those games instead of trying to make Halo something it is not. Halo was in its prime with the original mechanics while other games had sprint, ADS, abilities, such as CoD, but Halo was still popular. Halo doesn't need to evolve, that isn't its problem. It just needs people that understand how to handle the property, which so far the people who are handling it doesn't seem to know what they are doing.
 

Push

Member
Jun 2, 2018
23
We have seen two trailer of Infinite, and every trailer heavily evokes Halo 1-3. The first trailer heavily evokes Combat Evolved, and there’s been multiple Halo 3 music pieces used. They have also said that Halo Infinite will be a spiritual reboot of the series. Everything is pointing to a return to form. If they market the game like that and then turn around and go the complete opposite of what they’ve been saying and showing then idk how the fan base will react.
There will be no more fanbase.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,488
I'll be honest I'm not sure what purists want anymore out of an "evolved" Halo. Halo 5 felt like a logical progression of the gameplay, after the fumblings of Reach and 4. Spartans being spartans.

I'll be even more honest and say it kinda surprises me that so many people even want to go back to Halo 3-style gameplay. Every time I play 3 nowadays, much as I still love the game, I feel so dang slow. It's like molasses. Damn, can I get a sprint button please?
Thats why youre not understanding what were asking for. Halo 5 to a lot of us wasnt a logical progression-it was shoehorning a bunch of mechanics from other contemporary shooters into the series rather than sticking with its core design.

Also I agree about Halo 3. I played the other weekend and I certainly am not advocating for that. But god no to sprint.
 

RockStier

Member
Jul 21, 2019
5
All of the mysteries were explained: how the flood came to be, exactly how the forerunner disappeared...and it was all very underwhelming. The ancient forerunner vs human war, flood being space dust that people put on their pets, the forerunner splitting between didact and librarian, the idea of force powers as the mantle of responsibility, and Chief being the chosen one through a millennia of planning just feels flat. Ironically they tried to expand on the universe and it ended up feeling smaller.
That’s my main problem with 343i Halo.
The sense of mystery is completely gone.

They’ve a hell of a job to do restoring some of that!
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,348
Halo needs to be a fun and open ended physics sandbox with lots of options for guns and vehicles. That’s literally the key to success.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,488
the people who hate Reach all seem to complain about the same things. How the armor abilities changes the meta for Multiplayer games. That's it. It's like they didn't notice the amazing campaign, and get stuck on the new things they tried to do in Reach.

I'm pretty sure Halo 4 sucked from top to bottom, with a shitty campaign and a just servicable MP.


They were supposed to follow up with decent map packs. Instead we got a bunch of Forged shit. But the game itself was great.
Its not it actually. Armor abilities were bad, unbalanced, and broke the game but then you also had

-Weapons that behaved like potato guns. Bloom made firefights obnoxious and tedious. DMR was significantly worse than the BR or pistol and the new weapons were super underwhelming.
-Changing how melee attacks worked. Before, bleedthrough meant that if you were more accurate with a few shots your melee could finish them off. Reach meant that no matter how many shots you landed before the melee, so long as they had 1% of their shields left that melee hit wouldn't touch their actual health or finish them off. This allowed people to just sprint straight at you while you unload bullets at them and permitted them to just melee you to death at the same rate you could melee them which often led to both of you killing eachother despite the fact you unloaded half a clip in them before punching them. It was beyond stupid to implement this system and it went hand in hand with ruining the gameplay (still the worst in the series)
-Grenades were unbelievably OP and could one hit kill you even with full shields and full life
-Maps were awful and far too many forge maps
-Added in a CoD leveling system as opposed to the previous entries which meant people just leveled up for playing as opposed to having to win. This was stupid and another move meant to cater to the cod audience.
-Added sprint into the series which forever ruined the base movement of Halo
-Added loadouts to appease cod fans
-Added modes where one team was all elites-which meant they started with vastly inferior weapons and worse hit boxes making these modes wildly unbalanced.

