Why Halo Struggles to Evolve

Chettlar · Aug 12, 2019

Clusterdreams said:
Bloom gave the shooting a different rhythm that rewarded mastering that rhythm over spamming RT.

okay 1, that's what fire rate IS.

2, no it really didn't. Because it was better to fire as fast as possible in case you did get lucky. It was never worth it to shoot slower and then hope that the other guy who fires really fast doesn't get lucky. The only way to get a kill by firing slowly reliable against anyone who wasn't trash was to get a good drop on them. That is not how to encourage good gun fights.

Bloom "penalized" "spamming" (aka firing at the fire rate of the gun like in a normal game) by making the final hit random. All that does is produce randomness. I never came across anyone who didn't fire at max fire rate and nor did people I knew who played Reach for hours. That's how they conveyed it to me as well.

Clusterdreams said:
In what way does having an increased margin of error also increase the likelihood?

....because going towards the person decreases the margine of error, and the benefit of spamming overweighs the negative of randomness the closer you get and thus the less the randomness matters??

..???

This isn't hard???

You just..threw out that part of that person's post. Are you daft?

Hurting Bomb · Aug 12, 2019

Moose said:
This is the direction I'd take Halo into in terms of Infinite:

-No sprint.
-No smart scope
-Remove all spartan abilities, except for thruster.
-Faster base movement speed compared to Halo 1-3, but not by a crazy amount.
-Projectile weapons, but if this is done it needs to be done right. Good feedback on hit registration via shield flare, high tickrate servers a must.
-Bring back equipment but nothing that prolongs firefights (no bubble shields or regen fields).
-In terms of competitive modes focus on Arena and BTB, tertiary gametypes such as Invasion or Warzone typically hinder resources during post launch support.
-Official mod support, not just forge but actual development kits. The community could re-make any map they wanted in high fidelity.

Agree, but I would keep sprint.....or at least up the base movement speed to Doom 2016 levels.

Fatmanp · Aug 12, 2019

Hurting Bomb said:
Agree, but I would keep sprint.....or at least up the base movement speed to Doom 2016 levels.

Sprint is not needed. All that happens is maps get elongated to accommodate but you lose combat readiness.

Defect · Aug 12, 2019

Hurting Bomb said:
Agree, but I would keep sprint.....or at least up the base movement speed to Doom 2016 levels.

Sprint was never needed in Halo. Just up the base movement speed.

Like imagine sprint on Guardian. Actually you don't need to imagine it because it's a thing in Halo Online and it's ridiculous.

Hurting Bomb · Aug 12, 2019

Defect said:
Sprint was never needed in Halo. Just up the base movement speed.

Like imagine sprint on Guardian. Actually you don't need to imagine it because it's a thing in Halo Online and it's ridiculous.

Going back to Halo 3 is painful, feels like you're stuck in treacle!

Fatmanp · Aug 12, 2019

Hurting Bomb said:
Going back to Halo 3 is painful, feels like you're stuck in treacle!

Halo 3 is slower because the FOV is much narrower than Halo 2. Despite this i do think the base movement speed was slightly reduced as well which makes it feel even slower. It was immediately noticeable at launch which is why MLG settings were 110% movement speed.

BadAss2961 · Aug 12, 2019

thebishop said:
I don't love the assumption that every videogame franchise needs to exist forever, or at least until it runs totally off the rails.

Pretty much this... Halo had run its course a long time ago. There's really no reason to keep it going other than banking off what's left of its name.

It can coexist with other, more popular shooters, but its days of being anything special are over.

a_mad_bag_of_cats · Aug 12, 2019

the perk to halo (originally, and in particular multiplayer) was that everyone started off the same, no difference in abilities health and so on - it made it compelling as everyone was equal.

Halo Reach was great (to me) because you could get abilities and there was the start of a class system which was limited to only 1 ability. i played SP and firefight (RIP) more, and i felt like the AI in 1 was the peak of enemy gaming AI (and friendly too).
Adding brutes to 2 did nothing for me
adding 1 shot kill bastard sniper jackals to 2 did absolutely nothing for me
taking away the story of the covenant and the arbiter takign a back seat in 3 did nothing for me
adding prometheans with questionable shields and healers in 4 did nothing for me.
removing firefight was a sin
re-using the same boss multiple times and facing them in 1on1, then 2 on 1 then 3 on 1 did nothing for me
too much happens between each game that asks too many questions (and your average fan doesnt read all the books - what the fuck happened to the antagonist of 4? - who isnt present in 5)

ODST was the freshest evolution - and was great, but how many years ago was that?

