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Master Of Illusion

Alt Account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
856
Yes, millions of people choosing to drive an hour to work to do jobs they don't like and then drive an hour back to pay for the roof over their heads and the food in their fridge.

Such freedom. Very independence. Wow.

How is that different from people commuting for an hour to a job they don't like and then take a train back for an hour or else the "collective" will take the roof over your head away and cut down your rations?

"From each according to their ability." Such a great philosophy. Wow.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
why has the attempted implementation of communism repeatedly failed, and not just failed but repeatedly produced brutal, authoritarian regimes throughout history.
That's sphagnum's job.
I'm just going to quote one of the billion posts I've made on this subject because I'm tired of rewriting this stuff over and over:

The USSR, PRC, etc. developed as they did for specific historical reasons very much in opposition to the basic foundational elements of Marxist theory. For example, Marx believed that socialism would emerge in the most advanced western capitalist states first, because it was precisely there that the class struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie would be the most heightened. The very struggle between the classes is what would solidify the proletariat as an organized bloc fighting for its own interests. However, since the capitalist countries a.) gave in to various reforms on behalf of unions and b.) developed overall higher living standards due to super-exploitation of third world colonies, this stunted revolutionary fervor.

This did not happen in the less advanced countries. The Bolsheviks and other socialists successfully obtained the allegiance of the proletariat (though much smaller than in the western European countries) in the Russian Empire, but the civil war obliterated the entire class and infrastructure. Russia started off from a zero point, with a largely backwards peasant population, and no longer in any way resembled the kind of society that could achieve socialism, because socialism develops as a result of capitalism. Convinced that the capitalist powers would try to intervene (again) in the USSR, the Bolsheviks - who had already clamped down on power due to the revolution and war - instituted the NEP to try to rebuild society via state capitalism before a transition to socialism proper could begin. Once Lenin died, Trotsky, Stalin, and Bukharin all led various factions to figure out how to proceed and due to various circumstances (obviously often bad ones) Stalin won and proceeded to reshape the USSR.

Every other socialist state followed that model because the USSR was the predominant socialist world power, despite the fact that it had veered way off course from the actual underpinning tenets of socialism. Most of these states were underdeveloped due to colonialism and were seeking a path to quick development (think of the PRC for example, whose class war does not follow traditional Marxist proletariat-bourgeoisie-conflict theory at all but was basically a huge peasant uprising). In other words, while Marx proposed that socialism emerges because of class conflict between worker and owner, in the 20th century what we saw was political parties inserting themselves in the role of the proletariat in its absence.

And even then not one of these nations or parties claimed to have achieved communism.

To put it shortly, Communism is not communism, and the history of the 20th century Communist movement is littered with failures because the material conditions were not yet at a point where socialism could happen.

Also, "human nature" is an ideological concept, not a scientific one. What is "natural" to humans, curiously, changes according to the needs of the ruling class of a given period. It was once assumed that women were naturally docile. That black people made natural slaves. That some people were born to rule and others were born to serve. The idea that humans are all "naturally" greedy and looking out for themselves flies in the face of humanity's entire hunter-gatherer prehistory and existence as a social creature. It makes perfect sense as a condition that arises under the constraints of state society that developed after agriculture. Even so, when humans are given sufficient resources, when their material conditions are pretty well met and there isn't a lot of stratification going on, they can get along just fine. Look up the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture.
 

kamineko

Linked the Fire
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,520
Accardi-by-the-Sea
Isn't communism kind of a bogeyman these days propped up to frighten people who would otherwise benefit from socialism? other than some rather funny people on the internet, I don't really see folks advocating for classical marxism.

Theorists have since acknowledged types of power beyond the material, and I don't think people think dialectical materialism describes history anymore (well, I'm sure somebody does).