To say that people only disliked Reach because of armor abilities is absurd and doesnt understand how fundamentally broken Reach MP was. And thats not even getting into just HOW bad armor abilities were in that game. I honestly cant stress enough just how bad of a game halo reach's multiplayer was. That this was clearly the groundwork for which 343 would use to "evolve" the halo franchise with their future entries explains the state of the franchise today.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,245
That’s my main problem with 343i Halo.
The sense of mystery is completely gone.

They’ve a hell of a job to do restoring some of that!
This made me pretty annoyed, but it's a problem with a lot of nerd culture. We can't let stories be stories. They have to be intricately designed comprehensive histories with every question answered. I mean, I love pouring over lore as much as the next guy but man does it feel like they were just like huh I wonder what that was and just BAM it's gone.

It's crazy because Bungie is continuing to make fantastic lore RIGHT NOW. Destiny's lore if you've been following it recently is just, it's so good. So many things are lining up. It's moving at a snails pace, but it's so thorough it doesn't feel slow, it feels big. It's still so full of mysteries despite the incredible amount of revelations recently. Late last year we got an explanation for what happened during a cutscene back in Taken King. Everyone assumed one thing and boom not only did something else happen, but it's explained as part of this whole big sub plot which directly sets up the main plot. It's EXCITING. They never, ever show their full hand. So they some how manage to have these huge info dumps, very carefully timed to be not too much but super impactful, and yet it never feels like the mystery is removed. The amount of factions interacting and stories that diverge naturally and come together naturally all bumping together is just incredible. I honestly don't know how they do it, but it's so much better than what I've always felt with 343 which is just. Okay here's the cool sci-fi answer. The bungie drama and pathos is gone. The silly cheesy and yet takes-itself-seriously vibe isn't there. It's just serious now. Normal, boring, all questions asked and then answered, asked and then answered, over and over, just like any other sci-fi out there.

I know there are some compelling stories Halo has told, including under 343. But I just get no wonder or excitement. I want that so much from Halo. I want to feel like I did when I first played CE. I want to feel like there's this great big thing. This unknowable presence that slowly I uncover but never quite know. This otherworldliness. Because this alien race isn't just humans in space. Or if it is humans in space, they are so utterly unknowable to us that we are continually surprised by things they did. I never have gotten that from 343 halo. It doesn't feel like there's that sense of imagination there. It just feels so sterile. So lifeless to me. I want to be astonished. I want chills down my spine. I want to go wtf. I want a billion questions racing around in my head. I don't get that with sterile soldier drama in space which I've seen and heard a billion times over elsewhere. I don't get that with no one in Halo 5 making any sense except for PLOT. I don't get that with zero fucking characters when any personality whatsoever.

:(

I just. * sigh *
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,245
Halo needs to be a fun and open ended physics sandbox with lots of options for guns and vehicles. That’s literally the key to success.
you know what's funny?

Minecraft has literally done that. And it's been growing in popularity AGAIN recently.

It still keeps to those same, simple, fundamental methods of movement and interaction. All that has changed is the sandbox. It has just got newer and bigger and better.

Halo can do that too. It's also well known for it's sandbox. it's astounding to me that the sandbox isn't what they've been focusing on.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
Atlanta, GA
Lol Reach ruined even starts and had loadouts. It absolutely affected the fundamentals.
No I didn’t because the game played exactly the same at its core and there were armor abilities which were mostly superficial and bloom which arguably made the shooting better, but nothing took away from Halo’s freedom of mobility.

Halo 4 with mandatory sprint moved toward this and Halo 5 took the series in a completely different direction with all of these inherent abilities that were supposed to improve mobility on paper, but in execution severely limited what the player was able to do.
 

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,401
No I didn’t because the game played exactly the same at its core and there were armor abilities which were mostly superficial and bloom which arguably made the shooting better, but nothing took away from Halo’s freedom of mobility.

Halo 4 with mandatory sprint moved toward this and Halo 5 took the series in a completely different direction with all of these inherent abilities that were supposed to improve mobility on paper, but in execution severely limited what the player was able to do.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,245
No I didn’t because the game played exactly the same at its core and there were armor abilities which were mostly superficial and bloom which arguably made the shooting better, but nothing took away from Halo’s freedom of mobility.