Halo shouldn't be a generic military shooter, but the industry has changed.

Deleted member 35071 · Aug 12, 2019

as someone with no dog in this fight. I loved Halo 1 & 2 and then pretty much didn't play any of them after that.

I played some Halo 5 multiplayer during a free weekend or something once. And my initial impressions were that it didn't really feel like Halo...felt more like COD. So what was the point in playing this when it now felt like everything else.

Tawpgun · Aug 12, 2019

Ragnarok Flames said:
sprint and things like thrust and clamber, and jetpacks and Iron sights ruin map creation and the flow of halo gameplay.

*cue halo 5 ADS defenders saying its not the same*

Bruh its 2019 and there are still people that think Halo 5 ADS affects gameplay.

Almost as bad as defending 100% bloom in 2019.

All this back and forth arguing is giving me peak HaloGAF vibes tho, so keep it up

VeePs · Aug 12, 2019

Hurting Bomb said:
Going back to Halo 3 is painful, feels like you're stuck in treacle!

I play it each week in MCC and sadly it's the main game found in the BTB playlists, and sometimes 4v4 playlists lol.

The movement speed, the FOV, the bullet spread on the BR, some useless/powerless weapons in the sandbox ughhh. It kills me lol. With that said I still enjoy playing it. The game would literally be 2x better if you fix those issues tho.

Ragnarok Flames · Aug 12, 2019

and yall think i have bad takes on halo...

RandomExpletive · Aug 12, 2019

Lentic said:
Doesn't CSGO have one particular bloom pattern for each weapon? I thought that was a big appeal of that game.

Oh thank God someone else brought this up before I got here, yes CSGO has fixed spray patterns (as does Apex Legends which is pretty cool)

Fatmanp · Aug 12, 2019

Tawpgun said:
Bruh its 2019 and there are still people that think Halo 5 ADS affects gameplay.

Almost as bad as defending 100% bloom in 2019.

All this back and forth arguing is giving me peak HaloGAF vibes tho, so keep it up

I am one of the old school Halo purists "Sprint is bad rah rah" but I agree that I am not fussed with ADS. I think the effectiveness could be toned down for short range weapons but my only real issue is that it screws up bumper jumper configs having it on LT. Stick it back on RS and we are golden.

Ragnarok Flames · Aug 12, 2019

Fatmanp said:
I am one of the old school Halo purists "Sprint is bad rah rah" but I agree that I am not fussed with ADS. I think the effectiveness could be toned down for short range weapons but my only real issue is that it screws up bumper jumper configs having it on LT. Stick it back on RS and we are golden.

ADS needs to go because it brings NOTHIGN NEW to the game.

it was added so that there was another thing to entice CoD fans to play halo.

343i doesnt know what its doing.

Scullibundo · Aug 12, 2019

I had no problem when Sprint was an ability to choose in Reach. That seemed like a good compromise.

Fatmanp · Aug 12, 2019

Ragnarok Flames said:
ADS needs to go because it brings NOTHIGN NEW to the game.

it was added so that there was another thing to entice CoD fans to play halo.

343i doesnt know what its doing.

If it doesn't negatively impact gameplay (yet to see it do so) then I have no issues with it.

Tawpgun · Aug 12, 2019

Fatmanp said:
If it doesn't negatively impact gameplay (yet to see it do so) then I have no issues with it.

If it helps bring in people just by fusing some familiarity into halo then I don't know why anyone would be so against it.

If we have smart scope or the scope link I could go either way

jelly · Aug 12, 2019

I'm not too keen on ADS. I don't particular mind them on short range stuff but the rifles, I really miss the simplistic sight.

Dinjoralo · Aug 12, 2019

Fatmanp said:
Sprint is not needed. All that happens is maps get elongated to accommodate but you lose combat readiness.