These convos seem to go sideways because totalitarian communism gets conflated with things like workers' rights or healthcare for poor people. Socialism isn't actually diet communism.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Altruism is a known thing that humans are more than capable of so I have no idea why a lot of people say that people are greedy by our very nature. We are not. We are both equal parts greedy, equal parts altruistic. It's actually kinda weird that we are altruistic in the first place. Only a few higher animals exhibit that sort of thing. The rest of the animal kingdom usually submits to everybody for themselves, even herd animals.
I mean it's simple enough to rephrase the problem as why has the attempted implementation of communism repeatedly failed, and not just failed but repeatedly produced brutal, authoritarian regimes throughout history.
I think its worth pointing out that many of these cultures and societies never really experienced a dark age and then renaissance like in Western Europe and their societal progenies. You can say that they went straight to communism from feudalism and these are the growing pains that Western Europe similarly experienced back in their dark age.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
How is that different from people commuting for an hour to a job they don't like and then take a train back for an hour or else the "collective" will take the roof over your head away and cut down your rations?
It wouldn't be remarkably different. Congrats, you've isolated the idea that there are remarkable similarities between living under market capitalism vs living under command economy state "communism". I'm looking forward to more anti-cap insights from you.

If there is a difference between the two, I'd say, it'd come down to the distribution of privilege. In market capitalism, your privilege is contingent primarily on the economic power of your parents, as well as the locale to which you're born in (urban vs suburban vs rural), your skin color and your sex. In USSR-style command economy, your privilege comes down to whether or not you're born in the state apparatus or outside of it, oh and also your sex and skin color.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
I mean it's simple enough to rephrase the problem as why has the attempted implementation of communism repeatedly failed, and not just failed but repeatedly produced brutal, authoritarian regimes throughout history.
I believe I read a pretty comprehensive post about this a couple of pages back. The tl;dr is pretty much that it seems you can't skip straight to communism through violent revolution. The original theory of Karl Marx is that Capitalism is unsustainable and will eventually collapse into socialism, and communist societies will be born from socialism.

www.resetera.com

Why hasn’t a “true” communist nation risen and survived?

Yes, but “true Communism” is a utopian ideology — it doesn’t work absent those conditions (this is also true of communism’s economic opposite, libertarianism).
 

DocTarHeel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
88
Listen mate, you shoud probably do some actual research into the nature of a communist political economy before you start throwing around accusations of what you think it would be. Start here:



Particularly focus on the bolded part in this quote. Read it, and then re-read it, and then re-read it again until you understand. Pay particular attention to the underlined bit.

Regarding the question raised by the OP, how could a singular nation exist without a government or state? You would have to have some central government or power to at the very least interact with other nations in the world.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
I think I'm more offended by the idea of statelessness working than by anybody who just follows the ideology of "everybody benefits"

Statelessness does not mean no organization. There have been successful anarchist revolutions... they just have a habit of being crushed by fascists or Marxist-Leninists. Revolutionary Catalonia had increased crop yields, better access to healthcare, and even reduced rates of alcoholism. Heck, some towns flat out didn't use currency.
 
I think the idea that China is communist comes from peoples perception of their government being authoritarian with the ability to seize control of things and people at will. I see people saying this kind of stuff a lot, especially with things like the arguments for banning Huawei out of fear of Chinese spy technology and their government using their infrastructure for nefarious means. People conflating things.
I would say the idea that China is communist comes from the fact that it still claims to be communist, even though in reality it's been decades since it was anything other than a more standard authoritarian state.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I'm going to do a bit of broad stroke history right now as an exercise of sorts.

Why did WW2 happen? Most standard liberal-democratic educated people would answer "because of the Nazis", but then the question becomes, "why did Nazis happen?". The answer to that, as far as I'm aware, is because of the economic factors leading to increased radicalization and alienation among German youth, which eventually exploded into a radical fascistic ethno-nationalist party seizing control of government (sound familiar?). Why was the economy so bad? Germany had "just" lost WWI and was buckling under the reparations imposed upon them in the Treaty of Versailles after the Allied forces won WWI. The Great Depression also did a number on them.

So, WW2 happened largely because WW1 happened.

Why did WW1 happen? The American K-12 answer is "because Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated, but this is also inaccurate. While it's true Ferdinand's death provided the trigger for WWI, WWI actually happened because Germany was one of the strongest and richest countries as Europe exited the 19th century, and it yearned to flex its muscles over Europe because imperialism was still the norm of the day. A country back then could expand only through imperialism as liberalization of philosophy and governance (as well as multiple worldwide revolutons) eroded the alternative avenue of colonialism. Germany, as an individual geopolitical entity, was also formed at the tail end of the 19th century via imperial conquest so imperialism was baked into the DNA of German society back then.