Halo 4 with mandatory sprint moved toward this and Halo 5 took the series in a completely different direction with all of these inherent abilities that were supposed to improve mobility on paper, but in execution severely limited what the player was able to do.
Uh.

Mostly superficial.

Um.

"and bloom which arguably made the shooting better"

ahhhhh uhhh er
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
Bloom is arguably one of the dumbest decisions any FPS multiplayer game has ever made.

Imagine believing it’s a good idea to make players shots random and force them to shoot slower.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,245
Bloom is arguably one of the dumbest decisions any FPS multiplayer game has ever made.

Imagine believing it’s a good idea to make players shots random and force them to shoot slower.
We're still struggling with it in Destiny 2 and it's a huge reason I basically never play on console (the PC version doesn't really have any bloom thank fuck, although that may have been more of a Vicarious Visions decision? It's hard to tell; they did the PC port itself). It feels awful. It's weird because Bungie toned it down in D1.

343 absolutely has the right idea with not featuring it especially with Reach when it gets added to MCC.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
We're still struggling with it in Destiny 2 and it's a huge reason I basically never play on console (the PC version doesn't really have any bloom). It feels awful. It's weird because Bungie toned it down in D1.

343 absolutely has the right idea with not featuring it especially with Reach when it gets added to MCC.
Yeah.

I hear a lot of 343 slander but I honestly think the series would be in a much worse place Multiplayer wise under Bungie. I think Destinys Multiplayer, on console at least, is really bad.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,488
No I didn’t because the game played exactly the same at its core and there were armor abilities which were mostly superficial and bloom which arguably made the shooting better, but nothing took away from Halo’s freedom of mobility.

Halo 4 with mandatory sprint moved toward this and Halo 5 took the series in a completely different direction with all of these inherent abilities that were supposed to improve mobility on paper, but in execution severely limited what the player was able to do.
This sure is an opinion
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,226
No I didn’t because the game played exactly the same at its core and there were armor abilities which were mostly superficial and bloom which arguably made the shooting better, but nothing took away from Halo’s freedom of mobility.

Halo 4 with mandatory sprint moved toward this and Halo 5 took the series in a completely different direction with all of these inherent abilities that were supposed to improve mobility on paper, but in execution severely limited what the player was able to do.
No.

Armor Abilities weren't superficial. Jetpack ruined map design/flow. Then you had Armor Lock which slowed down the whole pace of the game and made fire fights more tedious. And because of random armor abilities/load outs the "balance" players use to start with in Halo was gone. Before, every player started off on the same foot, and those who reached power weapons and were able to control those spots would win. Now, different players had different load outs, armor abilities, etc.

The bloom did not make shooting better. It added more randomness. Someone could hit the trigger and spam shots and randomly every shot would hit (close range/mid range). It added nothing to the game.

The melee sucked.

With the updates, DLC, TU/MLG settings, etc. Reach became a better game tho. I'm looking forward to it's inclusion in MCC.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
Atlanta, GA
No.

Armor Abilities weren't superficial. Jetpack ruined map design/flow. Then you had Armor Lock which slowed down the whole pace of the game and made fire fights more tedious. And because of random armor abilities/load outs the "balance" players use to start with in Halo was gone. Before, every player started off on the same foot, and those who reached power weapons and were able to control those spots would win. Now, different players had different load outs, armor abilities, etc.

The bloom did not make shooting better. It added more randomness. Someone could hit the trigger and spam shots and randomly every shot would hit (close range/mid range). It added nothing to the game.

The melee sucked.

With the updates, DLC, TU/MLG settings, etc. Reach became a better game tho. I'm looking forward to it's inclusion in MCC.
The chances of every shot hitting at random are slim to none. Acting like adding an element of randomness to the game completely undermines skill is hilarious when games like CSGO and Siege exist with similar bloom and weapon spread.

Jet packs didn’t ruin map design but you know what did? The armor abilities in Halo 5. The maps were designed for specifically for clambering and thrusting in mind. The maps in Reach weren’t designed to accommodate the armor abilities which can be seen as an issue depending on who you are asking.