If they're upping the scope of Infinite, the levels can only get so compressed. The speed should probably get ramped up anyway. Take advantage of that 60+ frames per second, baby.

Rogue Kiwi · Aug 12, 2019

He hits all the issues I have with modern Halo. I played thousands of hours of Halo up until Reach, even played 3 competitively a bit. The reason I loved it so much was the simplicity of the gameplay, the lack of twitch shooting and consistency in movement meant you had time to think out strategy in encounters. See your opponent in the open? In Halo 1-3 you know how long it will take to get to cover and whether or not you should engage. In Reach, 4 and 5 you don't know what your opponent will do in terms of movement. Will they sprint out? Jetpack? Clamber? etc. The added complexity removed the strategic element and made it an unpredictable mess.

343 needs to return to the core gameplay of 1-3 and innovate around the environment and sandbox instead of player mechanics.

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

This seems like a very unimportant thing but I really hope physics play a bigger role in the game. I know some of the ultra competitive probably hated it but every Halo game post 3 has felt kind of flat in that regard. Vehicles don't go flying. Neither do boxes. Explosions have no impulse. Rockets don't get deflected.

I remember being able to deflect rockets and the grav hammer actually felt like it had a big gravity effect.

Bring back physics!

VeePs · Aug 13, 2019

Tawpgun said:
This seems like a very unimportant thing but I really hope physics play a bigger role in the game. I know some of the ultra competitive probably hated it but every Halo game post 3 has felt kind of flat in that regard. Vehicles don't go flying. Neither do boxes. Explosions have no impulse. Rockets don't get deflected.

I remember being able to deflect rockets and the grav hammer actually felt like it had a big gravity effect.

Bring back physics!

I started playing MCC again roughly 2 weeks back. About 2x each week. And I was playing Halo 2 the other night and a explosion deflected my plasma grenade and stuck someone lol. It was great.

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

Moose said:
-Remove all spartan abilities, except for thruster.

yeah i hate fun too.

Sephzilla · Aug 13, 2019

Sou Da said:
yeah i hate fun too.

Spartan Abilities have been trash since their inception

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

Sephzilla said:
Spartan Abilities have been trash since their inception

No, they haven't. They're good, they're fun.

Mercador · Aug 13, 2019

Well, Bungie is out so...

Sephzilla · Aug 13, 2019

Rogue Kiwi said:
He hits all the issues I have with modern Halo. I played thousands of hours of Halo up until Reach, even played 3 competitively a bit. The reason I loved it so much was the simplicity of the gameplay, the lack of twitch shooting and consistency in movement meant you had time to think out strategy in encounters. See your opponent in the open? In Halo 1-3 you know how long it will take to get to cover and whether or not you should engage. In Reach, 4 and 5 you don't know what your opponent will do in terms of movement. Will they sprint out? Jetpack? Clamber? etc. The added complexity removed the strategic element and made it an unpredictable mess.

343 needs to return to the core gameplay of 1-3 and innovate around the environment and sandbox instead of player mechanics.

Yeah, this. Sprint, armor abilities, and the like messed up the flow of the gameplay. Sometimes less is more.

Sou Da said:
No, they haven't. They're good, they're fun.

Nah, they're pretty garbage and disrupt the natural flow of the gameplay. They've had multiple games to make that shit work and it's always wonky.

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

Sephzilla said:
They've had multiple games to make that shit work and it's always wonky.

I'm talking about the 5 ones, they're good.

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

I think spartan charge and ground pound (which I adore) can likely leave. Spartan charge just seems stupid and everyone has hated melee rushers in every Halo game since 2. Reach and onward made it even worse due to sprint.

Ground Pound is just kind of silly. But its fun. So I'm torn. 95% of the time it makes no sense to do it but damn does it feel satisfying lol.

The thrusters I generally like but I can see how they are problematic for design.

The one ability I actually LOVE is the hover though. Something about it just feels nice

VeePs · Aug 13, 2019

Mercador said:
Well, Bungie is out so...

After looking at Destiny MP we lucked out with that one.

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

VeePs said:
After looking at Destiny MP we lucked out with that one.