What is the point of all this? The point is, Germany was a warmonger of a country for a good 50 years. Today, they're known for good cars, a relatively strong economy, Angela Merkel and pushing austerity on members of the EU. The metapoint is that societies can change and are not fixed, and also they're driven by much greater forces than this or that ideology.

Historical events happen primarily due to socio-economic pressures. One major event sets up the stage for the next one. Saying "all communist parties have become authoritarian and therefore communism is inherently violent" is ignoring the socio-economic factors that push violently revolutionary parties into authoritarianism. Germany was an imperialist warmonger state up until the point where it stopped being one. You see this same train of thought in Islamophobia. All the poor Muslim countries are unstable and violent, why? It must be because Islam is a fundamentally violent ideology. It isn't, the Arabic world has had its share of progressive intellectual golden ages as well as its share of regressive and oppressive despotisms, just like the Christian world, just like the Greco-Roman world. Ideologies come and go, but culture and material conditions remain a constant mover of people and nations.

(I am not a historian by trade. There may be some factual and theoretical inaccuracies here. I welcome any corrections and elaborations.)
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
Sounds like something that 19th century philosophers, extremely priviledged people with a tenous grasp on the actual struggles of the working clase, may have thought would work if we bypass what makes humans tick. The truth is that communism is counteractive to human nature, everyone will always want things to benefit them in some way, and the truth is not everyone will always be happy 100% of the time with their enviroment. It is something that simply is not viable and will never be. A Star Trek utopian society will never be achieved because human nature means no matter what, someone will always be an outsider to the group due to our inherent differences.


Ah "human nature" the thing that makes us all the same but also gives us all inherent differences ... it's as if it's fucking made up.
 
Oct 29, 2017
909
Because the CIA would stage coups and install dictators in any country that tried.
Partially because communism in one country doesn't really work and the rest of the world is already so deeply ingrained in capitalism.
Basically these two. Capitalism is all about competition and endless growth. Communism by design has entirely different goals, and is simply not built to compete with Capitalism economically. Add that to the fact that capitalist states love to meddle and squash any regime that doesn't match them perfectly, and you have your answer.
 

MegaMix

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
786
A lot of people seem to be talking over each other:

- "Communism" means different things to different people. Yes even "true Communism". Some see true Communism as what the Soviet Union was. Others see it as an all knowing super computer able to do logistics on a fly by a publicly owned Amazon company. For others it is an economy where the market place is gradually replaced by libraries where you can rent almost any item you want (like this tool library).* And to others it is some type of post-scarcity Star Trek economy.

- There is also the means of how this occurs. To some they imagine an overnight "revolution" where Capitalism is crumbled and the glorious Communist state rises. Others see this coming democratically over the course of decades, if not centuries of pushes for economic control by the people, in similar fashion how democracy came about from monarchy. While others believe that in time there will eventually be no more work for human beings to do since robots and computers will replace us, thus things like UBI, public say in large conglomerates, and the like will quickly occur. So you'll see these things be expanded over time until they completely dominate the economy. Others believe that somethign similar to the kibbutz in Israel will start appearing in nations and overtime enough people will "drop out" of regular society to join them.

This is why arguments keep going into circles. Communist opposers bring up how the Iron Curtain nations were incredibly authoritarian, had full control of culture, and the quality of life was subpar at best. While Communist supporters will keep saying that those nations weren't Communist since that isn't their version of Communism. And thus the conversations keeps going round and round without end with both sides shaking their heads thinking "they just don't get it!"


*There actually is a library where you can check out like almost anything, even tractors and cars, but I can't find the video any longer.
 

Thomas

Member
Dec 11, 2017
62
Sweden
Particularly focus on the bolded part in this quote. Read it, and then re-read it, and then re-read it again until you understand. Pay particular attention to the underlined bit.

That's a theoretical fantasy, when trying to implement in the real world it has always ended in oppression and death.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
And where do you think the current economic system is leading?

That's not a good counter argument for communism.

Isn't communism kind of a bogeyman these days propped up to frighten people who would otherwise benefit from socialism? other than some rather funny people on the internet, I don't really see folks advocating for classical marxism.