Armor abilities in Reach ranged from risk/reward (sprint, jet pack), situational (camo, decoy), and overpowered (armor lock). Which you won’t find me as someone who defended armor lock.

But it’s funny that you mention armor lock slowing the pace of the game like all of the changes made to how Halo plays fundamentally in 5 didn’t?
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,226
The chances of every shot hitting at random are slim to none. Acting like adding an element of randomness to the game completely undermines skill is hilarious when games like CSGO and Siege exist with similar bloom and weapon spread.
It's not slim to none. I've tapped the shit out of it plenty of times and gotten kills lol. The MLG/esport playlist for Reach always took Bloom out, it's hilarious that you think MLG would want to lower skill levels at the competitive level.

Jet packs didn’t ruin map design but you know what did? The armor abilities in Halo 5. The maps were designed for specifically for clambering and thrusting in mind. The maps in Reach weren’t designed to accommodate the armor abilities which can be seen as an issue depending on who you are asking.
Jet packs 100% ruined map flow and design. Because.. you can't design for jet packs.

So maps made for clambering and thrusting WERE ruined by clambering and thrusting and maps NOT made for jet packs weren't ruined by jet packs?... okay.

Armor abilities in Reach ranged from risk/reward (sprint, jet pack), situational (camo, decoy), and overpowered (armor lock). Which you won’t find me as someone who defended armor lock.
Before every player started on the same foot. The goal was to get to the power weapons/control points of the map, win the matchups, get the power weapons, and out skill the opponents. With the various armor abilties, people don't start on a equal foot anymore. It's basically different loadouts/perks. Dumb.

But it’s funny that you mention armor lock slowing the pace of the game like all of the changes made to how Halo plays fundamentally in 5 didn’t?
Halo 5's battles still moved at a quick pace. The biggest thing was it's easier to get away. But there were counters in place your shield taking much longer to recharge. Hell, there were complaints that Halo 5's TTK was too fast.

And yea, armor lock slowed the shit out of the game. I have one shot left on some dude. "Armor Lock". Oh, now I gotta wait 2 seconds.....

....pop. He's dead. Now I can move on.

Or, more than occasionally:

 
Oct 25, 2017
1,473
sprint and things like thrust and clamber, and jetpacks and Iron sights ruin map creation and the flow of halo gameplay.

*cue halo 5 ADS defenders saying its not the same*
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,927
Yeah.

I hear a lot of 343 slander but I honestly think the series would be in a much worse place Multiplayer wise under Bungie. I think Destinys Multiplayer, on console at least, is really bad.
Definitely. Bungie showed the entire Destiny community they couldn't care less about pvp balance during the spring revelry. What a massive shitfest that was.

For anyone not familiar with Destiny 2, during this year's spring event players had access to a consumable item which drastically reduced your abilities cooldowns and it was usable in the crucible, even in the competitive playlist.

It was bad. The Crucible is not precisely famous for being balanced but that shit was disgusting. The event lasted for three weeks and Bungie's response to the complaints was basically: "oops sorry nothing we can do now."

Imagine playing Halo and for three long weeks the only game mode available on every play list incluing ranked, was fiesta on steroids.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
Atlanta, GA
It's not slim to none. I've tapped the shit out of it plenty of times and gotten kills lol. The MLG/esport playlist for Reach always took Bloom out, it's hilarious that you think MLG would want to lower skill levels at the competitive level.



Jet packs 100% ruined map flow and design. Because.. you can't design for jet packs.

So maps made for clambering and thrusting WERE ruined by clambering and thrusting and maps NOT made for jet packs weren't ruined by jet packs?... okay.



Before every player started on the same foot. The goal was to get to the power weapons/control points of the map, win the matchups, get the power weapons, and out skill the opponents. With the various armor abilties, people don't start on a equal foot anymore. It's basically different loadouts/perks. Dumb.



Halo 5's battles still moved at a quick pace. The biggest thing was it's easier to get away. But there were counters in place your shield taking much longer to recharge. Hell, there were complaints that Halo 5's TTK was too fast.