Destiny MP is like all time bad and I really really enjoy Destiny. I basically give up on any quest that requires crucible tho

jviggy43 · Aug 13, 2019

Tawpgun said:
Bruh its 2019 and there are still people that think Halo 5 ADS affects gameplay.

Almost as bad as defending 100% bloom in 2019.

All this back and forth arguing is giving me peak HaloGAF vibes tho, so keep it up

Ads effects gameplay. Idk why people on this board continue to further that lie perpetuated by 343.

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

jviggy43 said:
Ads effects gameplay. Idk why people on this board continue to further that lie perpetuated by 343.

Tell me how/provide proof.

ADS in Halo 5 is nothing more than a reskin of the digital zoom in previous entries.

The only valid criticisms of it are "I liked the old one better because I don't wanna see the gun when I aim"
and
"they shouldn't have it on melee weapons/close range weapons."

And the 2nd point is I think not "ads affects gameplay" but "I don't like the design decision to add zoom to these weapons"

I actually like the zoom on the close range weapons to help tighen spread. I think it adds more depth to the sword as well.

jviggy43 · Aug 13, 2019

Tawpgun said:
Tell me how/provide proof.

ADS in Halo 5 is nothing more than a reskin of the digital zoom in previous entries.

The only valid criticisms of it are "I liked the old one better because I don't wanna see the gun when I aim"
and
"they shouldn't have it on melee weapons/close range weapons."

And the 2nd point is I think not "ads affects gameplay" but "I don't like the design decision to add zoom to these weapons"

I actually like the zoom on the close range weapons to help tighen spread. I think it adds more depth to the sword as well.

Bullet spread for automatic weapons was tightened when aiming down sights in Halo 5 as opposed to just hip firing.

I'm also confused how you admit that it tightens spread but also claim it has no effects on gameplay. Literally conflicting positions. You might have meant that ADS doesn't have a large impact on the gameplay but thats not the same as saying it has NO effect on gameplay.

And even if ADS was truly just cosmetic in Halo 5 (its not), then theres no reason for it to exist other than to bring in CoD fans. And in which case I dont want CoD fans coming over because they arent sticking around for the longevity of the game and will be asking for further CoD esque implementations into the series to justify why they left and in turn will continue having this franchise homogenize itself with most of the other shooters on the market that also cater to the CoD foundation.

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

jviggy43 said:
Bullet spread for automatic weapons was tightened when aiming down sights in Halo 5 as opposed to just hip firing.

I'm also confused how you admit that it tightens spread but also claim it has no effects on gameplay. Literally conflicting positions. You might have meant that ADS doesn't have a large impact on the gameplay but thats not the same as saying it has NO effect on gameplay.

And even if ADS was truly just cosmetic in Halo 5 (its not), then theres no reason for it to exist other than to bring in CoD fans. And in which case I dont want CoD fans coming over because they arent sticking around for the longevity of the game and will be asking for further CoD esque implementations into the series to justify why they left and in turn will continue having this franchise homogenize itself with most of the other shooters on the market that also cater to the CoD foundation.

ADS is purely cosmetic in Halo 5. What you are talking about is their decision to add zoom to automatics. If they added zoom to automatics within the old digital zoom system it would have had the same effect. The BR has a tighter spread when zoomed vs unzoomed. You can be against them adding zoom to automatics but I find that seperate from complaining about the aim down sights in general which for every other weapon is purely cosmetic.

Hucast · Aug 13, 2019

Find this thread a bit premature with infinite's anouncement, but I see there's been 12 pages so there may have been some valuable discussion?

Firefox · Aug 13, 2019

VeePs said:
After looking at Destiny MP we lucked out with that one.

That's not entirely fair I feel.

I agree that Halo 5 is better than Destiny PVP overall but it all depends on the direction given to the designers. If there is a clear move towards eSports, you will get something like Halo 5 multiplayer. If the focus is more on aligning with the main shared world shooter activities, you will get what we have now with Destiny.

I'm happy that Microsoft has focused on eSports in the way that they have. We've gotten one of the best multiplayer games this generation out of it.

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

Hucast said:
Find this thread a bit premature with infinite's anouncement, but I see there's been 12 pages so there may have been some valuable discussion?