Theorists have since acknowledged types of power beyond the material, and I don't think people think dialectical materialism describes history anymore (well, I'm sure somebody does).

These convos seem to go sideways because totalitarian communism gets conflated with things like workers' rights or healthcare for poor people. Socialism isn't actually diet communism.

Yes, and no. In the past it was as brutal as advertised, and its direct impact on nations created the current Russia and China governments directly and indirectly. There are folks out there who do this, some keep their head down more than others but the communist ideology never died. You don't want these people to gain power over the government in your country. Ever. Socialism as an ideology has much to offer, but not communism. It's a fine philosophy, which is terrible in practice.

Except communism isn't an ideology exclusive to theory, it has a large body count. And those who tried have a really difficult time getting over the dictatorship part of dictatorship of the proletariat process.

Another concerning factor is that Communism, particularly from the USSR, is thoroughly embedded within socialist cultures and terms. Too many socialists see those signs with affection rather than a big red flag - which it does to non-socialists. For good reason.
 
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travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
That's not a good counter argument for communism.

Capitalism is an economic system that works By exploitation of natural resources and maintains itself through the production of waste.

Wake the fuck up and realize the existential crisis that is global climate change and the fact that the way we produce and distribute resources is the cause.

Stop punishing yourself because your parents/grandparents fucked up. There is another way to make and distribute things that won't end up killing you.
 

DLbeast

Member
Feb 11, 2019
54
Being free and being free? Id beckon those who lived in Communism, have a better idea of what it was like, versus someone who has not, and no one can ever account, much less hide behind a well-articulated response, to convince those who have not experienced it. Sometimes being naive or ignorant, not because one can't comprehend the concept, or understand the words, which describe, but is as such, for the comprehension of a failed real life experience.


Drop mic.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Capitalism is an economic system that works By exploitation of natural resources and maintains itself through the production of waste.

Wake the fuck up and realize the existential crisis that is global climate change and the fact that the way we produce and distribute resources is the cause.

Stop punishing yourself because your parents/grandparents fucked up. There is another way to make and distribute things that won't end up killing you.

What's missing her is an actual argument for communism. Yeah, capitalism is terrible - what's better about communism? Why would I bother replacing a right wing boot to my neck with a left wing one?

Being free and being free? Id beckon those who lived in Communism, have a better idea of what it was like, versus someone who has not, and no one can ever account, much less hide behind a well-articulated response, to convince those who have not experienced it. Sometimes being naive or ignorant, not because one can't comprehend the concept, or understand the words, which describe, but is as such, for the comprehension of a failed real life experience.


Drop mic.

Where have you experienced this communism?
 

Atraveller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,308
To the people saying under capitalism you have the freedom to choose your own housing or whatever. Such confidence in the social mobility of America lol. As if people act outside of the socio-economical factors that limit them by design of the ultra-rich.

And about "postscarcity is impossible therefore communism is impossible", the world already produces more food than it consumes, yet people still starve daily. Capitalism isn't the most efficient way of allocating resources.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
It can't get worse than destroying the planet.

Capitalism just got there first as it was the ideological winner against communism. Not that communism was immune for these mistakes.

And about "postscarcity is impossible therefore communism is impossible", the world already produces more food than it consumes, yet people still starve daily. Capitalism isn't the most efficient way of allocating resources.

No, it isn't. Which communist countries did?
 

KimiNewt

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,749
Because people lack motivation to do their job if there's no incentive to move forward or have a particular kind of job. Might we well make little effort in the easiest job
 

DLbeast

Member
Feb 11, 2019
54
To the people saying under capitalism you have the freedom to choose your own housing or whatever. Such confidence in the social mobility of America lol. As if people act outside of the socio-economical factors that limit them by design of the ultra-rich.

And about "postscarcity is impossible therefore communism is impossible", the world already produces more food than it consumes, yet people still starve daily. Capitalism isn't the most efficient way of allocating resources.

I have not seen a better way? Hitlers Socialism, Stalin's Communism, Americas Capitalism. Rome? What exactly is it you seek? People starving? Producing more than it can consume? What a cop out. I've seen a 100k a yr businessman shift to being homeless starving, for many different reasons! Much less, ive seen a 6-year-old Somalian child starving! One is not the same as the other, but sad just the same. Great job of generalizing to suit a narrative.
 