And yea, armor lock slowed the shit out of the game. I have one shot left on some dude. "Armor Lock". Oh, now I gotta wait 2 seconds.....

....pop. He's dead. Now I can move on.

Or, more than occasionally:

Sorry your anecdote doesn’t really hold water against the reasonable probability. Sure, you can bang somebody from across the map while moving with a deagle in CSGO but the chances of it being replicable are very slim and you’re much better off pacing shots, similar to reach. At certain ranges, removing the bloom decreases the skill gap because if the spread is smaller than the target, you have much lower margin of error.

Something like the jet pack in reach had a huge risk associated with it because it was clumsy, for one. And for two it could get you caught out in the open as an easy target for multiple people. The same with sprint, since it would effectively limit your ability to react to someone who isn’t.

The problem with 5 is that having a huge set of abilities that every player has, all doing something similar to sprint in reach, limits your offensive kit because you cant be offensive (shoot or throw grenades) while sprinting, clambering, thrusting, etc and the maps were designed around this being true for every player.

That’s what slowed Halo 5 down. Yes it has the lowest TTK of any Halo, but also the slowest base movement speed. You would think with the lower TTK and all of these “enhanced mobility” abilities that the pace of the game would be faster, but it wasn’t. It’s actually the slowest of the entire series.

Definitely. Bungie showed the entire Destiny community they couldn't care less about pvp balance during the spring revelry. What a massive shitfest that was.

For anyone not familiar with Destiny 2, during this year's spring event players had access to a consumable item which drastically reduced your abilities cooldowns and it was usable in the crucible, even in the competitive playlist.

It was bad. The Crucible is not precisely famous for being balanced but that shit was disgusting. The event lasted for three weeks and Bungie's response to the complaints was basically: "oops sorry nothing we can do now."

Imagine playing Halo and for three long weeks the only game mode available on every play list incluing ranked, was fiesta on steroids.
To be fair, Destiny isn’t exactly meant to be a serious competitive shooter. That clearly isn’t a priority for that game and the problems with balance reflect that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,141
Are we seriously arguing that Reach is worse than 4 or 5?
The funny thing is that it's especially the Xbox community that seemed to have become tired and saturated with their own poster boy. It seems to me as if the PC crowd is 2x as energized with MCC.
Xbox Halo players just had to sit through 2 disappointing mainline entries and a remastered collection that launched in an awful state.
Meanwhile PC fans are about to get the MCC in a improved state after having to make due with Halo CE mods for like an eternity.
Of course the PC fans are more hyped.
 

VeePs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,226
Sure, you can bang somebody from across the map
It's not across the map. Across the map it can't happen. Like I said earlier, midrange, it happens. Again, you mention CS GO. You're telling me MLG/esports players took out bloom to lower the skill gap? CS GO with a completely different gameplay is suppose to be a better example than players who played Halo Reach at the highest level. Yea, no.

Something like the jet pack in reach had a huge risk associated with it because it was clumsy, for one. And for two it could get you caught out in the open as an easy target for multiple people. The same with sprint, since it would effectively limit your ability to react to someone who isn’t.
Yes, it was a risk/reward with the jetpack. That wasn't my point. The point was Halo Reach maps weren't designed around Jet Packs. They completely ruined the flow of the map, and it ruined the balanced Halo starts.

The problem with 5 is that having a huge set of abilities that every player has, all do something similar to sprint in reach. They limit your offensive kit because you be offensive (shoot or throw grenades) while sprinting, clambering, thrusting, etc and the maps were designed around this being true for every player.
I actually agree somewhat, but I'd rather everyone have the same abilities than people having different abilities or load-outs. That's a certain balance Halo always had, along with control for power weapons. It's also another reason Halo 4 sucked. I'm not a fan of clamber, but this is less about Halo 5 and more about you thinking Reach didn't change Halo for the worse and mess with the formula as well, you thinking somehow Halo Reached improved the shooting in this series, and you thinking Halo Reach is the best MP in the Halo franchise.

Bloom made battles less based on skill, armor lock slowed down the gameplay, armor ablities ruined even start, melee was just bad, level design was bad.