No, there hasn't.

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

jviggy43 said:
And in which case I dont want CoD fans coming over because

This is a stupid fucking position, it's literally just gatekeeping mixed in with some "not muh"

jviggy43 · Aug 13, 2019

Tawpgun said:
ADS is purely cosmetic in Halo 5. What you are talking about is their decision to add zoom to automatics. If they added zoom to automatics within the old digital zoom system it would have had the same effect. The BR has a tighter spread when zoomed vs unzoomed. You can be against them adding zoom to automatics but I find that seperate from complaining about the aim down sights in general which for every other weapon is purely cosmetic.

I just posted a video that proved ADS is not just cosmetic. I literally dont have words to describe how wrong you are. Do you know what that term means? Are you conflating it with the fact that the other Halo games having ADS effect gameplay to mean it doesn't do anything different in halo 5 then in past games? Because even then its still not cosmetic (and it doesn't function the same as the previous games since zoom on autos wasnt in the game, nor did it help bullet spread with auto weapons in the other games).

That seems to be your argument. Regardless of if you like them or dont like them, ADS is not a cosmetic effect in Halo (either in the old games or 5). The difference being adding ADS to guns without scopes now, which continues to add elements of CoD to the weapons that didnt previously exist. Youre just wrong, in either case, and you should stop saying that because it isnt what you actually mean, in addition to the fact that its just objectively not true.

Sou Da said:
This is a stupid fucking position, it's literally just gatekeeping mixed in with some "not muh"

No its not. Saying I dont want CoD features in Halo to appease CoD fans (because it will alter the gameplay) is not fucking gatekeeping. CoD fans probably dont want CoD catering to Halo fans either. In either case it has nothing to do with keeping people out and everything to do with wanting the foundation of the game to remain true to its essence and not having it attempt to homogenize the market.

DorkLord54 · Aug 13, 2019

VeePs said:
After looking at Destiny MP we lucked out with that one.

Crucible is a hot, garbage mess. Gambit is what competitive Destiny should've been all along.

Dougieflesh · Aug 13, 2019

Hucast said:
Find this thread a bit premature with infinite's anouncement, but I see there's been 12 pages so there may have been some valuable discussion?

Someone was seriously defending Halo Reach bloom in 2019, so that killed any chance for reasonable discussion for a couple pages.

VeePs · Aug 13, 2019

Firefox said:
That's not entirely fair I feel.

I agree that Halo 5 is better than Destiny PVP overall but it all depends on the direction given to the designers. If there is a clear move towards eSports, you will get something like Halo 5 multiplayer. If the focus is more on aligning with the main shared world shooter activities, you will get what we have now with Destiny.

It doesn't have to be focused on esports, but the MP in Destiny does not feel balanced, at all.

I played Destiny 1 alot, and I was really hyped. New game, new series, Bungie could do what they wanted. In the end it wasn't good imho.

The map design was okay, shotguns were overpowered, and ultimately the MP felt unbalanced. And maybe I'm wrong but the game didn't even have dedicated servers (?)

I didn't play Destiny 2 much (few hours). At that point I was burnt out, and some of the regressions made me just not want to play anymore. The gameplay/shooting/controls/fluidity/feedback of the player still felt great, one of the best this generation. But the MP felt more of the same.

I don't think you need to be focused on esports to deliver a fun, balanced, competitive mode. And just to clarify I mean PvP/Crucible, not PvE.

Falcon511 · Aug 13, 2019

This video speaks to me in many ways. I would love for an Infinite to take a more modern approach to the classic Halo formula. Take out the Spartan abilities. They are trash. Keep the core mechanics. Team Slayer and Objective modes should have some fun maps with vehicles. Think Terminal, Zanzibar, Coagulation, and Burial Mounds. But also make maps like Lockout, midship ect. Of course have an arena competitive mode. But sometimes I want team slayer to be a bit fun and a bit competitive.

Welfare · Aug 13, 2019

Certain Spartan Abilities can work in a classic Halo framework. The controls and speed of the game just need to be reworked, but obviously this would need to happen since nothing will actually be a Halo 2/3 reskin. Momentum would need to be a big part of Infinite, and this can work without sprint.