Atraveller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,308
No, it isn't. Which communist countries did?
What communist countries?
I have not seen a better way? Hitlers Socialism, Stalin's Communism, Americas Capitalism. Rome? What exactly is it you seek? People starving? Producing more than it can consume? What a cop out. I've seen a 100k a yr businessman shift to being homeless starving, for many different reasons! Much less, ive seen a 6-year-old Somalian child starving! One is not the same as the other, but sad just the same. Great job of generalizing to suit a narrative.
Are you on drugs?
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I have not seen a better way? Hitlers Socialism, Stalin's Communism, Americas Capitalism. Rome?
The point is to find a better way and to make it happen, and that can't happen if everyone says "capitalism's best" or "capitalism isn't perfect but it's the best we got". The idea is to always strive for better.

What exactly is it you seek? People starving?
Less people starving. Less people homeless. Increasing food stamps and build public housing and pay for it with more taxes on corporations?

Just giving away the food a grocery would otherwise throw out at the end of the business day would save so much food but no, they can't do that for many reasons I don't really care to go into right now.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
Yes, millions of people choosing to drive an hour to work to do jobs they don't like and then drive an hour back to pay for the roof over their heads and the food in their fridge.

Such freedom. Very independence. Wow.

At least they have the freedom to do something they like...
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
A communist country can't exist surrounded by super powers that are capitalists. Capital is liquid. It will leave if there is a better return somewhere else.

The whole"human nature is greed" is dumb
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
What's missing her is an actual argument for communism. Yeah, capitalism is terrible - what's better about communism? Why would I bother replacing a right wing boot to my neck with a left wing one?


Because global warming is real and the only way to combat it is to reorganize material production and social relations to something that is "communism" in all but name.

If you want to call it "project save our ass from burning to death" then so be it but it will have fundamental economic and social structures where the needs of the community will be put above the needs of the individual and where production won't be for the profit of a minority but the good of all.
 

DLbeast

Member
Feb 11, 2019
54
The point is to find a better way and to make it happen, and that can't happen if everyone says "capitalism's best" or "capitalism isn't perfect but it's the best we got". The idea is to always strive for better.


Less people starving. Less people homeless. Increasing food stamps and build public housing and pay for it with more taxes on corporations?

Just giving away the food a grocery would otherwise throw out at the end of the business day would save so much food but no, they can't do that for many reasons I don't really care to go into right now.

Half of what you seeking happens all the time. No one is saying there is not a better way, but currently give me an example of what is? That's where it gets uncomfortable. You cant. To be honest, and think about it long and hard: A free society is doomed to fail.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
A communist country can't exist surrounded by super powers that are capitalists. Capital is liquid. It will leave if there is a better return somewhere else.

The whole"human nature is greed" is dumb
We're seeing this a bit now in Vietnam. Foreign investors are leaving China and finding more agreeable conditions for their money in Vietnam.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Because global warming is real and the only way to combat it is to reorganize material production and social relations to something that is "communism" in all but name.

If you want to call it "project save our ass from burning to death" then so be it but it will have fundamental economic and social structures where the needs of the community will be put above the needs of the individual and where production won't be for the profit of a minority but the good of all.

This has an appeal. However, who's going to do all this for us? What scale are we talking about? US only, worldwide? Who gets to call the shots? How would they counter various countries not abiding that, like America? And what stops this from becoming a dictatorship and the purges start up?
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
At least they have the freedom to do something they like...
That post was mostly facetious but really, do you think everyone in the USSR was miserable 24/7, and never did anything they liked? Never sang a song, never played with their children or their friends, never cooked a nice meal for themselves or others, never drew art, never wrote a book?

They did it when they weren't doing state-mandatory labor or whatever the fuck people think actually happened there (I'm not well read on USSR history so I can't go into detail on this).

Similarly, when you have free time that's not taken up by your responsibilities you also use that time to enjoy life.