But hey, agree to disagree.

Are we seriously arguing that Reach is worse than 4 or 5?
Everyone think's Halo 4 MP is ass. I'm debating that Halo Reach isn't the best MP in the series, and took deviations with it's formula that hurt the gameplay and franchise. Someone else brought Halo 5 into it and we got side tracked like that.
 

Clusterdreams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,569
Atlanta, GA
It's not across the map. Across the map it can't happen. Like I said earlier, midrange, it happens. Again, you mention CS GO. You're telling me MLG/esports players took out bloom to lower the skill gap? CS GO with a completely different gameplay is suppose to be a better example than players who played Halo Reach at the highest level. Yea, no.



Yes, it was a risk/reward with the jetpack. That wasn't my point. The point was Halo Reach maps weren't designed around Jet Packs. They completely ruined the flow of the map, and it ruined the balanced Halo starts.



I actually agree somewhat, but I'd rather everyone have the same abilities than people having different abilities or load-outs. That's a certain balance Halo always had, along with control for power weapons. It's also another reason Halo 4 sucked. I'm not a fan of clamber, but this is less about Halo 5 and more about you thinking Reach didn't change Halo for the worse and mess with the formula as well, you thinking somehow Halo Reached improved the shooting in this series, and you thinking Halo Reach is the best MP in the Halo franchise.

Bloom made battles less based on skill, armor lock slowed down the gameplay, armor ablities ruined even start, melee was just bad, level design was bad.

But hey, agree to disagree.



Everyone think's Halo 4 MP is ass. I'm debating that Halo Reach isn't the best MP in the series, and took deviations with it's formula that hurt the gameplay and franchise. Someone else brought Halo 5 into it and we got side tracked like that.
It happens but it isn’t something that is consistent. You’re taking a calculated risk spamming a weapon with any type of spread. MLG making changes reducing bloom came off more as people unwilling to adjust to a change to the shooting of the mid/long range weapons.

I can’t possibly see how jetpacks, which are extremely risk reward and honestly favor the risk can ruin “map flow”. None of these armor abilities made a huge impact on how Reach played other than Armor lock, which as I already said, was a problem. They weren’t substantial changes to the way the game played as much as they were small additions that added another wrinkle.

Bloom was much more of a change than the armor abilities.

I would honestly argue that 4 had better multiplayer than 5 but neither of them were good for different reasons, so what’s the point of splitting hairs. 343 doesn’t really seem to know what they’re doing with this series.
 

Moose

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,483
  • Spawning with camo and picking up a sniper - superficial
  • People jet packing on top of the maps where you can't shoot them - superficial
  • Destroying a vehicle with armor lock - superficial
  • Bloom adding randomness to gunfights, rewarding those that spam - best gunplay ever
  • Maps designed with game mechanics in mind = bad
  • Mechanics not taken into account when designing a map = good
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
Bloom penalized spamming unless you mean at like point blank range where the random shots wouldn’t be much of an issue since you have the chance of having more shots land before someone pacing, which is still a crapshoot.
It happens but it isn’t something that is consistent. You’re taking a calculated risk spamming a weapon with any type of spread. MLG making changes reducing bloom came off more as people unwilling to adjust to a change to the shooting of the mid/long range weapons.

I can’t possibly see how jetpacks, which are extremely risk reward and honestly favor the risk can ruin “map flow”. None of these armor abilities made a huge impact on how Reach played other than Armor lock, which as I already said, was a problem. They weren’t substantial changes to the way the game played as much as they were small additions that added another wrinkle.

Bloom was much more of a change than the armor abilities.

I would honestly argue that 4 had better multiplayer than 5 but neither of them were good for different reasons, so what’s the point of splitting hairs. 343 doesn’t really seem to know what they’re doing with this series.
Uhh I think being able to fly across the map, spawn with camo, literally turn invincible for 8-10 seconds, and sprint around with no penalties sounds pretty big to me.
 

Proven

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,933
IMO I’d rank the last 3 halo games

ZBNS REACH> Halo 5 > TU REACH> Base Reach > Halo 4