Going back to a no sprint game design and building maps to those constraints first, skill jumps would be the faster method of getting up a ledge while clamber is the "punishment". Slide would just be a thing that happens while you move and hold the crouch button for longer.

ADS would be MAC blasted.

I would in the same breath also turn thrusters into a true utility that would enhance movement in small burst depending on the application. Going back to the ledge example above, for the fastest movement, just jump and thrust and you get a double jump. You'd be down a thrust for a bit, so if an enemy is on that same ledge they could thrust around and kill you.

Thrust and melee could have a spartan charge like effect, but without the enormous auto aim and range, and would just knock someone back further than a regular melee.

Thrust and crouch while in mid air could be a fast drop, maybe this is a reworked ground pound.

I think thrusters can be designed to improve on classic Halo while retaining the formula much better than sprint ever could while moving the series "forward" in a fun way, but maybe some people aren't ready for that world.

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

jviggy43 said:
Saying I dont want CoD features in Halo to appease CoD fans (because it will alter the gameplay) is not fucking gatekeeping.

that's not what you said

Tawpgun · Aug 13, 2019

jviggy43 said:
I just posted a video that proved ADS is not just cosmetic. I literally dont have words to describe how wrong you are. Do you know what that term means? Are you conflating it with the fact that the other Halo games having ADS effect gameplay to mean it doesn't do anything different in halo 5 then in past games? Because even then its still not cosmetic (and it doesn't function the same as the previous games since zoom on autos wasnt in the game, nor did it help bullet spread with auto weapons in the other games).

That seems to be your argument. Regardless of if you like them or dont like them, ADS is not a cosmetic effect in Halo (either in the old games or 5). The difference being adding ADS to guns without scopes now, which continues to add elements of CoD to the weapons that didnt previously exist. Youre just wrong, in either case, and you should stop saying that because it isnt what you actually mean, in addition to the fact that its just objectively not true.

No its not. Saying I dont want CoD features in Halo to appease CoD fans (because it will alter the gameplay) is not fucking gatekeeping. CoD fans probably dont want CoD catering to Halo fans either. In either case it has nothing to do with keeping people out and everything to do with wanting the foundation of the game to remain true to its essence and not having it attempt to homogenize the market.

We're just splitting hairs at this point.

I'm saying I don't like people saying "ADS in Halo 5 is bad because it ruined gameplay" because that implies the smart scope on the BR, DMR, Pistol etc. is somehow fundamentally different because its lumped in with "ADS in Halo 5 is bad"

All I'm saying is that it's not entirely accurate to say Halo 5 ADS affects gameplay.

I'm saying its more correct to "adding zoom to automatics in Halo 5 is bad"
Which is a valid position to take, despite me not agreeing with it.
I just don't like that one aspect being lumped into people thinking ADS on the BR is fundamentally different than zoom on the BR in other Halo's. Because people did think that and still do

Sou Da · Aug 13, 2019

Welfare said:
I think thrusters can be designed to improve on classic Halo while retaining the formula much better than sprint ever could while moving the series "forward" in a fun way, but maybe some people aren't ready for that world.

I think all the "muh classic halo" fans have their excuses pre-ordered and all of this discussion is pure navel gazing.

>Halo Infinite is Halo 3 but 4k gets made and does well
"SEE WE TOLD YOU"
>Halo Infinite is Halo 3 but 4k gets made and doesn't do well
"Uh, you see 343i fucked the minutiae of the very specific element of Halo and fans picked up on that and stayed away from the games. Also Halo 4 and 5 ruined the brand already"
>Halo Infinite continues the Halo 5 combat and sandbox design, does well
"It could have done a thousand times better if it was [insert new mechanic here] wasn't here, enjoy your fickle CoD audience and drop off"
>Halo Infinite continues the Halo 5 combat and sandbox design, doen't do well
"SEE WE TOLD YOU"

It just feels pointless to talk about at this point.

jviggy43 · Aug 13, 2019

Sou Da said:
that's not what you said

Read my post again then. I specifically said if ads has no real effect on gameplay but was used to attract CoD fans i dont want that. You chose to act like that was me outright saying I dont want them at all.

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