I'm not going to pretend life in the USSR was good but it's ridiculous to suggest they had no freedom at all nor any joy in their life. There is no human society in history, no matter how despotic, where people were completely joyless because such a society would quickly kill itself and cease to be a society. The only cases where it's possible to amass a group of people and deny them all joy is in concentration camps. I seriously doubt the USSR was one giant concentration camp if only because administering it would be a logistic impossibility.

maslow-hierachy-of-needs-min.jpg


Mazlowe's hierarchy of needs is fulfilled in some way or another. Maybe some people's needs are fulfilled more fully than others, maybe some people are malnourished in some areas, but yes, broadly, life goes on. We know this because they're alive. When people lose their reasons to live they tend to commit suicide. The suicide rate in the USSR by the end of 1984 was 29.4 per 100,000 inhabitants. For reference, the US rate is 13.7 per 100,000 people.
Half of what you seeking happens all the time. No one is saying there is not a better way, but currently give me an example of what is? That's where it gets uncomfortable. You cant. To be honest, and think about it long and hard: A free society is doomed to fail.
What do you even mean?

Everything proposed in here: https://berniesanders.com/issues/
And everything proposed in here: https://elizabethwarren.com/issues?&mkwid=so1a1I3xB|pcrid|355237792263|pkw|elizabeth warren|pmt|p|pdv|c|slid||product||pgrid|71352540229|ptaid|kwd-171777258|&pgrid=71352540229&ptaid=kwd-171777258&source=WFP2019-LB-GS-NAT&subsource=GS-71352540229-elizabeth warren-p-355237792263&utm_source=GS&utm_campaign=WFP2019-LB-GS-NAT&utm_term=Elizabeth warren-355237792263&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjYHpBRC4ARIsAI-3GkFsK7eL7A-2qrNtG6oZV2t1JhfcxRsY4wgm8MhzaWZooIA9pdtz8OMaAveqEALw_wcB&refcode=WFP2019-LB-GS-NAT&refcode2=GS-71352540229-elizabeth warren-p-355237792263

Would be a "better way". Note, these are "proposals", meaning they're not currently happening, meaning it's something we can do.
 
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Atraveller

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,308
I wish i was, maybe judge me less, and challenge your own assertiveness.
A mode of production and distribution that doesn't aim at pure profit (which is what Capitalism is about), is what Earth needs. Or hell, you don't even need communism, just UBI, or other welfare policies that don't involve belittling poor people would be nice, but as mentioned before in this thread, Capitalism is excellent at defending itself. While the capital is still amassed at the top, and pursuing profit is still the prime directive, people will starve, because rich people hate taxes.
 

Trisc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,488
It can't get worse than destroying the planet.
Don't be silly; capitalism isn't going to destroy the planet.

It's just going to make it inhospitable for much of the planet's flora and fauna. A few million years down the line, complex organisms like the ones we have today will return to Earth, but it won't be humanity, because capitalism will have completely destroyed the human race.
A mode of production and distribution that doesn't aim at pure profit (which is what Capitalism is about), is what Earth needs. Or hell, you don't even need communism, just UBI, or other welfare policies that don't involve belittling poor people would be nice, but as mentioned before in this thread, Capitalism is excellent at defending itself. While the capital is still amassed at the top, and pursuing profit is still the prime directive, people will starve, because rich people hate taxes.
Universal basic income is a very temporary solution to the problems caused by capitalism. It's an adhesive bandage slapped onto an open wound. Other sweeping changes, such as syndicalizing industrial production, would need to be made alongside UBI for it to be truly effective.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,860
It can only work if everyone is willing, on the same page, and devoid of ambition. As such, it's nearly impossible to work, especially on a country scale. On small communities, it guess it might work. But anything even remotely big is bound to have someone that will be trying to take over and fuck things up for their own interest.

Communism, as good as it could be, is just a dream. Humans are way too fucked up to really live in such a way.
 

Bonafide

Member
Oct 11, 2018
936
Don't be silly; capitalism isn't going to destroy the planet.

It's just going to make it inhospitable for much of the planet's flora and fauna. A few million years down the line, complex organisms like the ones we have today will return to Earth, but it won't be humanity, because capitalism will have completely destroyed the human race.
I
But that's okay because there is nothing we can do / there are no other options / its the best we can come up with / we have "freedom" / lets only do minor changes im sure we have all the time in the world to play this game while the environment crumbles and facism slides right in to take over/ its just human nature

or whatever is talking point of the day to encourage us to change nothing substantial about how we deal with the powerful